Mobile 1 esp 5w-40 in a gasser

TooSlick

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Hammer,

That's certainly true, but in the mid 1990's the turbo engines didn't represent a high percentage of the motors being sold by VW & Audi.

I'd agree about the older, 1.8L turboes being fairly easy on synthetic oil. I've tested 5-6 different Amsoil products in my 2002 Audi TT Quattro with the 225 Hp engine (everything from 0w-30 to 10w-40). After 10k I'm still seeing decent performance margins on the oil, with TBN's
in the 4.5-5.5 range and only minimal shearing & fuel dilution. If course this is in a warm climate with mostly highway driving, ie. pretty ideal conditions. My TT also holds almost five quarts of oil, so it's not like the A4's & Passats with the very small (3.7 qts?) sumps.

TS
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
The best selling country for Audi outside of Germany from 1995 through 2000 was the USA*.

The best selling Audi model here from 1995 through 2000 was the A4.

The most popular engine in the 1996 through 2000 A4 was the 1.8t engine.

I worked at a dealer that also sold Audi. They were as common as houseflies there. That engine was on Ward's 10 best engines list more than once. The 1.8t Audi A4 single handedly turned Audi sales around in this country. Our dealer sold more A4s than all the other models combined. They still do. Even more than the A3.

It also became quite popular in 1998 when the Passat once again rode on a shared platform with the Audi, and continued to be THE most popular engine choice on the B5 Passat through 2005, far and away outselling the V6 and of course the W8 and TDI variants that showed up late in the model run.

Now VAG as a whole, globally, probably did not sell a whole lot of 1.8t engines given that much of their core markets prefer other types of engines (Europe: diesel, Africa, South America: cheap gas/alcohol and/or low tech engines). But here it was quite popular. We still get lots of 1.8t cars through this shop, even though they have not sold any here for 5 years!

* China has taken over this distinction a couple years ago. :cool:
 
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TooSlick

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I can believe the data on China; we spent a couple weeks over there in the fall of '08, and Beiijing/Shanghai were both loaded with Golfs/Jettas/Passats, along with a bunch of executive A6's and A8's (all of them seemingly black). I talked to a GM marketing guy on the flight from Detroit to Narita, who was telling me about GM's rapid growth over there as well. GM went from selling 20,000 cars per year to 1.5 million in a very short time. It seems the Buick is the luxury car of choice for many of the upper middle class Chinese in the biggest cities - go figure.

TS
 

ruking

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I can believe the data on China; we spent a couple weeks over there in the fall of '08, and Beiijing/Shanghai were both loaded with Golfs/Jettas/Passats, along with a bunch of executive A6's and A8's (all of them seemingly black). I talked to a GM marketing guy on the flight from Detroit to Narita, who was telling me about GM's rapid growth over there as well. GM went from selling 20,000 cars per year to 1.5 million in a very short time. It seems the Buick is the luxury car of choice for many of the upper middle class Chinese in the biggest cities - go figure.

TS
Yes, I think for far too long, VW's made (supply vendors also) in China has had perjorative connotations. So while I have heard that VW's in China comply to a lower (world) emissions standard (than either Europe or the US or CA :p), the cars are very well made. I am sure VW in ANY MARKET needs to radically improve reliability. VW certainly builds durable cars.

I personally think technology and world markets today will cut down the cycle time that it will take for China to become world class, aka meet world class standards. So for example, when Japanese cars first hit the US for @ least a decade to 2, you could not PAY me to to have a Japanese car. Needless to say Japanese cars have made enormous strides, enough to bankrupt GM, Chysler, and bring Ford to the breaking points., etc. VW even has gone through "painfull periods" and it is part owned by union labor, family management, management and government (Lower Saxony, etc)
 
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oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
Given the incredible craptastic nature of the Chinese cars at NAIAS, it is no wonder that VAG products, even those assembled there, are so popular.

Take the worst car you have ever owned, multiply that by 20, and you would have the Geely HiFun. Seriously, it was laughable. The Yugo was better.
 

ruking

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Given the incredible craptastic nature of the Chinese cars at NAIAS, it is no wonder that VAG products, even those assembled there, are so popular.

Take the worst car you have ever owned, multiply that by 20, and you would have the Geely HiFun. Seriously, it was laughable. The Yugo was better.
Again I think it really follows the model I have described to a T. Rewind to a 1970 VW Beetle, bought in 1971, (geez 41/42 years ago?) is another example. Incredible craptastic nature of the then American, Japanese, Italian, French, English, etc cars at the time; made the Beetle almost a no brainer. To further follow the script, it is no wonder VAG products were so popular.

Now FF to 2003/2010 (my first 03 TDI) VAG products "command" 2.5% of the American market !!?? ;)

So one deviance is VW in China probably wants to be the dominant force in China and is using "quality, durability and reliability" as competitive tools. ..." Volkswagen Group China enjoys sales of about 18% (2007) of the Chinese market,[4] and is the largest foreign carmaker"... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Group_China
 
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Cool Breeze

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The turbo gas engines don't seem to have much troubles with oils meeting 502.00 (although I admit those oils also meet 505.00 and sometimes 505.01, like the Pentosin HP2 we use here). But boy they will tooef in a hurry with Jiffy Pube oils. :p

Oh, and VAG had mutivalve turbo engines in 1995 (1996 model year). They are hardly 'new'. The FSI engines have been around for 10 years now, too (just not here).
This is all pre-ethanol correct? I know in my little world the BMW LL04 (Low/Mid SAPS) specfication explicitly excludes gas models in the US due to sulphur and ethanol inconsistancies. BMW has instead states LL01 for gassers. I also read somewhere that MB has done the same. 229.5 for gassers only and 229.51 for diesels. That was why I suggested that the ESP 229.51 would not be a good fit for the OP's. If the VW spec for the car is pre-ethanol than it may no longer be applicable however I'm ignorant when it comes to the numerous VAG specifications.
 

benIV

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what about the rumors that ethanol from sugar cane is much more efficient and generally better for a motor than the ethanol from corn?
 

TooSlick

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So you wanna know if Rum is tastier than Moonshine? I honestly don't think the engine cares what the source of the ethanol is, provided any impurities are removed after distillation.
 

TooSlick

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CoolBreeze,

Out of curiosity, I ran the Amsoil 5w-40 Euro oil (VW 505.01/BMW LL04/MB 229.51), in my 2006 Subaru Outback for 10,000 miles. These are the numbers:

Wear Metals:

Fe, 7 ppm
Cr, 0 ppm
Al, 2 ppm
Cu, 2 ppm
Pb, 2 ppm
Sn, 0 ppm
Ni, 0 ppm

Contaminents:

Silicon, 14 ppm
Sodium, 4 ppm
Potassium, 1 ppm

Oil Additives:

Ca, 1414 ppm
Mg, 7 ppm
Boron, 32 ppm
P, 500 ppm
Zn, 628 ppm



Physical/Chemical Properties:

Vis. @100C, 12.1 Cst
Fuel <1.0%
TBN, 2.41
Oxidation, 23 Abs/cm
Nitration, 28 Abs/ cm

So you can see, the additive package was basically depleted after 10,000 miles. This engine holds 4L of oil, gets ~ 27 mpg & generates 175 Hp out of 2.5L.

My take is that you can certainly use the mid SAPS
oils like MB 229.51 and BMW LL-04 in North American
gas engines, abeit with a shortened service interval (compared to a BMW LL-01 or MB 229.5 Spec oil).

TS
 
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RalphVa

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The 5w40 would be okay, but he'll get 1 mpg or better fuel economy with a 0w30 Mobil 1. This is what I use in all my engines except the TDI. I switched from 5w40 on our 240D to this 0w30 and got 1 mpg or so better fuel economy (base right at 30 mpg).
 

T_D_I_POWER

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.....So you can see, the additive package was basically depleted after 10,000 miles.....
That's quite a drop ~70% from the stock TBN 8

vs

M1 ESP FM 5W40 @ 10k OCI TBN 4.54 ~ 43.3% drop from stock TBN 8

TooSlick said:
My take is that you can certainly use the mid SAPS oils like MB 229.51.....

TS
Isn't MB229.51 a low SAPS spec oil?
 
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Bob_Fout

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That's quite a drop ~70% from the stock TBN 8

vs

M1 ESP FM 5W40 @ 10k OCI TBN 4.54 ~ 43.3% drop from stock TBN 8



Isn't MB229.51 a low SAPS spec oil?
One of these engines is gas, one is diesel. The gas engine consumes more fuel, depletes the TBN faster. There's a correlation between MPG and TBN depletion (once you factor in sump size too).
 

Bob_Fout

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What's the correlation? That's ~ 30% less than a Diesel engine?
The more fuel you burn for the same sump size, the quicker TBN will deplete. City vs. highway, gas vs. diesel, small vs. large engine are all factors.

It's not surprising TooSlicks fuel-thirsty Subie sparker used more fuel over 10K miles than a fuel-sipping diesel.
 

ruking

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This might not add anything to the discussion, but another reason to stay with the Mobil One 5w40 TDT (03 TDI- ALH), if one does not need low saps and even as if the low saps ESP formula is VW 507.00, i.e. back wards compatible.

Now while I would have no issues using the ESP 5w40 MB 229.51 on an 09 TDI (CBEA), but it in the warranty phase.
 

Cool Breeze

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CoolBreeze,

Out of curiosity, I ran the Amsoil 5w-40 Euro oil (VW 505.01/BMW LL04/MB 229.51), in my 2006 Subaru Outback for 10,000 miles. These are the numbers:

Wear Metals:

Fe, 7 ppm
Cr, 0 ppm
Al, 2 ppm
Cu, 2 ppm
Pb, 2 ppm
Sn, 0 ppm
Ni, 0 ppm

Contaminents:

Silicon, 14 ppm
Sodium, 4 ppm
Potassium, 1 ppm

Oil Additives:

Ca, 1414 ppm
Mg, 7 ppm
Boron, 32 ppm
P, 500 ppm
Zn, 628 ppm



Physical/Chemical Properties:

Vis. @100C, 12.1 Cst
Fuel <1.0%
TBN, 2.41
Oxidation, 23 Abs/cm
Nitration, 28 Abs/ cm

So you can see, the additive package was basically depleted after 10,000 miles. This engine holds 4L of oil, gets ~ 27 mpg & generates 175 Hp out of 2.5L.

My take is that you can certainly use the mid SAPS
oils like MB 229.51 and BMW LL-04 in North American
gas engines, abeit with a shortened service interval (compared to a BMW LL-01 or MB 229.5 Spec oil).

TS
I agree with a shortened OCI there should be no problems. I just didn't want the OP to think it was "OK" w/out some qualifiers. Any idea on TAN?
 

TooSlick

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TDI Power,

Fuel dilution from gasoline containing 10% ethanol is much worse for engine oil than fuel dilution from ULSD fuel. In fact, since the introduction of the 15 ppm fuel, TBN depletion is a non-issue in TDI's. Even the VW 507.00 oils easily last for 10k+ with the new ultra low sulfur fuel. (This would not be the case with the older 500 ppm sulfur fuel)

If you ran the Mobil 1/ESP, 5w-40 in a gas engine, you'd see much more degradation than in any TDI - even one like Bobs that's highly modified.

TS
 

TooSlick

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CB,

I never test for total acid number, unless I'm evaluating ATF or gear lube. If you use a conservative cutoff for TBN (1/3 of the baseline), you don't have to worry about the TAN in a used engine oil sample. For example, this 5w-40 had an initial TBN of 8.0, so the cutoff would be 2.7, ie about what you see here. Yes, if the oil has a lower starting TBN, you can effectively use a lower condemnation value for the TBN. The reasons for this are somewhat complicated, so I won't address them here.

TS
 

ruking

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TDI Power,

Fuel dilution from gasoline containing 10% ethanol is much worse for engine oil than fuel dilution from ULSD fuel. In fact, since the introduction of the 15 ppm fuel, TBN depletion is a non-issue in TDI's. Even the VW 507.00 oils easily last for 10k+ with the new ultra low sulfur fuel. (This would not be the case with the older 500 ppm sulfur fuel)

If you ran the Mobil 1/ESP, 5w-40 in a gas engine, you'd see much more degradation than in any TDI - even one like Bobs that's highly modified.

TS
Yes, VW 507.00 has a 30,000 miles requirement (European). there is really no "US" VW 507.00 version. HOWEVER...

I think a lot of folks:
1. don't believe
2. have a hard time wrapping their minds around the idea
3. changing the habits @ 10,000 miles OCI's.
4. Let alone going closer to up to ...30,000 miles.
5. enties like quickie lubes and other vendors have HUGE, HUGE, HUGE, stakes in 1,500 to 3,000 miles OCI's

Also folks do not really factor in that RUG to PUG (30 ppm sulfur, can be delivered up to 90 ppm sulfur with off line mitigation- aka FEES. ) is 2 to 18 times DIRTIER than ULSD !!?? (15 ppm sulfur, nominally delivered @ the pump @ 5-7 ppm)
 
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oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
Keep in mind most Europeans don't drive as much as we do.... 30,000 miles may not ever happen, as they also have a 2-yr time interval, so lots may just do it every 2 years, and after 7 or so years they get a new car. Amazing how little you need to drive when you actually have modern rail systems in place and your cities and countries are all so close together.
 

ruking

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Keep in mind most Europeans don't drive as much as we do.... 30,000 miles may not ever happen, as they also have a 2-yr time interval, so lots may just do it every 2 years, and after 7 or so years they get a new car. Amazing how little you need to drive when you actually have modern rail systems in place and your cities and countries are all so close together.
Without a doubt, what you are saying is true. US gov figures have it: the AVERAGE US drivers yearly mileage is between 12,000 to 15,000 miles. I read somewhere the AVERAGE European driver's yearly mileage is app 9,000 to 10,000 miles. So the US drivers AVERAGE is between 33.3% to 50% MORE !!!

SIDEBAR: Now I have only read this (Euro data) in one, max two places. I have read the US drivers data in multiple places.
 
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TooSlick

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Ruking,

The VW 507.00 oil will never last for 30,000
miles in a TDI, under any conditions. Now the Delvac 1 that you're using could very well last that long, but it has a significantly more robust additive chemistry.

TS
 

nortones2

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The OCI is at most 18,000 miles on the variable system. I think km and miles are being confused!

PS: "your cities and countries are all so close together. " In individual countries, perhaps, but continental Europe is larger than the USA. Political Europe is smaller, and many measures are of the EU rather than the full geographical extent of Europe. Also bear in mind that neither Norway nor Switzerland are in the EU.
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
nortones, many of us (including myself) drive over 100 miles a day to and from our jobs.

Most of my [TDI] customers are driving easily 30,000 miles per year, with some going over 50,000.

With the exception of the New England area and some spots in coastal California, the USA (and Canada) is VERY spread out, wide and open. In Missouri, 1/4 acre house lots are considered small, mine is over 1.5 acres. My state alone is nearly 20,000 square miles larger than your entire country (69,704 vs 50,860). Basically, imagine I drove from London to Bristol every day. :)

While I have multiple vehicles, I generally drive about 60,000 miles per year collectively. Add in my wife's ~20,000 per year, you can see why we like our diesels so much :D.
 
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ruking

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Ruking,

The VW 507.00 oil will never last for 30,000
miles in a TDI, under any conditions. Now the Delvac 1 that you're using could very well last that long, but it has a significantly more robust additive chemistry.

TS

http://www.lubadmin.com/Restitution.aspx?Marque=2&Famille=4&Type=2&Language=1&Site=4&Parametre1=2

Total INEO 504-507 5w30

PDS http://www.lubadmin.com/upload/produit/FichePDF/lang_1/5833.pdf

..."satisfies the plans of the most demanding manufacturers by allowing extra long draining intervals (30,000 to 50,000 kms)"...

SIDE BAR: 30,000-50,000 kms= 18,641 miles to 31,069 miles ( per TDICLUB.com unit conversion, pull down menu.)

Thanks for both your takes. As a side bar to the sidebar, the differences (KMS/miles) were always acknowledged. I ran the first OCI to 12,300 MILES. (local dealer provided Castrol LL3- gold bottles 2 more OCI's are included) Be that as it may, for me, the jury is still out for how long to run the Total INEO VW 507.00. Will I adopt the 30,000 miles OCI? TBD.

I did do the last change @ 30,700 miles on the 03 TDI Delvac One 5w40. It took a full gal (4 qts). (I drained less than a gal and the dipstick was on ADD) The next day, I added app .5 qt to make 4.5 qt aka 4.3 L.
 
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TooSlick

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The VW 507.00 oils use very high quality base stocks, but the chemical limits required by DPF equipped engines really reduce the additive treat levels. Based on the analyses I've seen to date, I'd say 15,000 mile oil change intervals are achievable in the CBEA engines under ideal conditions. If you were able to safely run an API/CJ-4 oil in the new TDI's, I'd think that 20k-25k intervals would be achievable.

TS
 
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