More Cluster Pin Questions!!

[blizzard60]

So I've tried to search for some help on exactly how to get the "SKC" value from a cluster using VAG Tacho, but I can't seem to get the answer I need. In a lot of the posts I've read people call the 4 digit pin the "SKC", but they aren't the same thing (this is probably obvious to most people, but is seems like a pretty common thing to use PIN and SKC interchangeably which is very confusing!!!). This is where I think I'm having issues.

I can log into the cluster (1J5 920 846 C) with VAGTacho 1.7 no problem. If I choose the "get pin" option it returns a value right away (9637). I have tried to re-code some keys with this pin, but it doesn't work. I've tried using the "new keys" option in VAGTacho but it says wrong pin, then I have to re-login. I've also tried VCDS and I get disconnected from the cluster as soon as I try to log in with that pin. Under BOTH circumstances I get a "FAIL" on the right display of the cluster where the normal "trip" distance is.

I have tried a hole bunch of sequences with these digits (3796, 6973, 7369, etc!). When I use VCDS I always add a 0 before the pin. I can only use 4 digits in VAGTacho...

I have several EEPROM dumps, but I don't know if the 7 digit SKC is in there somewhere... This would be useful as I have a date and a workshop number for the last dealer that logged into the cluster.

Any thoughts? I'd really like to able to adapt some keys!!!

Thanks so much.

 

[dzcad90]

I don't know the exact terminology, however SKC and PIN are the same thing. There's just a 4 digit one and 7 digit one.

The 4 digit PIN is actually what you need for your procedure. The 7 digit PIN/SKC is basically a form of rudementary encryption that VW tried for a while. The 4 digit PIN is put through an algorythm that mashes it up with the date, the dealer's workshop number, and the importer code. When you click "Use 7 digit PIN/SKC" the VCDS software just does the math to extropolate the 4 digit SKC and populates the box. It just doesn't show it to you

If you can use the 0+4 digit PIN/SKC to login to the cluster and the session is not dropped you have the correct PIN. If you are dealing with Immo3 and your keys are cut, you shold be able to login to the cluster and then start the car with the keys that are cut but not mated provided the PIN is correct. I think you can start the car for one or two cycles after this or 45 minutes, whichever comes first. I believe the Immobilizer light will stay on solid after a successful login.

 

[thebigarniedog]

So I've tried to search for some help on exactly how to get the "SKC" value from a cluster using VAG Tacho, but I can't seem to get the answer I need. In a lot of the posts I've read people call the 4 digit pin the "SKC", but they aren't the same thing (this is probably obvious to most people, but is seems like a pretty common thing to use PIN and SKC interchangeably which is very confusing!!!). This is where I think I'm having issues.

I can log into the cluster (1J5 920 846 C) with VAGTacho 1.7 no problem. If I choose the "get pin" option it returns a value right away (9637). I have tried to re-code some keys with this pin, but it doesn't work. I've tried using the "new keys" option in VAGTacho but it says wrong pin, then I have to re-login. I've also tried VCDS and I get disconnected from the cluster as soon as I try to log in with that pin. Under BOTH circumstances I get a "FAIL" on the right display of the cluster where the normal "trip" distance is.

I have tried a hole bunch of sequences with these digits (3796, 6973, 7369, etc!). When I use VCDS I always add a 0 before the pin. I can only use 4 digits in VAGTacho...

I have several EEPROM dumps, but I don't know if the 7 digit SKC is in there somewhere... This would be useful as I have a date and a workshop number for the last dealer that logged into the cluster.

Any thoughts? I'd really like to able to adapt some keys!!!

Thanks so much.

When you get this all figured out shoot me a PM as I have the same hell in my near future (mfa IMMO3 cluster swap/key redo). From the number of questions generated in this area it seems that a full workup (beyond the existing ones) is necessary. Thanks in advance

 

[fitzski]

[Deleted... sorry... realized I was just repeating what was already posted.]

 

[dzcad90]

I have tried a hole bunch of sequences with these digits (3796, 6973, 7369, etc!). When I use VCDS I always add a 0 before the pin. I can only use 4 digits in VAGTacho...

I believe some earlier versions of VAG-Tacho would read the PIN/SKC in the reverse order, however I forget which way you have to manipulate the digits. I think 3796 would be the correct manipulation in your case, but read on...

After one or more incorrect login attempts to the cluster, the cluster starts locking you out for a certain period of time. Entering the correct PIN/SKC into the field will not result in success if the cluster is locked out. You have to refer to the immobilizer measuring blocks to see if the lockout timer is in effect. I believe the harder you try and hammer on it, the longer your lockout time becomes.

http://www.ross-tech.com/vag-com/cars/Immo3-measuring-blocks.html

Also, from what I've read, it's wise to use VCDS for as much of the procedure as possible. The VAG-Tacho software (at least the cheap Pacific Rim copies that are ever popular) are not very reliable at doing anything but reading SKCs and reading / writing the cluster EEPROM. Get your PIN and then switch back to VCDS to do any actual immobilizer service.

 

[blizzard60]

I believe some earlier versions of VAG-Tacho would read the PIN/SKC in the reverse order, however I forget which way you have to manipulate the digits. I think 3796 would be the correct manipulation in your case, but read on...

After one or more incorrect login attempts to the cluster, the cluster starts locking you out for a certain period of time. Entering the correct PIN/SKC into the field will not result in success if the cluster is locked out. You have to refer to the immobilizer measuring blocks to see if the lockout timer is in effect. I believe the harder you try and hammer on it, the longer your lockout time becomes.

This seems like very useful info!! I've read before that you might have to reverse the digits, but have only tried immediately AFTER trying with them in the order VAGTACHO gave them to me. Because I didn't get any message from VCDS saying I'd used the wrong PIN, I just assumed there was some other error. It was only later I noticed that the CLUSTER was actually saying FAIL! I think this might be the issue and I'll try 03796 FIRST next time (when I get a chance).

I have also read others mention that they could never login using the PIN/4-digit SKC. Only with the 7 digit SKC and the date/workshop code. So, if I can't get the 4 digit PIN/SKC to work, what are my options? When I first put the FIS cluster in I got a dealer to do the adaption of the cluster and also program one key because VAGTACHO wouldn't log into my old cluster. So, I have a date and a workshop number. How can I calculate a 7 digit SKC with the info that I have? Can I find software to do this somewhere? Can I do some simple math (or not so simple - I was a physics/math major at uni)?

Thanks for the help!
-Chris

 

[dzcad90]

I have also read others mention that they could never login using the PIN/4-digit SKC. Only with the 7 digit SKC and the date/workshop code. So, if I can't get the 4 digit PIN/SKC to work, what are my options? When I first put the FIS cluster in I got a dealer to do the adaption of the cluster and also program one key because VAGTACHO wouldn't log into my old cluster. So, I have a date and a workshop number. How can I calculate a 7 digit SKC with the info that I have? Can I find software to do this somewhere? Can I do some simple math (or not so simple - I was a physics/math major at uni)?

Thanks for the help!
-Chris

I don't know the exact formula to compute the 7 digit SKC. I read a recent thread where someone said they never could get 4 digit SKCs to work, however this just makes no sense to me.

The date based system was a feeble attempt to keep a tight leash on Immobilizer service. The 7 digit SKC was given to the technician to input in to their VAG-1552, VAS-5051, whatever it was they used back in those times. The afforementioned tool already had the importer code and workshop code, and of course the date. The 7 digit SKC that was generated was good for immobilizer service on that date only. If you had to do more immobilizer service the next day, a new SKC needed to be generated. The VCDS has the ability to manually enter in the importer, work shop code, date generated, and the SKC. It then does the math and comes up with the 4 digit SKC to populate into the field.

There were a couple of utilities floating around that did the conversion from/to 7 Digit SKC however I forget the name. I had a copy of one back in 2004, however I lost it long ago. However, the correct 4 digit SKC will get you going. This is like knowing that you need to come up with two, only to do a math problem like this 2 = 2 * 2 / 2 Ultimately, the answer is 2.

I'd check your measuring blocks for immo lockout times. Remember, the immo lockout timer only decrements when the ignition is on.

 

[blizzard60]

I'd check your measuring blocks for immo lockout times. Remember, the immo lockout timer only decrements when the ignition is on.

I think you're on it here: 3 minutes left! I'll keep you posted in a few!

Cheers,
-Chris

 

[blizzard60]

I think you're on it here: 3 minutes left! I'll keep you posted in a few!

Cheers,
-Chris

Nope. I got the FAIL message in the cluster. Now I have to wait 20 minutes. I don't know what to do here.

 

[blizzard60]

Nope. I got the FAIL message in the cluster. Now I have to wait 20 minutes. I don't know what to do here.

Success!! In the end, the skc/pin was exactly as vagtacho gave me. My mistake was not checking measuring block 024 before trying to login.

thebigarniedog, everthing worked exactly as it should have. It was operator error. PM me when you get to your mfa swap if you have issues!

Thanks dzcad90, your help was invaluable!!

Cheers,
-Chris

 

[fitzski]

Just to clarify... your success was achieved by recovering the 4-digit PIN with VAG-TACHO, and then logging in with the 0+PIN (5-digits) in VCDS, after confirming the lockout period had expired (measuring block 024 in VCDS)?

Congrats on getting it done.

 

[blizzard60]

Just to clarify... your success was achieved by recovering the 4-digit PIN with VAG-TACHO, and then logging in with the 0+PIN (5-digits) in VCDS, after confirming the lockout period had expired (measuring block 024 in VCDS)?

Congrats on getting it done.

^ Exactly correct.

1) Plug vagtacho interface into your obd port.

2) Launch VAGTACHO software (I used version 1.7).

3) Choose "vdo new" from the options menu (I guess this will vary from car to car, but I believe this works for all IMMO 3 golfs/jettas.

4) Choose connect selected ecu. I had to do this several times. Sometime vagtacho would connect immediately and give me "access granted". However a couple of times I got a "access denied message". Just keep trying the "connect selected ecu" button - after a half dozen attempts it will connect!

5) Click "read pin"! Vagtacho will give you a 4 digit pin. Write this down!

6) Close vagtacho & disconnect the cable.

7) Plug in your vag-com cable and start vcds.

8) Go to instruments -> measuring blocks.

9) First thing to check is measuring block 024. The first field will show how much time is left on a count-down timer (this will ONLY show a number >0 if you've locked yourself out due to an unsuccessful login attempt). This is where I was having ALL my issues!! First, I thought I was having software issues with Vcds because vcds doesn't actually say the login failed when it does fail. It just hangs for a second then reconnects to the cluster and gives you a cryptic message that "the last login was dropped because of an error" or something. So I never thought the pin was wrong, or that I was trying when the timer was on, I just thought vcds wasn't communicating with my cluster properly. When dzcad90 suggested I look into the timer, I checked and sure enough I had activated the timer.

10) If ALL required parameters are met (see this link http://www.ross-tech.com/vag-com/cars/Immo3-measuring-blocks.html for all instrument measuring blocks), click "login". Use 0 + the 4 digit pin vagtacho gave you (0XXXX). Mine worked EXACTLY as vagtacho gave it to me.

11) continue with whatever job you set out to do!

Something to note! The lockout timer ONLY counts when the ignition is on. I thought I understood this, but it actually means that if you turn your ignition off, the next time you turn it on the timer STARTS again from the beginning! This was giving me issues before because I figured even if I locked myself out, driving back and forth to work would clear the counter! NO!!!! Check measuring block 24!

Good luck,
-Chris

 

[thebigarniedog]

^ Exactly correct.

1) Plug vagtacho interface into your obd port.

2) Launch VAGTACHO software (I used version 1.7).

3) Choose "vdo new" from the options menu (I guess this will vary from car to car, but I believe this works for all IMMO 3 golfs/jettas.

4) Choose connect selected ecu. I had to do this several times. Sometime vagtacho would connect immediately and give me "access granted". However a couple of times I got a "access denied message". Just keep trying the "connect selected ecu" button - after a half dozen attempts it will connect!

5) Click "read pin"! Vagtacho will give you a 4 digit pin. Write this down!

6) Close vagtacho & disconnect the cable.

7) Plug in your vag-com cable and start vcds.

8) Go to instruments -> measuring blocks.

9) First thing to check is measuring block 024. The first field will show how much time is left on a count-down timer (this will ONLY show a number >0 if you've locked yourself out due to an unsuccessful login attempt). This is where I was having ALL my issues!! First, I thought I was having software issues with Vcds because vcds doesn't actually say the login failed when it does fail. It just hangs for a second then reconnects to the cluster and gives you a cryptic message that "the last login was dropped because of an error" or something. So I never thought the pin was wrong, or that I was trying when the timer was on, I just thought vcds wasn't communicating with my cluster properly. When dzcad90 suggested I look into the timer, I checked and sure enough I had activated the timer.

10) If ALL required parameters are met (see this link http://www.ross-tech.com/vag-com/cars/Immo3-measuring-blocks.html for all instrument measuring blocks), click "login". Use 0 + the 4 digit pin vagtacho gave you (0XXXX). Mine worked EXACTLY as vagtacho gave it to me.

11) continue with whatever job you set out to do!

Something to note! The lockout timer ONLY counts when the ignition is on. I thought I understood this, but it actually means that if you turn your ignition off, the next time you turn it on the timer STARTS again from the beginning! This was giving me issues before because I figured even if I locked myself out, driving back and forth to work would clear the counter! NO!!!! Check measuring block 24!

Good luck,
-Chris

So that I am following you, for the MFA cluster swap out on the IMMO3s from your above post (step 11) would be this step:

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=459837&postcount=20 ?

Blizzard60, I appreciate all the information you posted. It does makes it clear.

 

[blizzard60]

So that I am following you, for the MFA cluster swap out on the IMMO3s from your above post (step 11) would be this step:
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=459837&postcount=20 ?
Blizzard60, I appreciate all the information you posted. It does makes it clear.

Sorry I didn't notice your post!!! The [unfortunate] answer to your question is yes and no!!!

Basically for a cluster swap you'll be following a bunch of these steps. Here's how I'd break it down for you!

With the old cluster in your car:

Steps 1 -> 6 exactly as written.

Then, follow these instructions, they are as close to a "manual" as you'll find, only use the 4 digit pin you got from VAGTACHO + a leading zero instead of the 7 digit SKC/workshop code/date combo in Ross-Tech's steps 9 & 16 (please note there is a paragraph at the end of that page which you need to read if you are installing a cluster that hasn't been set back to "new"):

http://www.ross-tech.com/vag-com/cars/Immo3-cluster-swapping.html

The one caveat to all this is that my VAGTACHO would NOT log into the cluster that came in my '04 Jetta Wagon. I HAD to take it to a dealer to do the new cluster adaption because there was NO way I was gonna get my PIN. I drove to the dealer with the cluster hanging out of the dash, and handed them the new cluster and said, please just PLUG the new cluster in, adapt it and program one key. It took them all of 20 minutes because my FIS cluster had been reset to "new", so they didn't need a pin from it or anything. They charged me $50 for this job, which I consider not bad seeing as they normally charge $55 to program one key. I have to say though, that the tech thought what I was doing was really cool, so he told the advisor just to charge me for a 1/2 hour flat. I'm not sure all service departments are going to be like that when you roll in with a used cluster you bought on the internet...

BTW, I got your PM, but there's a bunch of helpful info in this thread now. If you still have problems, please shoot me a pm!

Cheers,
-Chris

 

[MOGolf]

The one caveat to all this is that my VAGTACHO would NOT log into the cluster that came in my '04 Jetta Wagon.

That's because you need a newer version than 1.7.

 

[blizzard60]

That's because you need a newer version than 1.7.

I tried 2.2 but it wouldn't see my cable...

 

[MOGolf]

That's right. A newer version needs a different cable too.

 

[blizzard60]

That's right. A newer version needs a different cable too.

Interesting, seeing as they person who sold me the cable said it was good for up to 2.5!!!

 

[Steve99]

I have 2.5 and the matching cable if anyone in the GVR needs a pin read out.

 

[blizzard60]

I have 2.5 and the matching cable if anyone in the GVR needs a pin read out.

Seriously??!?! I made a post a couple of months ago asking!!

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=247414

Where were you?! (I'm just pulling your leg, of course!).

Cheers,
-Chris

 

[Steve99]

I just got the cable the other day! I am still trying to code some keys with the stupid immobilizer, I'm posting this while sitting in the car waiting for the timer to count down, 24 minutes to go!

I believe I did find my 4 digit pin in the eeprom dump, so if anyone can dump the eeprom but not retrieve the code finding it manually may also be an option. I suspect if you can dump the eeprom then you can also just read out the pin with Vag Tacho

I have tried my 4 digit pin many times without any success. I am now going to try what I believe is the 7 digit pin with a date etc, maybe I'll have more luck.

ok, 22 minutes to go.

 

[Steve99]

Success!!!

OK, here is my story, perhaps it will help others when coding keys.

Bought a replacement RF keyfob from VW China - 55 USD shipped for the remote and uncut HAA key with RFID transponder(immobilizer) in it. All parts the exact part # of my existing key.
Bought Vag Tacho 2.5 cable and software for 36.99 USD shipped via ebay.
Bought a regular serial cable for 13 USD shipped via ebay.

I used Vag Tacho 2.5 to read the PIN out of my 2007 City Golf(Mark IV Golf still sold in Canada)
It had no problems reading the PIN.

Had a local VW dealer cut the key for 20 bucks(he did a lousy job but it works)

I used VagCam 409.1 with the 13 dollar cable to program the RF portion of the key without any issues.
I then tried using VagCom 409.1 to program the immobilizer. I tried many times without success using the pin code Vag Tacho gave me. I was always waiting for the countdown timer to expire before attempting to login. The countdown timer before programming was up to 40 minutes and I was spending a lot of time sitting in my car, lol.

Today a kind soul from this forum generated the 7 digit pin from my 4 digit pin along with the importer/date/dealer number. I have read that some cars seem to only accept the 7 digit sequence(which is a little odd since I am sure VagCom simply generates the 4 digit pin from the entered numbers) I sat in the car for 45 minutes waiting and tried using the 7 digit SKC. VagCom told me the numbers were "implausible" and wouldn't accept them.

I decided to throw caution to the wind and figured I'd try adding the new key with Vag Tacho 2.5.
Fired it up and it accepted the pin without any issues. It has several options, one of them being to add a new key without erasing the old ones first. I tried adding just one new key. When I was done the original key and the new key both failed the immobilizer test (oh oh!)
I logged in again(no waiting needed as a successful login reset the countdown timer to 0.0) This time I selected 2 keys to be programmed and checked the box to erase old keys. Followed the onscreen instructions and was successful. Both my original and new keys are now 100% functional.

A fun project indeed now that its all working. I am not totally against paying VW to do stuff on my cars but none of the local dealers could even give a firm dollar figure for how much key programming would cost. They all started at an hour of shop time, but then said thats only if everything goes right when they tried programming it. I think VW has failed at this aspect of the cars engineering when even they don't know for sure how long it will take or if it will work right the first time.

With that all said if I can help anyone in the Vancouver, BC area code keys/remotes by all means let me know. Its the info on this forum that made my life a little easier(and let me raise/lower my windows via remote) so I'd like to give something back to the community if possible.

 

[blizzard60]

Success!!!

Hey Steve,

I'm really sorry I didn't get back to your PM. I most often check the forums on my phone, and I can never see the number of PMs I have waiting, so I forget to check!!!

Any way, I'm really glad you got it figured anyway! Nice work. Makes me wonder what the issue was with VCDS connecting with the 4-digit PIN...

Cheers,
-Chris

 

[penclnck]

Any way, I'm really glad you got it figured anyway! Nice work. Makes me wonder what the issue was with VCDS connecting with the 4-digit PIN...

Not likely. I've done countless number of key adaptions using VCDS without issue, I can never mark up a failure due to VCDS. But I have seen several times where you can't get the PIN to work no matter what tool you are using, touch the battery cables together and then things will work.

 

[compu_85]

{after removing both cables from the battery} touch the battery cables together and then things will work.

Just to be safe

-J

 

[Steve99]

No Idea what it was, perhaps the car was just being picky as I am sure VCDS and Vag Tacho were using the same procedure.
I'm just happy I was able to get the immobilizer coded so I have a spare working key for the car.

 

[blizzard60]

Any way, I'm really glad you got it figured anyway! Nice work. Makes me wonder what the issue was with VCDS connecting with the 4-digit PIN...

Not likely. I've done countless number of key adaptions using VCDS without issue, I can never mark up a failure due to VCDS.

I'm sorry, I tried to word that specifically so it didn't sound like I was blaming VCDS. Obviously I failed!!! It was more attempting to say something along the lines of "I wonder what the issue was that CAUSED VCDS to not be able to connect"!!

Hope I haven't miffed anyone !!

-Chris