MPG after CP3 Conversion

[kashtyaatsi]

So after putting over 12k miles on the CP3 pump and driving in all conditions and weather I can confidently say my mpg has dropped about 15-20% since. Car is tuned by Malone and they say everything looks normal. They also say that a drop in mpg is normal as the CP3 has more pumping losses. Could something else have happened during the install to cause a drop in mpg? Surprisingly this is most significantly noticed while on the highway (Cruise control set at 70mph a majority of the time). Taking trips I regularly do (500-1000 miles) and have always gotten between 49-51 mpg, the past two times I've have gotten right around 42 mpg. In town the loss is much less, around 44 mpg previously and 41-42 mpg now. I have always driven the car hard and continue to do so (hitting redline every drive at least once) Curious to see others findings. And yes the mpg decrease was noticeable immediately after the install. Car seems to run fine other than some higher egts than I'd like to see.

It's a 2011 Golf 6MT - Mods:

- GTB1756vk Turbo from Xman
- Whitbread CP3 kit
- 2200 bar fuel pressure sensor
- 4 bar map
- S3 intercooler
- Deleted all the way back to stock muffler
- EGR and cooler delete
- Aux pump delete

 

[turbodieseldyke]

They also say that a drop in mpg is normal as the CP3 has more pumping losses.

"It's normal to lose mpg because our tunes suck."

 

[kashtyaatsi]

Ha I expected some response similar to this.

 

[tdipig]

So after putting over 12k miles on the CP3 pump and driving in all conditions and weather I can confidently say my mpg has dropped about 15-20% since. Car is tuned by Malone and they say everything looks normal. They also say that a drop in mpg is normal as the CP3 has more pumping losses. Could something else have happened during the install to cause a drop in mpg? Surprisingly this is most significantly noticed while on the highway (Cruise control set at 70mpg a majority of the time). Taking trips I regularly do (500-1000 miles) and have always gotten between 49-51 mpg, the past two times I've have gotten right around 42 mpg. In town the loss is much less, around 44 mpg previously and 41-42 mpg now. I have always driven the car hard and continue to do so (hitting redline every drive at least once) Curious to see others findings. And yes the mpg decrease was noticeable immediately after the install. Car seems to run fine other than some higher egts than I'd like to see.

It's a 2011 Golf 6MT - Mods:

- GTB1756vk Turbo from Xman
- Whitbread CP3 kit
- 2200 bar fuel pressure sensor
- 4 bar map
- S3 intercooler
- Deleted all the way back to stock muffler
- EGR and cooler delete
- Aux pump delete

I just finished a r70 cp3 and have only done city test runs but it does seem to be down so far…you ever find a cause for yours? I’m still trying to figure out the cam timing on these (cbea) and how it sets itself after you’ve messed with the cam gear

 

[kashtyaatsi]

I just finished a r70 cp3 and have only done city test runs but it does seem to be down so far…you ever find a cause for yours? I’m still trying to figure out the cam timing on these (cbea) and how it sets itself after you’ve messed with the cam gear

No luck so far.

 

[tdipig]

No luck so far.

Well sorry to report mine seems to have gone up a little after some more test runs on the highway. For yours 20% decrease is a lot…something is definitely going on there. I’d double check the timing, obviously not cp3 timing, and make sure the hub isn’t slipping on the pump…torque stripe it or something. Also make sure your metering valve is correct, although you should have seen some codes, and make sure your pump doesn’t need the aux pump...piston ones like the r70 do

 

[smelly621]

It's a 2011 Golf 6MT - Mods:

- GTB1756vk Turbo from Xman
- Whitbread CP3 kit
- 2200 bar fuel pressure sensor
- 4 bar map
- S3 intercooler
- Deleted all the way back to stock muffler
- EGR and cooler delete
- Aux pump delete

So you were getting 50mpg with all the above mods except the cp3? Was it already tuned by Malone?

I have near identical mods, but best I get is 37mpg, which is an improvement over the 33 I was getting stock. Also Malone tuned with egts that seem higher than I'd expect.

Been meaning to reach out to @Xtremefunky and what's involved in getting a better tune.

 

[kashtyaatsi]

So you were getting 50mpg with all the above mods except the cp3? Was it already tuned by Malone?

I have near identical mods, but best I get is 37mpg, which is an improvement over the 33 I was getting stock. Also Malone tuned with egts that seem higher than I'd expect.

Been meaning to reach out to @Xtremefunky and what's involved in getting a better tune.

Yep I had all those mods and on Malone's "stage 4" tune already and could get 50 mpg on long highway trips. Immediately after the CP3, new fuel rail sensor and CP3 tune the mpg tanked. On moderately warm days (mid 80's) I'll see egts around 900-1000F just cruising flat highway at 70 mph... That always seemed high for me.

 

[pro51492]

Mine went down as well. Malones tunes suck period. I could get 47 consistently before the stage 3 tune with CP3 and CR170, now I average Around 44-45 only perfect conditions warrant 47+ I drive around 800 miles per week almost all highway at 70mph and drive the car for efficiency.

 

[smelly621]

That's wild, back in the day when the cp3 swap was just getting going people claimed it had lower pumping losses. Seems like a dramatic difference. My egts in the golf are way higher in the same load situations compared to my 2005 5.9 cummins, which seems ridiculous and has always left me thinking I'm over-fueled. Spent awhile going through all the vcds measuring blocks but never found a way to log lambda using the stock sensor

 

[lemoncurd]

dog piling, my MPG went up by switching to xtremefunky.

funny enough, my car actually cools off even in 70f weather when on slight declines now.

my thermostat isnt even bad either. mr funky's tunes are just so much more efficient than malones.

im swapping to CP3 shortly! it's sitting my garage waiting for my timing belt. looks like 2-3 weeks then im getting into it

 

[pro51492]

May have to give his tunes a shot. How do you load them?

 

[kashtyaatsi]

I would be curious to get my logs looked at and get a second opinion as well.

 

[lemoncurd]

May have to give his tunes a shot. How do you load them?

tactrix openport 2.0 + PCMflash with the correct module for your ECU.
that is what i have.

@Xtremefunky may have some recommendations for flashing aswell.

after you buy, you send him a read. then he edits the binary and sends it back. you do this over and over as you log different measuring blocks dialing the tune in.

 

[x1800MODMY360x]

tactrix openport 2.0 + PCMflash with the correct module for your ECU.
that is what i have.

@Xtremefunky may have some recommendations for flashing aswell.

after you buy, you send him a read. then he edits the binary and sends it back. you do this over and over as you log different measuring blocks dialing the tune in.

I got both, I will do in the winter time as I'm not happy with malone.

 

[smelly621]

@lemoncurd - can you pm me where you ordered that tool from? I have a clone ktag I could never get to read and wouldn't trust to write so have been dragging my feet getting in touch with Mr funky assuming that was the only affordable option.

 

[lemoncurd]

@lemoncurd - can you pm me where you ordered that tool from? I have a clone ktag I could never get to read and wouldn't trust to write so have been dragging my feet getting in touch with Mr funky assuming that was the only affordable option.

your bio says you have a 2001 golf. not sure if that's accurate still. if so, hit up burpod for a tune. xtremefunky does mostly common rail stuff to my knowledge

genuine flash tools can do something called a "virtual read" of the ECU. it's rare to do an actual read of an ECU anymore.
i would say, buy a spare ECU and test flash that given you have a china clone.

 

[smelly621]

your bio says you have a 2001 golf. not sure if that's accurate still. if so, hit up burpod for a tune. xtremefunky does mostly common rail stuff to my knowledge

genuine flash tools can do something called a "virtual read" of the ECU. it's rare to do an actual read of an ECU anymore.
i would say, buy a spare ECU and test flash that given you have a china clone.

This was in regard to my 2010 golf. Did some more digging and seems genuine versions of the tool and software you mentioned are actually not $1000s of dollars.

Do you know if you're able to do a true full read via odb2 or is it a virtual read?

 

[lemoncurd]

This was in regard to my 2010 golf. Did some more digging and seems genuine versions of the tool and software you mentioned are actually not $1000s of dollars.

Do you know if you're able to do a true full read via odb2 or is it a virtual read?

virtual reads only by OBD2. virtual reads are fine, they are simply files someone else has read and uploaded to the web. they are the same as you have in your ECU except they are missing immo data.

 

[Billybobsahoosier]

I did my R70 CP3 conversion in conjunction with 2200 bar fuel pressure sending unit, timing belt, water pump, thermostat, fuel filter, new tires, oil change, 02Q transmission fluid change (tried something new and went right back), air filter and I switched to a different diesel additive and got it all tuned. All that happened at the same time the temps dropped and they start the antigel treatment in diesel in my area and that always takes my economy down a couple mpg’s by itself. Before I had just a simple eco delete and stage 1 tune and 47-51 mpg was normal. I use the fuelly app, I don’t go by the onboard computer but it’s usually within 1 mpg. I could get mid 40’s doing 80-85 mph and even intown driving was mid 40’s. For the last 4 months I have been trying to figure out exactly what caused my MPG dropping so badly because since I did all that work 42 is about as high as I can get it and 38-40 is pretty much my daily driving new normal and to make it even worse a 6 year long construction project ended at the same exact time too and I spend 20-30 minutes less of sitting in traffic each day so in my mind something really had to get screwed up or the CP3 is just that bad for fuel economy. I took it back to the guy who tuned it and had him go through it and he found an intake vacuum issue and fixed it and it Improved nothing except knowing my intake isn’t leaking. I don’t know exactly what did what. I have a feeling I won’t know for a little while until temps get normal again and the fuel gets back to normal.

Now that I’ve made a short story long, I should have just done a disaster prevention kit and kept the 50mpg tune. Save a grand and got way better gas mileage. And the cp3 is noisy. I’m not impressed.

 

[Tuheeden]

I have three CJA and a CBE all with Whitbread and United Diesel CP3 pumps and 2200 bar sensors and all of mine went up 1-2 mpg after install. All can get 48-50 mpg at 60 mph. The CBE is slightly lower than that but I expected that.
I did have to change the thermostat on all four of them because the temperature was LOW even when the needle showed 190, it actually was 169 to 175. After thermostat it now runs 187 to 197 consistently.

 

[Billybobsahoosier]

I have three CJA and a CBE all with Whitbread and United Diesel CP3 pumps and 2200 bar sensors and all of mine went up 1-2 mpg after install. All can get 48-50 mpg at 60 mph. The CBE is slightly lower than that but I expected that.
I did have to change the thermostat on all four of them because the temperature was LOW even when the needle showed 190, it actually was 169 to 175. After thermostat it now runs 187 to 197 consistently.

What tunes are you running on your CJAA?

 

[kashtyaatsi]

For me I pretty much have determined it's the tune. I reinstalled my previous stage 4 tune by malone, the one without the CP3 mapping and my fuel economy increased by about 15%. I didn't get to do any in depth testing because we got absolutely dumped on and sub zero temps after that. Once the weather warms up and the roads clear out I'm going to do some more complete logging and send them back to malone and see what they have to say.

 

[Tuheeden]

What tunes are you running on your CJAA?

All my tunes are Tunezilla. Yes, I have read all about them but I have gotten good service and no hiccups on the myriad of options that I have dialed in.

 

[mz1]

Golf 6 spd. std. and I have the following mods:

- Malone Stage 3
- CR170
- Peloquin LSD
- S3 intercooler
- Deleted all the way back
- EGR and cooler delete
- Aux pump delete
- 18 inch light weight wheels, run them at 48 psi

The car came as is from the previous owner but I previously had a 2010 Jetta Automatic Malone Stg 2 / deleted that I can use as ref for mpg's
I drive 15% city 85% Hwy at various speeds but mostly at 70-75 mph and I am averaging 40-42 mpgs.....my 2010 jetta was doing the same mpg's or better

I figure the tune and CP3 are the cause of a lighter car like my Golf giving the same mpg's than my Auto, heavier Jetta but I conclude that I rather have a reliable car with a CP3 and than to drive a bit more efficient car with a time bomb as fuel pump.

 

[lemoncurd]

I figure the tune and mp3 are the cause of a lighter car like my Golf giving the same mpg's than my Auto, heavier Jetta but I conclude that I rather have a reliable car with a CP3 and than to drive a bit more efficient car with a time bomb as fuel pump.

tune? yes
cp3? no

your tune is the cause of the bad MPG change. on a proper tune, you should see no change or a marginal improvement in FE

 

[KERMA]

CJAA time the pump's pressure peaks to align with the injectors' firing. CP3 throw all that coordination off, which messes up the accuracy of the fuel metering and timing. There's enough tolerance allowed to not necessarily throw codes, so things are technically "in spec" but it's not as good as it could be.
I don't think that effect of not coordinating the pressure pulses can be compensated with different tuning. That pressure pulse alignment function can be turned off, but none those guys doing "cp3 tunes" are doing that. This I know. Not that it would help much anyway. The extent of the difference that makes these a "CP3 tune" seems to be extending an axis on one of the zero fuel cal curves and reclassifying the low rail codes so they never show up. (a.k.a. "deleting the codes") out of sight is out of mind I guess. Along with a weak sauce tune so the pump doesn't get pushed too hard.

One other BIG influence is VERY sketchy pumps being sold. Those "reconditioned" pumps are a real crap shoot. A few years back, I obtained one from one of the popular sellers and had it torn down at Industrial Injection while I watched. IT WAS COMPLETE JUNK. It was so far gone that they told me it was not possible to rebuild to be functional at spec. I suspect that some of these "Euro" sellers are peddling junk cores from reman facilities dumpsters that are rejected because they are so far gone that they can't ever be rebuilt according to Bosch spec. So they dump them on an unsuspecting "secondary market" here on this side of the pond. I guess the takeaway being, buyer beware, and inexpensive is not necessarily more economical.

I've always been of the opinion that CP3 are actually a DOWNGRADE. Especially when you consider the "typical" cp3 models that are being chosen simply because they "fit" in the available space. I could maybe see it if the CP3 is "hotrod" version but that's not what you're getting at the prices being paid. CP3 buys you more resistance to damage from water in the fuel, but that's pretty much it. The designed operating pressures are lower, the fuel flow ratings are lower, the power ratings are lower, for a similar size pump. Also IMO it's like these "Stage 4" kits with "too big" turbos that are essentially a solution in search of a problem. It's not your bottleneck.

My opinion, FWIW

 

[Tuheeden]

Kerma - First let me say the KermaTDI has taken quite a chunk out of my wallet....and I could not be happier!
The CP3 pumps from United Diesel (Whitbread uses them) have really improved ove the past 3 years and they become "necessary" if you near 230-240hp. However the most noticeable difference to me is that starting the car with a CP4 lags noticably compared to the CP3 (like an extra rotation or so). Of course there is the piece of mind of the CP4 not blowing up.
So if you bump the rail sensor to 2200 bar with a CP3, and of course you need a tune, it can really be a worthwhile upgrade for not a crazy price
That is my experience on CJA/CBE engines

 

[KERMA]

Fair enough. I did say it was a while ago. It's still buyer beware territory, and false economies abound.
230-240 whp is still stock CP4 territory, IMO. Of course to get there needs a tune and mods so it's still 6 or a half dozen.