My Engine Mount Problem (with pics)

Wingnut

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 10, 2002
Location
Toronto & Whitby
TDI
Silver 2003 Jetta Wagon
Many of you know already, but here is what happened. While driving home from work, I was accelerating hard from 1st to 2nd gear. Then I heard a klunck and the whole car started shaking. The passenger side engine mount had let go. Not the usual suspect (the two top bolts that connect the upper mount to the lower mount). It was the bolts that hold the mount to the engine. There are 3 mounting points. One was broken on the block & the other 2 bolts just sheared off. I think the broken piece on the block was broken from my previous accident last year, leaving the remaining two left holding the engine? And with my higher than stock torque /images/graemlins/wink.gif, the remaining two could not hold it?

Here is what a dropped engine looks like:


Here is the broken mounting point on the block (yellow arrow):


The other two mounting points were intact, but the bolts were broken off inside:


Given the location of the broken bolts, I couldn't get an electric drill in the tight engine compartment. I was going to rent an air compressor & use a smaller air drill, but while at the Home Depot tool rental section, I found this nifty drill:


It was certainly more heavy duty than I needed, but was only $15 to rent instead of $25 for the air compressor, so I gave it a try:


It fit in there perfectly and made quick work of the broken bolt. I only had to drill it once & a small easyout took it out on the first try:


The rag was there to stop shavings from falling into the timing belt. I didn't catch all of them, so I used an extendable magnet to retrieve the lost shavings from down in the timing belt:


The lower bolt was a little harder to remove. After trying several different easyouts, I couldnt get the broken piece of bolt to budge. I had to buy a better (stronger) style, but still needed heat to get it to budge. Luckily, it was in a very accessable area through the wheel well. Here is my high tech torch kit that I used:


Laugh all you want, it got yhe job done /images/graemlins/tongue.gif:


Here are the two extracted bolt pieces with their respective removal tools (the small one was bent trying to get the bottom bolt out). It worked fine for the upper one:


I have yet to receive my new mount, so I will update the story when I put it back together. I also hope to have a fabricated mounting point for that broken third mounting position. Stay tuned.
 

VelvetFoot

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 17, 2001
Location
Sand Lake, NY
TDI
NB, 2000, Yellow
Great pics! Great job in salvaging the engine. You're going to have a mounting point fabricated and welded to the block?
 

tongsli

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jan 31, 2000
Location
Baltimore, MD
TDI
2000 Jetta TDI, 2004, Jetta Wagon TDI PD
Nigel,

Man oh man. Do you know the exact cause of the failure? You mention your recent accident. Any way to tell if the damage was a result of it?

Also, I assume you're on your second timing belt?

Lito
 

Herm TDI

Vendor
Joined
Nov 21, 2001
Location
Richmond, Maine...The far side of Witsend
TDI
2002 Golf GLS Malone Stage 3, P+520 nozzles, 11MM Inj pump, Sachs VR6 clutch, Stelth Race Pipe, Immo Deleat, EGR Deleat
<font color="red"> WARNING...DANGER...STOP ...NO NOT START THAT ENGINE IF YOU ALREADY HAVEN'T </font>

If you look at the 3rd photo of the timing belt (TB)tensioner...you see that the TB tensioner locking tang is not engaged into the recess to properly secure the TB tensioner. That TB can and will loosen and result is another damaged engine. Please correct the tensioner ASAP
 

Wingnut

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 10, 2002
Location
Toronto & Whitby
TDI
Silver 2003 Jetta Wagon
Lito,

The broken piece of the block seemed to have rust on the broken part, so that would indicate it happened way before the 2 bolt failures. I can ony assume that it broke when I was side swipped last year since I was hid on the passenger front corner. So if that assumption is correct, I have been running with only 2 bolts instead of 3 for the last 6 months. And given the added tourque of injectors & a chip, I guess just the two could not hold any longer. Although I did take the chip out for winter, the bolts were probably weakened prior to its removal. I have purchased some higher grade bolts as replacements, so even if I didn't repair that third mounting point, the higher grade bolts may still hold it, but I will not take that chance. Anyone know the grade of the stock bolts? I will be using 10.9 as replacements.

Herm,

Thanks for the tip. I have not started it since I shut it down after the failure. I did notice the belt was more loose than it should be. I will repair the tensioner before restart. Do you think I should replace it while I'm in there or just readjust it? It was replaced at my last TB change last year, so it only has about 35k miles on it.

You can also see some wear marks on the outer edge of the fuel pump sprocket. That is where it rubbed the mount after the failure. I suspect that this caused the timing adjustment to slip as well. I will have to readjust the injection timing once the car is back together.

Thanks again.

Nig
 

Wingnut

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 10, 2002
Location
Toronto & Whitby
TDI
Silver 2003 Jetta Wagon
I think I will just readjust the tensioner & wait till the next reccommended change in another 45k km (I am at 140k km now). Do I need to do anything special before adjusting the tensioner? Should I lock the cam & follow the rest of the TB procedure? Or can I just tighten it up & turn the engine a few revolutions to make sure everything clears? I guess I will need to borrow some tools. Anyone in the GTA that can lend me some TB tools?

Thanks.
 

Wingnut

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 10, 2002
Location
Toronto & Whitby
TDI
Silver 2003 Jetta Wagon
Hey Brad. If that fits the A4 tensioner, I will take you up on your offer. Since it was running after it fell, I am pretty certain the belt didn't skip a tooth. So think it should be OK to just fix & tighten the tensioner. As it happens, I will be in Oshawa tomorrow. If you get this before you leave for work, can you bring it? I'll send you an e-mail in case you don't see this.

Thanks.
 

runonbeer

Maintenance EnthusiastVendor
Joined
Apr 15, 2002
Location
Austin, TX/Chapel Hill, NC
TDI
'00 Golf 02M, '10 Golf 02E, '02 UTE 02M
You're gonna need to get that belt nearly off to loosen that tensioner enough to get it to rotate back around into its slot. You will need the pump tool and the cam lock. You may not have to remove the cam sprocket but you will at least need to loosen the bolt and pop it off its taper in order to properly re set the tension. This also means you'll have to loosent the IP sprockt bolts (the three little stretch bolts.) and replace them.
Wow, what a pain. I feel for you man! /images/graemlins/frown.gif
 

Wingnut

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 10, 2002
Location
Toronto & Whitby
TDI
Silver 2003 Jetta Wagon
Thanks for your input Rob. I was hoping to just be able to loosen the tensioner, rotate it back to its proper position & then retighten. Here is what really puzzles me though. The tensioner must have been installed this way right from the start. I can't imagine it got to its current position on its own. Even if it could have jumped out of its mounting hole, it would have left marks as it spun to its current location. I took some more pics to identify the relation of the tabs location to where it is supposed to be:

This is where the tab is supposed to be:


Here is where he tab is. Note that there are no scratch marks that would indicate that it moved there on its own:


Now here is front view of the tensioner. I did not install this belt & tensioner, so I am not familiar with it. But are these marks supposed to line up?


So, can I just loosen, turn, adjust & retighten the tensioner without doing anything else? Or do I have to follow the TB procedure & lock the cam & all that other stuff? The belt is prety loose at the moment. There is maybe a 1/4 inch gap in the belt between the roller & the belt in the span from the cam sprocket to the injection pump sprocket when I put pressure on it.


I do have the IP bolts sorted out. I replace the 3 bolts when I got my Vag-com & adjusted my timing last year. Thanks to all who are offering assistance. This is a great site. /images/graemlins/grin.gif
 

Wingnut

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 10, 2002
Location
Toronto & Whitby
TDI
Silver 2003 Jetta Wagon
I'm wondering that myself VF. I'm starting to contemplate going ahead and doing the whole TB replacement now. As Brian mentioned, I'm almost half way there already. If I put the long life belt on, I would change the water pump too. This is turning out to be more than I wanted to do, but I might as well get it over with. Now I just need to get the parts & the tools before the weekend!!!
 

GeWilli

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 6, 1999
Location
lost to new england
TDI
none in the fleet (99.5 Golf RIP, 96 B4V sold)
i don't know if you want to do it or not but JETah fabricated a 'fix' for a broken motor mount recently.

I would strongly suggest working something out to get 3 bolts attached.

From what I could find welding cast Iron ain't all that reliable without adding so much heat that you run the risk of distoring the #1 cylinder....

but Drivbiwire welded pot metal once so I guess anything's possible...

replace the stuff - belt and tensioner - esp with the fuzzy blocks that are visible there and with it being out of the notch....
 

Wingnut

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 10, 2002
Location
Toronto & Whitby
TDI
Silver 2003 Jetta Wagon
Thanks Geoff. I have already contacted Jettah about his experiences & he has forwarded me the pictures of his repair. His is quite good actually, but I don't have the same access to equipment he does. I am going to use a piece of angle iron & mount it to 2 good spots on the block & use it as a mounting point for the third bolt. I will be shaping it this weekend & will post pictures after.

Given the urgency of the job, maybe I should just get the TB parts at the dealer and worry about the long life belt at the next interval? I can't wait for the parts to come in by mail. My loaner car will no longer be available after this weekend. So it looks like I will be doing the complete TB change after all. It sucks to be forced into doing it, but I would rather be safe than sorry.
 

Wingnut

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 10, 2002
Location
Toronto & Whitby
TDI
Silver 2003 Jetta Wagon
[ QUOTE ]
Seems silly to not put the longer life belt on at this point.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not if I can't get it before the weekend!!!

But I think I can. Brian Harrison of Roseland Technical Services is taking care of me. Highly recommended for anyone who needs quality parts at an excellent price!!!
 

Wingnut

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 10, 2002
Location
Toronto & Whitby
TDI
Silver 2003 Jetta Wagon
Just a quick update. I am just waiting for the parts, but I was able to fabricate the 3rd mounting point with a couple of spare hours before work this morning. Here is what I used to make it:


After some measuring, cutting, more measuring, some grinding, more measuring and a bit of drilling, I came out with this:


With it installed, there will be 2 mounting points to hold the bracket to the block. The third hole I have not drilled yet, but will be in the original location. I will use a nut on the back of the bracket to hold the mount bolt in place:


This repair is very similar to the fix that Marty did. But he had the luxury of having the block out of the car and welding equipment to fabricate the repair. All I had was the materials, a grinding wheel & cutting disc. I just hope it holds up like his did. This is Marty's fabricated bracket:



Thanks again Marty for the encouragement & the inspiration.
 

Wingnut

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 10, 2002
Location
Toronto & Whitby
TDI
Silver 2003 Jetta Wagon
Well, my car is up & running again. The new mount is definatelty stronger than it was before it broke. With the combination of the 3rd mounting point (which I didn't have before) & the harder grade bolts, I feel very comfortable putting the pedal to the floor without worring about the mount falling of the block again.

Here are the final pics of the installed mount & fabricated bracket for the 3rd mounting point. View from the bottom:


View from the top. You can see the exposed threads where they are supposed to be attached to the missing tab on the block. But with the bracket installed, the bolt will provide clamping force on the mount & lateral movement should not occur with the other two bolts holding the bracket in place.


So now I just have to worry about replacing the timing belt. I plan to do that soon as possible as I am not 100% sure about the condition of the old one. It only has 50k km on it, but looked like it was due for a change. I didn't get the parts in time, so I will have to wait to do the TB job another weekend. I did realign the tensioner so that the tab is in the recess in the block and it is now tensioned properly.

Once again, I would like to thank everyone who offered assistance. Andy for lending the TB tools. Vik for picking them up for me. Kevin & Deisel enthusiast for your wrenching help. My bro in-law for lending me his car while mine was down, even though it was a Honda /images/graemlins/wink.gif. And all others who posted your thoughts, ideas, & encouragement. This truly is a wonderful club to be a part of.

Nigel
 

Frank M

BANNED
Joined
Apr 7, 2000
Location
NH
TDI
NB
I am glad the tensioner held its position and not allowing belt slippage/breakage to occur.

This is a typical time that something like that could happen. Then we hear comments about VW tensioner's quality and poor design, blaming them for the failure when all the time is was an installation mistake. A good lesson learned here...

Personally if I were examining this belt failure I would have picked up on the mark left by the misplaced tab and the oxidation over the correct tab locations hole... This would put the failure on an installation problem and not a part failure.
 

GeWilli

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 6, 1999
Location
lost to new england
TDI
none in the fleet (99.5 Golf RIP, 96 B4V sold)
looks good wingnut!

Marty's a skilled craftsman, difficult to duplicate his work, but it looks like you've done a remarkable job as well! Well done!
 

runonbeer

Maintenance EnthusiastVendor
Joined
Apr 15, 2002
Location
Austin, TX/Chapel Hill, NC
TDI
'00 Golf 02M, '10 Golf 02E, '02 UTE 02M
bravo! Wingnut, I know its probably too late now, but did you happen to record the dimensions of your mount repair bracket? that thing ended up looking like it ought to have a VW P/N stamped on it /images/graemlins/grin.gif
 

Wingnut

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 10, 2002
Location
Toronto & Whitby
TDI
Silver 2003 Jetta Wagon
Sorry, No I didn't. I have some more pics of it that I never posted that I will go through when I get home to see if it will help.

The only problem with this repair is it provides plenty of clamping force support, but very littl lateral movement support. I can't imagine that the small (7mm) bolt that I used to hold the fabricated bracket to the block will hold much? I will be doing my next timing belt this summer, so I will inspect all the parts to see if they are worn in any way.
 

runonbeer

Maintenance EnthusiastVendor
Joined
Apr 15, 2002
Location
Austin, TX/Chapel Hill, NC
TDI
'00 Golf 02M, '10 Golf 02E, '02 UTE 02M
Yeah, I was just outside looking over the area, and came to that same conclusion. there is another hole, a lot higher up (on the head in fact) that could also possibly tapped out for an additional grab point. But, I don't know how close this hole (more of a recess really, but its round, and it goes in about 1 inch) comes to the oil galleries of the head, and, your repair bracket would end up being like 1.5' long /images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif
But hey, anything has got to be better that that weld in the picture of Schroder's mount. /images/graemlins/eek.gif
 

GeWilli

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 6, 1999
Location
lost to new england
TDI
none in the fleet (99.5 Golf RIP, 96 B4V sold)
[ QUOTE ]
Sorry, No I didn't. I have some more pics of it that I never posted that I will go through when I get home to see if it will help.

The only problem with this repair is it provides plenty of clamping force support, but very littl lateral movement support. I can't imagine that the small (7mm) bolt that I used to hold the fabricated bracket to the block will hold much? I will be doing my next timing belt this summer, so I will inspect all the parts to see if they are worn in any way.

[/ QUOTE ]

the other forces should be minimized by proper attachment of the other two bolts that go into the engine block.

IT needs three because of the vibration and the type of mount- but the bolts hold the block against the bracket and if all 3 are snugged and don't have any movement then it'll be fine... The only concern I have is that the bolt thread into the fabricated peice using the threads on the engine block so there is contact with the block... to ensure proper alignment with the other two holes... but maybe there is enough play there in teh mount to let it work with a tiny margin of error...

with 3 bolts well secured in the factory manner or with the JETah/wingnut bracket mount thingy you shouldn't have any problems...

this welded stuff that our OKC friend had done is bad... pure badness
 

Wingnut

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 10, 2002
Location
Toronto & Whitby
TDI
Silver 2003 Jetta Wagon
I am no metalurgist or expert welder, but I never even considered a weld on my repair. It was a fabricated bracket or a new block. So I went the fabricated bracket first to see if it holds and a new block as a last resort. The fix was almost free, just my time & a few new harder grade bolts. Oh, and a new mount, but I needed a new one anyway since the threads on top were stripped from the last TB change. I tell ya, you can't trust anyone anymore. I am doing all my own work from now on.
 

Wingnut

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 10, 2002
Location
Toronto & Whitby
TDI
Silver 2003 Jetta Wagon
Just bumping this back up to add some more pictures.

When I initially did this repair to my car, I thought it was a one off occurance. So I didn't really go into detail with documenting the repair. But since I posted this, I have been contacted by several members about the repair. And since I didn't have any dimensions for the bracket I fabricated, I was not able to help them much other than offering them the info posted here.

Another member recently had this problem on his car and his misfortune is our fortune as he took measurements of his fabricated bracket. So thanks toi Rowl for the extra effort to make this info public.

Here is the bracket I made originally to repair the broken tab:



And here are the pictures that Rowl took of his bracket along with the dimensions of the bracket:







You can also see his entire post here.

Thanks again to Rowl for going the extra mile to provide this info to those who may need it in the future. I have also forwarded this thread to Metalnerd in case he might be interested in making a kit with these brackets and bolts to make the job much easier for the next person who is victimized. I have personally seen 3 cars with this broken block mount and heard of many others. It may not be a high volume seller, but I bet VW will be all over one of these kits if it were available.
 

JETaah

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Jan 18, 2001
Location
mi 48836
TDI
96 B4V, 1999.5 jettaIV,2005 BEW Beetle
I don't know if it has been noted anywhere but I happen to glance at a 2003 engine that I am installing and it looks as though VW got the message and beefed up that top rear mounting ear on the engine block.
 
Top