My Engine is really struggling, undriveable !! Is it the timing still ??

[ukguy]

Hi all,
I have a big problem with my car currently. It's a '99 Golf Mk4 1.9 GT TDi.
I was driving down the road at about 60mph yesterday and all of a sudden the engine started running really rough, with lack of pick up. At which point I moved into the inside lane, and got off at the next junction. Unfortunately the lights at that junction were on red, and as the engine reached idle it just died. Tried cranking to no avail. The AA were called and got me home safely. I loosed the 3 bolts on the injection pump spocket and adjusted the timing slightly...that got the car going (albeit roughly). I then hooked up the car to Vag Com and it showed the basic timing way out of spec (off the chart, showed 255). After many hours of messing around (on the basis that maybe the timing belt had jumped a tooth), I managed to get the timing back into spec (70 ish on the chart). The engine just about starts but there is loads of smoke coming out of the back and it's really rough, like it's firing on 2 cylinders. There's also a lot of vibration from in the engine bay, like it's going to rip out of it's mountings at any point. Hence it's just stuck at home now. To get the timing back in I had to move the belt 2 teeth whilst adjusting the 3 bolts on the injection sprocket. I assume it must be right now because the timing is only showing slightly advanced (in the graph). So I don't know what to do. Could the timing still be out if it shows right in Vag-Com, or could the injection pump be broken for that matter? Totally stumped.

A question that I'm not sure of the answer to: Is there only one place in the entire injection pump 360 degree thing that would show within range of the tdi timing graph on vag-com? I am wondering whether I have adjusted it totally incorrectly but got it in spec (according to the graph only) I say this because it smokes like a chimney when I turn the engine on!

Any advice or recommendations on what the problem could be would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Adam

 

[DPM]

Check the cam timing too.

 

[ukguy]

Thanks for the reply. When checking the cam timing, I understand I am looking for TDC first? Can someone explain this in laymans terms please. I have the timing belt cover open, is the cam sprocket the one behind the injection pump sprocket, looking from front of car? If so, I understand I have to check tdc is aligned with the pumps alignment. But some guides mention turning the engine to align, how do I do that if I'm not using the starter, do I use the wrench in the middle of the large sprocket?

Just not sure how to set it properly. I have a good idea on most things and thought I had it sorted when I brought the pump timing back into line, but it still runs very very rough with lots of smoke.

Thanks again! I am tearing my hair out here trying to figure it out

 

[MOGolf]

First: what engine code (1Z, AHU, ALH, ARL, etc.) do you have?

Second: to find TDC of the crank the best way to do that is to turn the crank with a 19mm socket on the crank bolt (transmission in neutral of course) by hand while a helper looks for the timing mark alignment at the flywheel (assuming manual transmission).

Did you happen to notice the belt tension, as indicated at the tensioner, before changing anything? Was it at the specified position?

Have you checked the oil level?

 

[BobnOH]

you better reset your timing from scratch. In laymans terms reset your timing from scratch, then fine tune with the VAG. The stall/stumble could have been clogged fuel or air.
Get your info for MoGolf, he is THE source and one of the best you'll find on this (or any) forum.

 

[ukguy]

Thanks a lot guys for the replies.

MOGolf
My engine is code AHF
I have checked the oil and it hasn't gone down. The tensioner seems fine and there is plenty of tension there. There is obviously something not quite right and I am thinking that the belt jumped a few cogs prior to the total stop on the motorway. I am just hoping I haven't got valves bent etc. There is a lot of clatter when it starts now (virtually straight away), but a heck of a lot of smoke too.

I appreciate your help. I had fitted a new radiator to my car too and was admiring the water level at the max mark and holding the day before. Oh well, fingers crossed I don't need a new engine

Thanks again!

 

[MOGolf]

Well the next step is turn the engine to TDC as I described and remove the valve cover. You'll be able to see if there obvious damage to the cam followers and verify the cam lobe positions.

Do you have the tools for locking the pump (you can substitute a drill bit) and cam?

The timing belt replacement procedure is the same for your engien as the ALH engine depicted in the write-up found in the Articles (see link above). It has lots of pictures showing the correct positions of everything.

 

[MOGolf]

The fact that the oil level hasn't gone down is a good thing. I asked that to verify if the turbo had blown or not.

 

[ukguy]

Yes I suppose I could firmly say that the smoky stuff down at the back is unburnt fuel, the water level doesnt go down and the oil hasn't budged down a notch.

Right, I think the mist is lifting in my head and I have an idea on what to do to check the whole timing thing.. Jack up car and turn crank shaft so that TDC mark lines up in flywheel housing. I understand this in turn lines up the cam so as to line up against the horizontal locking tool (if I had one). On this premise, and assuming that the flywheel marking never moved during the whole procedure, could I do it without locking in the cam? Then I make sure the injection pump hole is lined up against the hole near the 1 o'clock position. If not adjust etc to get it right when belt is on. Is that basically it when it comes to setting the timing. I think I could do this without messing with the cam, valve cover etc (other than to check if the internals are ok). Am I right in this assumption?

I appreciate your assistance, many thanks.

 

[DPM]

You'll need to pull the valve cover and the vac. pump to see the end of the cam. Any flat item that fits in the slot will help you ascertain whether the cam timing is correct. When the flywheel is at the tdc mark, your flat bar/ spanner/ whatever should be parallel with the top of the cyl. head, and the holes should line up on the inj. pump too.
If the camshaft slot *doesn't* line up, you'll need to pop the pulley free as per the TB change how-to.
Whatever you do, take the locking tool out of the end of the camshaft before moving anything- especially loosening or tightening the pulley bolt!

 

[ukguy]

Excellent stuff, thanks DPM. Both you guys have made me understand timing a little better now. That coupled with the excellent pdf howto in the articles link will certainly help lots with me not messing it up.

Seeming as you guys seem to know your stuff when it comes to timing, with the symptoms I described (very rough running, loads of smoke, but timing in vag-com perfect..slightly advanced), do you think it still could be the cam timing?

I'm just wondering if the cam timing can still be off even though the injection timing is bang on with VAG? Silly question maybe but I have no idea how VAG gets it's informaton.

Anyway, I now have my next important project coming up (make her road worthy again). Hopefully I can do it myself.

Thanks again!

 

[ukguy]

If the camshaft slot *doesn't* line up, you'll need to pop the pulley free as per the TB change how-to.

If the camshaft slot is not in line with tdc on flywheel, can I just slacken the timing belt away, then skip the sprocket a few teeth to make it in line (cam slot in horizontal position), alleviating the need to have a special tool to hold that sprocket still whilst undoing the nut?

Thank you.

 

[DPM]

Neither the ECU nor vag-com can read cam position in a distributor-pump TDI. PDs are different, they have a cam phase sensor- as do Peugeot HDIs. So yes, cam timing could be off.

Remember that the cam pulley isn't keyed onto the end of the cam. The likelyhood is that if the cam is out a full tooth or more you've got valve damage (there aint much room at TDC) so moving the pulley relative to the cam is what you require

No tool to hold the pulley? I wouldn't worry too much- the retainer isn't on that tight and you'd not stress the belt if you work against compression. Alternatively, can you not put a bar through a hole in the pulley and lock it against the top of the head?

 

[ukguy]

Excellent, thanks DPM. So because small movements are possibly needed, then the cam pulley (sprocket?) may need to come off for very fine tuning. And thanks for the hint referencing getting the nut off if it comes to that. I dread to think what I'm going to find, if there's damage at least I know where I stand.

Your information has been invaluable, many thanks.

 

[ukguy]

Another silly question perhaps? Can the injection pump sprocket be out a few teeth even though Vag-Com shows it in spec? Or is there only place in the revolution where VAG would report it in spec? It's just that I dislodged only the injection sprocket and adjusted it to get it back into spec, but it could have skipped the other way for all I know. Just curious on this..

 

[DPM]

As long as it's reported as in spec you're OK, but if you're having to set the pulley so that the bolts are waay at one end of their slots, the perfectionist would move the belt one notch...

 

[ukguy]

Thanks again. I had to move the belt by two teeth to get it back into spec. Maybe the other pulleys slipped the belt a couple of teeth as well, and this is why I am having the issues now... Oh well, only inspection will deduce this, I just wish some of you guys lived in the North West of England!

 

[bones 29]

valve timing

you say the timing was out a couple of teeth have you checked the cranksheft sprocket it is very likely thet the woodrift key has broken on the sprocket and this is why the timing is out if you have adjusted the timing it will move again and possibily do valve damage

 

[ukguy]

Hi there. In the end I took the car to the local dealer, they took the camshaft cover off and uncovered a bit of a mess. One of the cam followers had broken, and there was a metal disk stuck in the plastic cover inside the cam cover. I asked if this could be because of the timing slipping etc. They said unlikely, as only one cam follower had disintegrated, together with poss' piston damage etc. They suspected part failure which I find very surprising for the car, considering I had regularly serviced it and looked after it for well over 2 years. Oh well, I guess these things sometimes happen.

Not good. And possible piston damage and bore damage. So in the end, with the cars age (6 years) I sold it. And it had been perfect before this for the time that I had it too. Will try and get another good example in the future....

Thanks for all your assistance guys, RIP Golf Mk4