My name explanation

[FORGEThybrids]

I have spent almost $8000 on replacing batteries in my hybrid cars (Honda Insight, Civic Hybrid, and Prius) over the last several years.

Never again.

The replacement costs wiped-out any gasoline savings the hybrid car gave me. (Meanwhile my Beetle TDI just keeps chugging-along with no battery failures.) My next car will NOT by a hybrid..... forget hybrids

 

[vwmk4]

Well put, IMO the complexity of the H-B is also a concern ?
But the last few years the TDI has gone from a DIY auto to
very complex as have gassers.

 

[TDI57]

I have spent almost $8000 on replacing batteries in my hybrid cars (Honda Insight, Civic Hybrid, and Prius) other the last several years.

Never again.

The replacement costs wiped-out any gasoline savings the hybrid car gave me. (Meanwhile my Beetle TDI just keeps chugging-along with no battery failures.) My next car will NOT by a hybrid..... forget hybrids

Makes you wonder about the push for all electrics. What about all the battery manufacturing/disposal processes, how is that going to be harmless to the environment? I have a hard enough time keeping my batteries fresh in my poer tools. ugh.

 

[oilhammer]

I have spent almost $8000 on replacing batteries in my hybrid cars (Honda Insight, Civic Hybrid, and Prius) other the last several years.

Well either you are really gullible, or just a troll.

 

[bmali98]

I didn't think you could replace a battery bank in any one of those cars for less than 8k, let alone all 3.

 

[runonbeer]

Troll food:

Lets say "several" years = 4 years.

$8000/4= $2000/year

$2000/3 cars= $666 per car, per year.

Not bad. I easily spend that on my 3 TDI cars every year and I don't even pay for labor.

By contrast, I bought my wife a 2013 Nissan Leaf last February and the first time I ever spent any money on it was just today. Bought some wiper blades and a bottle of rain-x.

 

[redbarron55]

It would take a HPFP failure to cost that much in a CR TDI.
Having a 2002 Prius for 13 years and a battery rebuild and a TDI I still spent more than twice as much on my 2009 TDI JSW. (DPF,Timing belts x2, DMF, sunroof leaks,etc)
Now I have a 2009 and 2013 JSWs because my wife loves them the Prius went to a needy son. It lasted 2 weeks before it was totaled.
The 2009 has around 250,000 miles and the 2013 has 60,000 miles.
Either could grenade ant any time so the whole TDI thing is a gamble on expensive trouble.
Ya pays yur money and takes ur chances.

 

[Perfectreign]

$2000/3 cars= $666 per car, per year.

So, you're saying that hybrid cars are the devil's work?

 

[keaton85]

Once electric cars are main stream it will be a normal recycling program for the batteries at a reasonable rate I suspect. Look at Tesla, they have a lifetime warranty on some of their vehicles, so they must have a good method of recycling almost all of the old batteries.

Diesel is definitely not the answer but is a great use of fuel in my opinion, although ethanol would be a much better alternative if used wide spread like in brazil. Even a diesel can run on ethanol if converted correctly. amazing fuel in my opinion, plus renewable....

 

[FORGEThybrids]

NiMH batteries used in hybrids are landfill safe (ditto Lithium ion batteries used in EVs). The skepticism confuses me. Why would I lie? The hybrid batteries DO wear-out eventually. Honda/Toyota charge $2000 for a new battery, plus 500-600 dollars for labor/taxes. (Another option is a used battery for $1400+tax but I always chose new.)

So almost 8000 dollars across my three hybrids.

 

[El Dobro]

I'll stick with my Volt, virtually no history on battery problems with the Volt batteries.

 

[NarfBLAST]

NiMH batteries used in hybrids are landfill safe (ditto Lithium ion batteries used in EVs). The skepticism confuses me. Why would I lie? The hybrid batteries DO wear-out eventually. Honda/Toyota charge $2000 for a new battery, plus 500-600 dollars for labor/taxes. (Another option is a used battery for $1400+tax but I always chose new.)

So almost 8000 dollars across my three hybrids.

WOW! If this is true then Hybrid batteries are so much cheaper than I thought! That is amazing I thought they cost five times that much! I thought you had to junk your Hybrid if the battery failed but I could definetly afford to put a new battey in every five years at those rates I bet batteries cost less than fuel.

 

[NarfBLAST]

at those rates I bet batteries cost less than fuel.

Example:

Bought a Kia Forte 5 door with 2.0L gasoline engine at 6 speed manual trans it gets 8L/100km

Could have got a hybrid hatch that gets 6L/100km

Drive 20,000 km per year

100,000 km in 5 years

2L/100 km x 100,000 km = 2000 L extra fuel

Fuel has averaged $1 per liter here so math is easy again $2000 in fuel savings!

Oh, darn, its a wash.

Unless its a plug-in hybrid, then it could be possible to save the other $6000 in fuel and instead pay ??? dollars in electricity depending on where you plug it in.

Again, I had no idea batteries were so darn CHEAP!

 

[KLXD]

Wait, you have to pay when you plug your car in???

 

[1.9ZOOK]

I'm thinkin' bout sumptin a little simpler...

 

[rwolff]

$2000/3 cars= $666 per car, per year.

I'd say that's one hell of an expense.

 

[VeeDubTDI]

Oftentimes, Honda hybrids can be brought back to life with a deep recharge of the batteries, or a replacement of individual cells. My brother has a 2004 Civic hybrid that the dealer condemned as needing a new battery, but the local shop that is familiar with them did a deep charge of the battery and it has been fine for the better part of six months.

 

[runonbeer]

Yes the individual modules for my wife's Leaf can be replaced and they're around $400 each. A full pack is about $5000.

I'd like to learn more about the BMS in these packs because it is indeed likely that you could even revive a weak module by either doing a charge balance or even just replacing weak cells within the module.

 

[VeeDubTDI]

Lots and lots of discussion online about the Honda battery packs that I've read. I dabbled in some information about the Leaf batteries, as well, but most of what I was looking for was specific to Honda.

 

[dropnosky]

NiMH batteries used in hybrids are landfill safe (ditto Lithium ion batteries used in EVs). The skepticism confuses me. Why would I lie? The hybrid batteries DO wear-out eventually. Honda/Toyota charge $2000 for a new battery, plus 500-600 dollars for labor/taxes. (Another option is a used battery for $1400+tax but I always chose new.)

So almost 8000 dollars across my three hybrids.

You went with the most expensive solution possible to the problem, at the most expensive repair location, with the most expensive parts, by choice, when other alternatives are available.

That decision chain makes ANY car a raid on the wallet. It doesnt really single out hybrids.

 

[VeeDubTDI]

You went with the most expensive solution possible to the problem, at the most expensive repair location, with the most expensive parts, by choice, when other alternatives are available.
That decision chain makes ANY car a raid on the wallet. It doesnt really single out hybrids.

Correct. Following the same philosophy with TDIs will result in a LOT of unnecessary money spent, and many times without the problems being resolved.

 

[FORGEThybrids]

Oftentimes, Honda hybrids can be brought back to life with a deep recharge of the batteries, or a replacement of individual cells.

Yeah I could buy a deep discharger/charger for 700 dollars, or replace cells at the cost of losing a weekend vacation. People who have done that found the battery died within a year anyway, because the batteries are 10+ years old. Now Honda owners are recommending "just buy new" and save a lot of hassle.

 

[FORGEThybrids]

You went with the most expensive solution possible to the problem, at the most expensive repair location, with the most expensive parts, by choice, when other alternatives are available.

As one of my coworkers said: "Your time has value too." If I spend a weekend rebuilding a battery (to replace dead cells) then I've lost my relaxation/vacation time and I'm not willing to give that up. Instead of new I could buy "refurb" batteries, or battery chargers to condition the existing pack, which costs 700-1400 dollars plus tax/installation fee. BUT as I mentioned in my last post, people who do that have discovered the battery dies within a year anyway..... so they end-up buying new. Just read the stories at priuschat or insightcentral.

They have a common sentence: "Avoid used or refurb batteries, and buy new from a private shop," like Bumblebee, Greentec, etc

 

[oilhammer]

If you spend a "weekend" to rebuild the battery and replace the bad cells, you shouldn't be working on cars and you should just leave it to someone else who is a better steward of time.

 

[FORGEThybrids]

Even the professionals take several DAYS because they charge/discharge/charge/discharge/etc to determine which cells are good, and which are bad

I bet batteries cost less than fuel.

I'm a highway driver so I only look at the EPA's highway rating (City drivers should buy a Leaf ):

Civic Hybrid (or Prius) is 48mpg and 25,000 dollars + 2500 for eventual high-voltage battery replacement

Civic HF is 42mpg and 18,000 with no HV battery. Gasoline is $2 but let's assume this is temporary & it bounces back to $3/gallon in a year or two.

Hybrid == 6.25 cents per mile
HF == 7.142 cents per mile

Price premium of hybrid == $9500. So you would have to drive that hybrid 1 million miles just to reach the breakeven point with the Civic HF. Even if you didn't like the Civic HF and chose some other 40+ mpg conventional car (like Focus 1.0 or Cruze Eco or Corolla Eco or TDI) the math still hurts the hybrid. You still have to drive the hybrid between 0.5 and 1 million miles to make-up its premium pricetag + 2500 HV battery replacement.

 

[belome]

Keep in mind, there are a lot of people spending a grand or more at the dealer for timing belts every 100k or so depending on your TDI. That adds up too.

 

[oilhammer]

Even the professionals take several DAYS.

Um, no, WE do not.

 

[Geordi]

Somewhere you have been getting some VERY poor advice, or the quality of the Honda system is not up to even the level of the Ford hybrid system.

Three different vehicles - 2 Mercury Mariner hybrids (2005) and one 2006 Escape hybrid, over 475,000 miles collectively among them.

2 sets of brake pads, two replacements of the motor electronic coolant pumps (recall) and gasoline and tires. That is it, never batteries. According to the computer, the batteries still have over 80% of their original capacity, of which the computer only ever allowed a 60% range to be utilized... So I could lose another 20% and STILL not see any degradation in performance.

What is Honda doing different?

 

[LogicBomb]

Um, no, WE do not.

Unless you stand over them, telling them how to do it correctly because Billy Bob on the forums knows better than everyone and he gave you explicit instructions on how it should be down. And then after all that, yes it takes days, and you get charged accordingly.

 

[Perfectreign]

although ethanol would be a much better alternative if used wide spread like in brazil. Even a diesel can run on ethanol if converted correctly. amazing fuel in my opinion, plus renewable....

Not a big fan of ethanol, especially as the US has tried to implement.

My Avalanche can run on e85 (85% ethanol) so I've tried it.

Basically, I get about 30% less mileage on a tank. My average on the Avalanche is 14 MPG, I would get just under 10MPG. That means I'd get maybe 300 miles on a 30 gallon tank.

Also, the ethanol here is made for some unfathomable reason (subsidies!) from Corn.

My FIL wrote for a chemical processing magazine. He wrote often about using such items as biotrash and other things for producing Ethanol. (Article here.)

To the person below who mentioned the volt, that is a perfect example of what to do. Have a non-polluting battery (little rare earth elements) with a GDI or CRD engine.