My car won't start...

tdihopeful

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03 2dr 5sp Golf
I decided to look at the timing belt today just to see how it was. Didn't see anything that worried me in a visual inspection at how I thought it should be. I thought I should rotate the engine by hand with a wrench from the fuel pump cog nut. To see other parts of the belt. I thought doing that would be ok, that the ECU would collect/use timing data diffently. I could be wrong and it may be the fuel pump sprocket moved from me using it to torque over the engine. I thought if I wanted to I should be manually moving the engine from the crankshaft but did it anyway. Now the ECU needs to be adjusted for compensation for what I did and it didn't do apparently is that correct?
 

ts888

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03 ALH
Sounds like the belt slipped, most likely on the crank. So now you're going to be doing the timing belt. Hopefully it didn't move enough to let the pistons and valves make contact. Turning the engine over with the IP or cam bolts is no bueno.
 

tdihopeful

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03 2dr 5sp Golf
Is it possible that the belt hadn't slipped/skipped/ jumped on any of the cogs also is it possible that none of the cogs slipped on shafts and that the situation is entirely the "computer" I ask because I tried to replicate those things and made pretty accurate reference marks on cogs and shafts and if there was slipping it was to such a small degree to be imperceptible. It seemed as if there developed enough slack in the belt that the belt jumping cog teeth I suppose could have happened but didn't seem to have likely happened. Again could it be that the ECU "expected" the engine to be at the same place as when shut down from information logged of the cam position sensor but when I tried to restart it of course wasn't?
 

AverageAndy

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Again could it be that the ECU "expected" the engine to be at the same place as when shut down from information logged of the cam position sensor but when I tried to restart it of course wasn't?
Not likely. When you perform a timing belt change the first step is to move the crank to TDC, which is not usually the position it is at when the engine is shut down. Then after changing, it is usually rotated a few times and left to start again back at TDC, which is not where the ECU would have "expected" it in your scenario.
 

jokila

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2003 Jetta GLS, Manual
It is also possible the pump sprocket moved. The three sprocket bolts are supposed to keep the sprocket from adjusting the timing.

Check the slots of the three bolts and if they slipped the 13mm bolt heads will be biased all the way to the end of the slot. Just loosen them up and center the sprocket slots and tighten down.
 

tdihopeful

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California
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03 2dr 5sp Golf
AverageAndy that's what I figured. jokila I looked at this and it appears that the pump cog bolts are all the way to one side of the slots. Another thing is I have noticed slightly rougher idle for a while now as well as well as intermittent starting trouble. Maybe the IP sprocket was slowly moving and when I did what I did that moved it enough to get worse. Perhaps the engine is "hydrolocked". Because of the intermittent starting issue I tried to start it numerous times and have been thinking if what I did actually made the belt jump 1-3 teeth that repeatedly trying to start it could have damaged valves. jokila what you've proposed appears to fit in the situation. I'll move the pump sprocket and see what happens. Should I also remove the glow plugs and cycle the engine, put them back and try starting after? I presume that would eliminate "hydrolock" if that has occurred.
 

ts888

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The ECU doesn't know anything if the key is off. Until the engine turns with the key on the ECU isn't receiving a signal from the crank or cam position sensors. You can turn an engine over again and again with the key off and if the crank, cam and IP remain in synch it will fire right up again.

Hopefully all that moved was the IP sprocket.

If the engine still cranks over it's unlikely it hydrolocked.
 

tdihopeful

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03 2dr 5sp Golf
ts888 you mentioned crank and cam position as having sensors but in the next sentence said that if the crank, cam and IP remain in synch it's fine. Now my question is does the pump have a sensor? If yes even if I manually "play with" injection timing will the computer conflict with the manual adjustment? After adjusting the pump cog a little it seemed like it was trying to start and that seemed like I was maybe going in the right direction and if I played with it a little more the car should start then perhaps equally and oppositely there was a check engine oil light blinking and went out. I take that to mean there could be a hole in one or more of the pistons... Something that is causing a loss of oil pressure and that certainly would be indicating serious damage I would think. Possibly the hydraulic cam followers are smashed to bits.
 

ts888

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The injection pump does communicate position, although I wouldn't characterize it as the same as a cam or crank sensor. The ECU cannot change any of those positions, they are mechanically fixed. The ECU uses those signals along with accelerator pedal position to vary the amount of fuel injected (extremely oversimplified explanation).

You really need a Vag-Com to set the IP timing. I just did mine tonight after finishing timing belt and cylinder head replacement. The amount you move the IP to get to the proper range is tiny, and the amount the slots in the pulley allow is enough to be greatly over or under the correct range.
 

tdihopeful

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03 2dr 5sp Golf
amount you move the IP to get to the proper range is tiny, and the amount the slots in the pulley allow is enough to be greatly over or under the correct range.


Of course

Any opinion on my thinking of oil light blinking being an indication of oil pressure loss maybe because the hydraulic cam followers are damaged?
 

Tdijarhead

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If you are continually cranking the engine trying to start it then eventually the oil light will come on and flash, that’s nothing to worry about, if on the other hand the engine is running and the oil light is flashing you’ve got problems and should shut the engine down immediately and figure out if it’s just the oil pressure sensor or a low oil pressure situation.

Move the 3 IP bolts to the center of their slots and give it another go.
 

noob_tl

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I think it's unlikely the belt slipped. I would put the crank at TDC (using the crank bolt, of course!) and see if the pump hub's alignment slot matches up with the timing hole in the pump body. This will tell you if the pump sprocket moved on the hub. You don't even need the alignment tools to do this, a drill bit will work, or even an inspection mirror will tell you if it moved a lot.
 

Zak99b5

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Albany NY
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2003 Jetta TDI
I'd just remove the vacuum pump and use the timing tools (cam plate and IP pin) to verify correct mechanical timing with the crank at TDC, checked in the bellhousing at the flywheel. That will quickly tell you if the timing belt slipped or not.
 

tdihopeful

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There are paint marks all over the place, My flywheel seems too rusty to see the TDC reference mark, the notch on the pulley for v ribbed belt (accessory belt) for TDC reference appears to have been previously installed at -90% to actual TDC. Where I'm at is I have a bamboo kebab skewer in the glow plug hole of piston #1, brought the piston to as precise a position using that. I'm unsure where the cam positions/cam sprocket is at/should be. Is it possible to ascertain where the valves are with looking at the cam by removing the cam/valve cover?
 

J_dude

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With valve cover removed: both cam lobes on #1 cylinder should be up, then you’re at TDC
 

J_dude

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Really need to pull vacuum pump and put the cam lock plate in the slot at the end of the cam to ensure it is in precisely the right orientation though
 

Zak99b5

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2003 Jetta TDI
With the long reach cam plate, you won’t even need to pull the valve cover.

ignore the v belt completely. Look harder at the flywheel for a 0 mark when the bamboo stick is halfway between stopping to rise and starting to fall.

And don’t get taken in by the sucker hole in the IP when inserting the lock pin.
 

tdihopeful

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03 2dr 5sp Golf
Took the cam cover off and the cam lobe and lifter are worn seriously enough to see the keeper or valve spring retainer. It looks like a dish with a hole in the middle. The cam lobe is curved where it should have a flat face. None of the other lifters appear to have any unusual wear on the contact surface. It seems like an extreme amount of wear that couldn't have happened with a few handfuls of attempted starts maybe I'm wrong. Whatever the case I will be needing to buy and install at least a new camshaft and a Hydraulic lifter to have the car any sort of how it should be. Next steps?
 

tdihopeful

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May as well disassemble further? One thing I have read is that the injectors need to be stored in a certain way. Wrapped in paper soaked with oil/diesel?
 

tdihopeful

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03 2dr 5sp Golf
If the damage I'm seeing wasn't from an issue that's been with the car for a while and actually happened because of me in the short time I can't imagine that the piston/pistons don't have cracks or a hole in them at least. If there is damage all the way to the connecting rod(s) would it stop at the crankshaft? could that be damaged even? Crank bearings? If yes at that point I probably wouldn't want to consider a repair anytime soon I guess.
 

ts888

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03 ALH
The bottom end of your engine is probably fine, and if the cam followers cracked while you were cranking it with the starter, you will likely be able to have the head refurbished with new valves/cam/followers, the casting is likely OK.

The timing belt on my engine split while the car was being driven. I replaced the cylinder head because a couple of the broken cam followers did not want to come out of their bores, so it seemed prudent. The pistons and rods were fine. So were the injectors and glow plugs.
 

tdihopeful

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03 2dr 5sp Golf
I got an old Ford F-150 that was my Fathers running. It's not comfortable (still smells of rodents that were living in it) and not really viable long term as far as fuel cost goes but it's good to have and better than nothing I suppose. I can use it in the meantime until I fix my car.

I would like to buy a used complete head for the TDI and head gasket and install it. I think that may be only a little more expensive than acquiring all the parts and labor to rebuild the head that's on it. I suppose I should look at it further first before speculation. Maybe I should post a wanted ad in classifieds?
 

pedroYUL

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csstevej

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north nj
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2001 golf tdi 4 door auto now a manual, mine, 2000 golf 2 door M/T son's,daughters 98 NB non-TDI 2.0, 2003 TDI NB for next daughter, head repaired and on road,gluten for punishment got another tdi 2001NB,another yellow tdi NB
Pull the lifter and post a picture.
Why are you assuming that the entire head is bad?
After rereading your post it looks like the IP pulley was never tightened correctly or properly timed with all the marks you say are there.
If you haven’t pulled the tb yet get all the mechanical locks , install them and actually see where your at.
Then pull your cam and all the lifters and inspect , if any have spider cracks on the lifters then you have some bent valves.
If you don’t then get the cam and lifter as shown above with a new complete tb kit and motor on. Just my .02
 

AndyBees

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Silver 2003 Jetta TDI, Silver 2000 Jetta TDI (sold), '84 Vanagon with '02 ALH engine
There is some very good advice in this Thread.

Things learned:
-Always rotate the engine using a 19 mm socket on the Crankshaft
-Never rotate the engine counter-clockwise (there are exceptions, such as when installing the head)
-Very, very small movement of the IP Shaft in the three bolts holding the Cog will affect timing big-time
-Always confirm mechanical timing using the three points > Cam, Crankshaft and the IP
-Nothing on the accessory belt has anything to do with timing the engine
-The ECU doesn't make changes, it does use data from fuel temp, coolant temp, Air temp, IP position, Crankshaft position sensor, and Turbo boost
-A TB at 130k miles will "look" as good as one at 80k miles, visual inspection is useless other then if something got in there and done damage

Also, there is a spin-off piece of luck here. You found a bad lifter.
As others have said, set the engine at TDC (verify all three points) and then proceed to remove the Cam Shaft and Lifters. If you are close to a TB replacement, well, now is definitely the time to do it.

Yes, posting photos are a big help when seeking advice and guidance!
 

tdihopeful

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03 2dr 5sp Golf
One question I asked that I don't think was answered was on storage of injectors if the are out of the car. I think I saw a video where the mechanic said if the injectors are removed from an engine and are going to be sitting for a while they need to be stored wrapped in oil soaked paper or something like that as not to "dry out". Is that correct?
 

ts888

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PNW US
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03 ALH
How long are you storing? I set them in a container of diesel if it's just for a few days. Usually a cut off plastic bottle that will hold all the injectors upright, then fill about 50%. It's not so much the drying out, it keeps the rust at bay.
 

tdihopeful

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03 2dr 5sp Golf
I pulled the head off this evening. Appears that all of the intake valves contacted pistons. Each piston has a faint C shape on them. The #1 cylinder is/had the most contact/force. The mark is deeper. I don't know if these are examples of "light" or "heavy" contact but what's weird to me is the extent of #1 intake cam lobe and follower wear compared to all of the others. I suppose this instance is a slightly unusual mode of damage and won't look much like many other examples of piston/valve contact. I'll look at the followers in the next couple days to inspect for micro fractures however even if there aren't there is a sink shape in intake follower #1 anyways.

I'm interested in doing the repair decently and am willing to go as far as new valve guides if necessary but would like to cut as many corners/minimize costs as possible while still insuring decent reliability. I don't need another 100,000 on this car right now but also don't want to have a problem in a couple hundred or thousand miles. Figure all new intake valves, one new follower and valve keeper, cam shaft, head gasket and new head bolts, and perhaps cam bolts is the minimum I can get away with replacing. I'll probably do fuel line. Also glow plug harness as that crumbled/fell apart.

I know it'll be frowned upon immediately proposing reuse of the timing belt but I would like to. My thinking is if there is no serious fatigue caused by it going through an additional tension cycle why wouldn't it be ok? I have considered purchasing reusable head bolts instead of the TTY bolts but maybe the difference in money would be better spent on other more "essential" parts?
 

BobnOH

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central Ohio
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2 door '03? A very desirable, if old, model.
I would inspect the lower end, then, if it's good do a full head refresh. Get with Franko6.
Not a good case for cutting corners, you could end up wasting a lot of time and treasure. And re-using the timing belt or any of it's appurtenances, is just silly.
 
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