Mods v.s. Emissions Testing in WA

FlyTDI Guy · Nov 25, 2001

Anybody have any input relating to emissions tests performed in Washington State for diesels compared to gas engines? In particular, Chipped, Evry modded, EGR bypassed, de-cat'd, etc. TDIs.

Do these mods push the TDI out of the acceptable 'envelope' and which ones in particular are definite "no-go's" when it comes to our emissions tests here.

FlyTDI Guy · Nov 25, 2001

Well OK... After some post-post research, I've come up with this directly from the WA State DOL website...

The diesel emission check:
Because diesels produce a different mixture of emissions, the emission check for diesel vehicles is different from that for gasoline-powered vehicles. Diesel vehicles are checked for opacity – the density of the exhaust smoke – using a “snap idle” test. This test shows the concentration of fine particles in the exhaust. These particles, which give diesel exhaust its color, can be deeply inhaled and can cause lung damage over time. Less smoke means less pollutant particles are being emitted. During the test, an opacity meter is connected to the exhaust pipe. In neutral, the accelerator is fully depressed and released. The meter automatically takes the highest reading. The vehicle must pass three snap idle sequences in a row. Up to ten tries are allowed. The opacity limit depends on the model year of the vehicle: 1968-73 = 70 percent; 1974-91 = 60 percent; and newer vehicles = 40 percent. An additional 10 percent is allowed for vehicles inspected above 1,000 feet in elevation (Spokane area).

These numbers would seem quite liberal. I would assume this allows for many of the previously mentioned mods to be performed safely. Any personal experience out there?

[ November 25, 2001: Message edited by: FlyTDI Guy ]

tadc · Nov 25, 2001

No, but general consensus is that it's pretty hard for a TDI to fail an opacity test. For extra insurance, use a good fuel additive and take the car for an "italian tune-up" run before the test to blow excess carbon from the exhaust system.

FYI the cat is a particulate trap so de-catting might cause you to fail. Rumor has it that the power gain with no cat is ~1 HP so don't bother. Even the VW TDI racing team keeps the cat installed.

TDIMeister · Nov 26, 2001

The catalysts installed in all TDIs to date are not particulate traps, just plain oxidizing catalyst variety. Only one company has Diesel automobiles in production with a particulate trap: PSA-Peugeot-Citroën, though others are following suit as Euro-IV emissions standards loom in the near future.

TDIMeister · Nov 26, 2001

As a postscript to my statement above, it should not be taken as any kind of endorsement for removing the cat.

I might add as food for thought that recent studies indicate that on catalysts that were tested, due to fuel sulphur, although VOF (volitile organic fraction) emissions are reduced (unreacted compounds), the result is instead much higher emissions of sulphur oxides and sulphates. The debate rages on regarding which is the greater of evils.

All the more reason for sulphur-free Diesel or Biodiesel.

FlyTDI Guy · Nov 26, 2001

Thanks for the input. I seriously doubt I will ever de-cat my TDI, but I may chip it or Evry mod it amongst other things. I am using ULSD dino right now but as soon as the warrantee goes away, I may pursue some performance options. Biodiesel is also on the list of maybes. Thanks again for responding and I'll continue to glean what I can from this excellent board.

[ November 26, 2001: Message edited by: FlyTDI Guy ]

tadc · Nov 26, 2001

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by tdimeister:
The catalysts installed in all TDIs to date are not particulate traps, just plain oxidizing catalyst variety. Only one company has Diesel automobiles in production with a particulate trap: PSA-Peugeot-Citroën, though others are following suit as Euro-IV emissions standards loom in the near future.<hr></blockquote>

My mistake... so what does the oxidizing cat do? Removes particulate through a different method?

I didn't mean to say the cat was of any particular design, just that it primarily reduces particulate output. Am I wrong?

MayorDiamondJoeQuimby · Nov 27, 2001

Aren't there federal laws regarding emissions? Can't you be fined $$$$$$ for tampering with emissions controls?

TDIMeister · Nov 27, 2001

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by MayorDiamondJoeQuimby:
Aren't there federal laws regarding emissions? Can't you be fined $$$$$$ for tampering with emissions controls?<hr></blockquote>

Yes there are, and yes you can. I don't think anyone is seriously proposing removing the catalyst, as it has been shown that it does absolutely no useful gain in power, only at the expense of increased emissions.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by tadc:
My mistake... so what does the oxidizing cat do? Removes particulate through a different method?

I didn't mean to say the cat was of any particular design, just that it primarily reduces particulate output. Am I wrong?
<hr></blockquote>

The oxidizing catalyst actually does little to reduce soot. It specifically oxidises carbon monoxide and unburned hydrocarboons, both of which are not produced in large quantities in a Diesel anyway.

Also, it oxidises the carbonaceous component of soot and so-called "volitile organic fraction" (VOF), a.k.a. "soluble organic fraction" (SOF) in other circles. Problem is, the soot that we see out the tail pipe is not pure carbon, or else it would be easy to remove. Soot particles are formed by a very complex process that is still not fully understood. They contain carbon and these SOFs, but also precipitated sulphur compounds from fuel.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by FlyTDI Guy:
Thanks for the input. I seriously doubt I will ever de-cat my TDI, but I may chip it or Evry mod it amongst other things. I am using ULSD dino right now but as soon as the warrantee goes away, I may pursue some performance options. Biodiesel is also on the list of maybes. Thanks again for responding and I'll continue to glean what I can from this excellent board.<hr></blockquote>

In talking with an engineer formerly from Cummins (a lubricants specialist, GeWilli

), and in light of my ongoing quest for smoke-free power in a Diesel, I'm beginning to believe that the Evry mod is not a good idea, and chipping pushes the envelope of acceptability in my personal humble opinion, especially as someone who has a very high consciousness of soot output.

The reason is that most of the performance mods out there, i.e. tuning box, chip, resistor, increase performance by increasing fuelling, but they do so by extending the injection event through a longer period. From a soot standpoint, this extends the combustion event later down the expansion stroke, during which time soot formation is more prevalent.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a performance Luddite. My car is chipped, and I love it. A lay-person modifies his car with a tuning box, resistor and/or chip and says, "Wow! This car really hauls now!" The powertrain engineer wants to understand how that extra power is made, what the trade-offs are, and whether something will go boom down the road.

The more I learn about how VW engineers themselves developed higher output TDIs, the more I want to mimick them, as I can say with total certainty that they involved far more than simply throwing more fuel with a "chip change".

I totally agree that your right-foot is the sole and ultimate determinant, so I'm not discouraging anyone from performing modifications. Knowledge is power, and my aim is hopefully to add to it for those who want to know. For myself and the vast majority of people, I tap that extra power that the above mods provide maybe 2% of the time at best. It's a fair compromise. However, a compromise has two sides, remember.

FlyTDI Guy · Nov 27, 2001

And I agree. I am also sensitive to ecological issues and understand that there is a 'balance' when making power. I already smoke some under heavy acceleration (unburnt stuff), by adding more fuel and no air is an incomplete and unacceptable answer. I AM looking for more performance but am unwilling to accept large amounts of 'collateral damage'. The Evry mod may add more fuel, but without more air, the ratio of burnt/unburnt will decline at the cost of mileage and environment. It may be a 'cheep' mod but an incomplete one. I would hope that chipping, and the sophistication it affords, would bring all the elements under the ECU's control into harmony and acceptable emmissions levels (disregarding the now-slipping clutch).

You guys are great, keep it comin'.... (or was that Cummins?

)

[ November 27, 2001: Message edited by: FlyTDI Guy ]

tadc · Nov 27, 2001

My smoke levels (chipped 01 golf, 13k miles) have gone from moderate to near zero after advancing my timing from well below to well above the midline (WELL above, as in slightly off the top of the scale... but that was unintentional).

TDIMeister · Nov 29, 2001

There are two different issues about fuelling and making power. One is an issue of quantity, and the other is an issue of WHEN and HOW LONG injection occurs to get that extra fuel into the engine. Chips, Evry mod and tuning boxes cannot control the injection pressure (how high and how long it holds at that level -- past a certain extent that's determined by plunger geometry and by the profile of the cam in the pump.

In reading about the development of the TDI and in particular the 190 hp TDI-R, it becomes apparent to me that VW places a high importance on keeping the injection window within 36-degrees, for the main reason of keeping soot down at such high fuelling levels. So it's not simply an issue of more fuel that the resistor and TB gives, but WHEN that fuel is supplied to the cylinder that is equally if not more important. Advancing the timing to begin sooner WILL help reduce soot to a certain degree, but it does not address the overall DURATION of the injection event.

And just because you don't see soot out the tailpipe doesn't mean it's not there. Have someone drive your own car, follow behind and instruct him/her to tramp on the go-pedal, especially below 2k RPMs or in the upper ranges and see what happens. Or if you are still not convinced, just do an oil analysis before and after mods. It's true the A4 cars put out less soot than the A3/B4, and this is proven by observation and by oil analysis. There are a number of reasons why this is.

AutoDiesel · Nov 29, 2001

If there is any question about passing the opacity test here in WA just fill up with B50 biodiesel and you'll have no problems at all!!!!!

What smoke I had (only under heavy throttle) was gone by the time I reached B20 to B30 range. B50 will give it a little extra edge.

FlyTDI Guy · Nov 29, 2001

The legality of removing/bypassing/disabling emissions devices is significant to me. I would prefer to make more power without these types of mods. Running B50 for the sake of the test only may be viable but somewhat devious. If I commit to bio, it will be for other reasons. The acceptable opacity levels seem generous enough that chipping only shouldn't be a problem come testing time. Chipping also seems to be the most comprehensive way of making power (in one easy step anyway). I live in one of the 'tightest' environmental states in the union and am a newbie to the diesel world. Your input has been very helpful indeed !!

[ November 29, 2001: Message edited by: FlyTDI Guy ]

AutoDiesel · Dec 4, 2001

FlyTDi Guy,
I agree with you totally about disconnection emission devices. We bought the car for its economy, safety, and its ability of not impacting the environment like all of the fat-arse SUV's out on the road.I haven't done it and the mods I've made don't change the smoke output very much if at all compared to stock. By using biodiesel, which I do up to B80 in the winter - B100 in the summer, the reduction in emissions are proven and the benefit to the engine is only positive.

CCV and EGR bypass are not on my list for modifications to our car. Diesel fuel quality will get better in the future and any problems from the bad fuel typically available now can be mitigated with the use of biodiesel or other fuel additives like PowerService or Redline 85, which I use about every other tankfull.

I guess the trade-off would be if in fact biodiesel would counteract the effects of modifications to the engine. I think it does. With super large injectors, chip, and TB, that might not be so. But I don't plan on going there!
What I've done to our engine provides more than enough power and we still get 48+ mpg travelling 75 to 80 mph and our around town average is up to about 35-36.

[ December 05, 2001: Message edited by: AutoDiesel ]

JeffT · Dec 4, 2001

Plus its illegal, unethical, and immoral to tamper with your vehicle's emissions control equipment in the good old USA.

Sun Baked GL · Dec 5, 2001

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by FlyTDI Guy:
Running B50 for the sake of the test only may be viable but somewhat devious.<hr></blockquote>

I don't remember there being a standardized fuel requirement for these tests, only that the vehicle will earn a pass/fail on the fuel you drive in on.

Plus Wal-Mart sells some magic bottles to help get gasser past the emissions test. So I don't see too much wrong with loading your vehicle up on premium fuel before you go in for the test.

Plus being devious is standard for lawyers who wish to exploit loopholes in the law and earn a decent living. Nothing wrong with following a lawyer through some of those legal loopholes (as long as it's not a loophole in the tax code.)

jorpet · Dec 5, 2001

Maybe it is a PNW thing, but I too want my car to be "lite" on the environmental side. That said, I don't believe it is in anyway unethical or even sneaky to use biodiesel to help pass the test.

What this does is to show what the car would get if we used non-sulphur/high cetane fuel in a diesel. It is the oil companies and their lawyers that keep us from getting this type of fuel out of every pump in the country.

I am using B20 now on a regular basis so it isn't even something special I would be doing for the test. Just something special for the environment.

It is also important to note that not all of the pollution related benefits of biodiesel are related to the fuel source. Much of it is the fact that there is no sulphur in the fuel and very high cetane values. If we could get this quality of fuel all of the time, everywhere, then NOx catalysts and particulate traps can be used. At that point diesels will have lower on road emissions than any car except for EVs.

TDIMeister · Dec 5, 2001

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by jorpet:
It is also important to note that not all of the pollution related benefits of biodiesel are related to the fuel source. Much of it is the fact that there is no sulphur in the fuel and very high cetane values. If we could get this quality of fuel all of the time, everywhere, then NOx catalysts and particulate traps can be used. At that point diesels will have lower on road emissions than any car except for EVs.<hr></blockquote>

thumbs up!

JeffT · Dec 5, 2001

I agree Jorpet, use of better fuel to affect cleaner emissions isn't illegal, in fact it should be encouraged!!

Removing or otherwise tampering with your car's emissions equipment IS ILLEGAL, at least in the USA.

AutoDiesel · Dec 5, 2001

As far as I'm concerned, the reasons for disconnecting certain oem emission devices (like the ccv and egr) are null and void when using a quality fuel like biodiesel!
Biodiesel is considered a alternative clean fuel here in WA state. Using it to reduce emissions is the main point for its use for government and businesses. If it does the same for our little TDi's, the more it is used the better!!

[ December 05, 2001: Message edited by: AutoDiesel ]

FlyTDI Guy · Dec 5, 2001

Well, OK then... It is my understanding that VWoA still has issues with BioDiesel at this point in time. I do have warrantee concerns with this. I gotta be honest here.. My primary reason for buying the TDI was fuel economy, i.e. $$$. As a side benefit, I am helping the environment as well by using less fuel, polluting less, etc. I am also interested in increasing the performance of my TDI. My concern was/is which performance mods affect the emissions levels the most, and would they put me outside the acceptable levels here in WA.

As for 'devious', that is just my own brand of morality at work. I too have seen the 'fix in a can' solutions to passing emissions tests and figure if you need that stuff to pass, you'd be better off actually fixing the car's real problems. Somehow this reeks of the 'sawdust in the tranny' trick. In short, if I had modified my TDI to the point that it wouldn't pass emissions tests without running biodiesel, that would qualify as devious to me unless I actually ran biodiesel all the time. Some very good points have been argued here, such as intake cleanliness, etc. all in favor of bio for sure. The list just keeps growing for reasons to use it.

JeffT · Dec 6, 2001

There's also the issue of a large monitary fine if caught. Its a violation of a federal statute to tamper with your emission's equipment in the US regardless of the cleanliness of your exhaust.

GeWilli · Dec 6, 2001

don't make JeffT mad or he might sic the emissions police on you

AutoDiesel · Dec 6, 2001

If VW has any "issues" with our biodiesel in the USA, they need to talk with our government. Biodiesel is a legal fuel that is taxed and authorized for any diesel engine on the road. Yes, older diesel cars and trucks will need to update fuel lines and such but it is a fuel none-the-less.

And......it is encouraged to use biodiesel to reduce emissions and for increased lubricity. Correct me someone if I'm wrong, but I remember reading a article some time back stating one of the farm belt states might make B20 a requiredmix for sale at the pump. What is poor VWoA going to do when it is all we can use? Get with the program VWoA!!! It's the way to go!!!!!

FlyTDI Guy · Dec 6, 2001

Hmmm... For the record. I do NOT endorse, nor do I intend to remove, modify or otherwise tamper with emissions controls on my TDI for the sake of performance. My initial references to such practices were perhaps in error. I only included them because I have read many entries regarding them elsewhere on this forum. In retrospect, I should have probably not even mentioned them. It is a common trick to unhook PCVs, lean the carb, block EGRs and otherwise to make an otherwise 'dirty' car cleaner and hopefully pass the emissions tests.

Fix the friggin' car

[ December 06, 2001: Message edited by: FlyTDI Guy ]

GoFaster · Dec 10, 2001

Re chipping versus emissions:

Any significant difference between stock emission levels and chipped emission levels should only show up when the engine is running outside the stock parameters (i.e. loaded beyond whatever stock full load was). If you're cruising down the highway - or cruising on a dynamometer during the emissions test - the amount of fuel that the engine is using will be the same because the load on the engine is the same. Injection timing at part load is about the same; EGR percentage under those conditions will be about the same. Those are all the parameters that affect emissions which a chip can change, but under cruising conditions, they're insignificantly different.

The amount of time spent at full load for most North American drivers is pretty small, this is largely why chipping has little or no effect on fuel consumption and ought to have little or no effect on overall emissions.

Even EPA testing does not consider full load operation. A good many gasoline engines run rich under heavy load in order to protect valves, pistons, and turbochargers - and rich operation means high exhaust emissions.

Around here, the emissions test for diesels consists of a visual check for smoke while the engine is idling, and a visual check that factory-installed emission control systems are in place.

troy_heagy · Dec 28, 2001

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by FlyTDI Guy:
Well, OK then... It is my understanding that VWoA still has issues with BioDiesel at this point in time. <hr></blockquote>

How can VWoA complain about biodiesel when their boss Volkswagen Germany says it is perfectly OK?

Troy

Mods v.s. Emissions Testing in WA

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