MKIV Daily Destroyer Build

[FlexYJeeper]

Ok, so with a test light or volt meter in hand, unplug the gp harness. Use the battery as ground. Stick the positive probe inside one of the gp connectors, doesn't matter which one. Have a helper turn the key to where the dash lights come on. You should briefly see 12v. If you have a volt meter, set to it to ohms and check the top of each gp to the block. Should see about 1 ohm. Should all be very close.

If you have 12v on any plug, then relay is good. Power all comes from the same place. And if one gp is bad, and you have 12v there, it would trigger a MIL. So I suspect you won't find 12v at the GP harness. Or I should say if there is a problem in the gp circuit, I would be surprised if you did find 12v there.

awesome, im waiting on a friend right now to help me out with it. so if there is no power the problem would be the gp relay?

 

[FlexYJeeper]

so no power to the harness i found out the relay is suppused to be under the whiper cover? i found a jetta TDI in the junk yard and tried to pull the glow plug relat and in the spot it was supposed to be under the whiper cover thing was just wire plugs. so i have no idea where the relay is supposed to be haha

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

Glow plug relay moved from under the dash (near the headlight switch) to in the rain tray near the ECU in '02. I didn't see what year your car is but if it's an '01 or earlier the relay is under the dash. OE relays will be labeled 180.

 

[bbarbulo]

Iirc it is the one in the #10 position (out of 13 positions). I will look at the wiring diagram when I get home, but 5 lines is what I'm thinking.... So 5 pin

 

[PB_NB]

Hi Flex,

I might be down in Anacortes area soon for a few days of R&R. I have a bunch of parts that I am not using like a fully functioning EGR system with flex pipe. Also, I have the pancake pipe to the intercooler, Intercooler, plug and play tuning box (lots of fun if you don't plan on getting a tune). I also have a bunch of left over things from my recent updates. I have a Vagcom cable as well if you need some help dialling things in. Also a GP relay if I recall.

I am not too sure of the actual dates for the trip yet, but it would be good to unload some of this stuff to a good home.

 

[FlexYJeeper]

Glow plug relay moved from under the dash (near the headlight switch) to in the rain tray near the ECU in '02. I didn't see what year your car is but if it's an '01 or earlier the relay is under the dash. OE relays will be labeled 180.

ahh. that makes sense. my car and the jetta were both 2000. that info helps so much, i'll go back tomorrow and pull that since the shops around here want $200 for the relay.

Iirc it is the one in the #10 position (out of 13 positions). I will look at the wiring diagram when I get home, but 5 lines is what I'm thinking.... So 5 pin

everything else ive seen has said 7 pins. hopefully i can just pull the one out of that jetta will fix the problem

Hi Flex,

I might be down in Anacortes area soon for a few days of R&R. I have a bunch of parts that I am not using like a fully functioning EGR system with flex pipe. Also, I have the pancake pipe to the intercooler, Intercooler, plug and play tuning box (lots of fun if you don't plan on getting a tune). I also have a bunch of left over things from my recent updates. I have a Vagcom cable as well if you need some help dialling things in. Also a GP relay if I recall.

I am not too sure of the actual dates for the trip yet, but it would be good to unload some of this stuff to a good home.

that would be awesome man, id also love to meet someone from the page. we should grab a few brews

 

[bbarbulo]

I'm thinking the 7 pin is for a late model with the 4 wire GP harness. Yours should have a 2 wire GP harness.

The wiring diagram is a little more involved... it doesn't necessarily mean the GP relay is bad.

I assume you know how relays work, yes? ground and trigger for the solenoid, then line and load, and lastly a not-load (or rather opposite of load - so if the relay is NO, then pin 87a would be NC).

Check the fuses on top of the battery. Two of them relate to the GP relay according to the wiring diagram, but the one is just a pass through to the ignition switch. I don't even know why it goes to the GP relay, in the wiring diagram I'm looking at it does nothing at all. The other one, F163 is the one that feeds the glow plugs.

If that checks out, that's your line for the relay

Now, the ground and trigger. The ground is conditional from the ECU. It is the lilac/white wire on the relay. The blue is the trigger which comes from the voltage supply relay. So don't condemn the GP relay unless you verify that the blue wire and the lilac/white wire give you 12V when you expect the GP to be turned on.

Then the red/white wire(s) are your relay output to the glow plugs. So if everything looks good, check for 12v there - if you have it there, check the GP harness again. If you don't have it at the GP, then the wiring is bad somewhere between the relay and the harness. If you don't have 12V at the red/white on the relay, AND everything else looks good, THEN you can replace the relay.

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

As an aside, we have that relay for $42.95. Not pushing, just a suggestion that you shop at other than local parts stores for TDI products.

 

[FlexYJeeper]

I'm thinking the 7 pin is for a late model with the 4 wire GP harness. Yours should have a 2 wire GP harness.

The wiring diagram is a little more involved... it doesn't necessarily mean the GP relay is bad.

I assume you know how relays work, yes? ground and trigger for the solenoid, then line and load, and lastly a not-load (or rather opposite of load - so if the relay is NO, then pin 87a would be NC).

Check the fuses on top of the battery. Two of them relate to the GP relay according to the wiring diagram, but the one is just a pass through to the ignition switch. I don't even know why it goes to the GP relay, in the wiring diagram I'm looking at it does nothing at all. The other one, F163 is the one that feeds the glow plugs.

If that checks out, that's your line for the relay

Now, the ground and trigger. The ground is conditional from the ECU. It is the lilac/white wire on the relay. The blue is the trigger which comes from the voltage supply relay. So don't condemn the GP relay unless you verify that the blue wire and the lilac/white wire give you 12V when you expect the GP to be turned on.

Then the red/white wire(s) are your relay output to the glow plugs. So if everything looks good, check for 12v there - if you have it there, check the GP harness again. If you don't have it at the GP, then the wiring is bad somewhere between the relay and the harness. If you don't have 12V at the red/white on the relay, AND everything else looks good, THEN you can replace the relay.

****, i literally understand none of that. i ran into a similar problem on my 6.9 IDI i i straight wired a momentary push button into the dash to manually control the glow plugs. im thinking thats what im going to do here. i hate jerry rigging things like that but i think in this case it will be the most reliable solution. i wont do anything permanent so one day i can go back to the oem set up.

As an aside, we have that relay for $42.95. Not pushing, just a suggestion that you shop at other than local parts stores for TDI products.

for sure would not have bought that from ANY of the parts stores haha. im all about supporting local parts stores but that mark up is outrageous.












side note, didnt get much done today. my buddy was looking for a toy and im really good at finding deals. i found him an 99 A4 2.8L AWD 5spd for well under $100 everything works except it has a bad water pump. i also know where a S4 parts car is with thats only missing a wiring harness i think we can get for dirt cheap. we took my truck to go get it. 2 hrs each way. oh yea thats my truck the main reason i bought my TDI haha

 

[bbarbulo]

LOL FYJeeper - that's a pretty sweet price for a Bosch relay. Not sure how much the dealer charges, but it's like an $80-something part IIRC. And if that shocks you... you just got your buddy into an AUDI :faint: lol

IBW - you're absolutely correct; local part stores usually don't carry TDI parts and if they do the price is ridiculous. I always shop around; and for us Canadians we have a great resource that I've been using for many years now - but even still, sometimes I order american since it's just cheaper if I'm not in a rush.

Truck looks mean!!! Don't love the headlights though, but that's just me. I have a thing against any non-OEM headlight, their optics are literally garbage. Basically like a best guess at where the light might shine. OEMs like Hella, Stanley, Guide, Visteon, etc spend millions of dollars on equipment to optimize light output. TYC, DEPO, and whoever else makes aftermarket headlights does NONE of that.

As for your GP issue, don't direct wire it. You will prob get a check engine light (you will anyways it's pretty much a 'thing' with VWs) - but you don't wanna be the CAUSE of the check engine light, do you? It isn't THAT complicated. If you don't really get the prev post, then maybe we'll play the 'swaptronics' troubleshooting game.

Check all your fuses, in the fuse box and on top of the battery. Remove the knee panel in the car, then remove the metal behind it. Now you see your relay panel. Find the relay labelled 180. Put your finger on it, turn the key. Do the same for the relay labelled 109. Did you feel it click? If not, swap in a known good relay (ie. pay IBW $43). If it STILL doesn't work, then we can look for broken wiring or a bad ECU.

 

[FlexYJeeper]

LOL FYJeeper - that's a pretty sweet price for a Bosch relay. Not sure how much the dealer charges, but it's like an $80-something part IIRC. And if that shocks you... you just got your buddy into an AUDI :faint: lol

IBW - you're absolutely correct; local part stores usually don't carry TDI parts and if they do the price is ridiculous. I always shop around; and for us Canadians we have a great resource that I've been using for many years now - but even still, sometimes I order american since it's just cheaper if I'm not in a rush.

Truck looks mean!!! Don't love the headlights though, but that's just me. I have a thing against any non-OEM headlight, their optics are literally garbage. Basically like a best guess at where the light might shine. OEMs like Hella, Stanley, Guide, Visteon, etc spend millions of dollars on equipment to optimize light output. TYC, DEPO, and whoever else makes aftermarket headlights does NONE of that.

As for your GP issue, don't direct wire it. You will prob get a check engine light (you will anyways it's pretty much a 'thing' with VWs) - but you don't wanna be the CAUSE of the check engine light, do you? It isn't THAT complicated. If you don't really get the prev post, then maybe we'll play the 'swaptronics' troubleshooting game.

Check all your fuses, in the fuse box and on top of the battery. Remove the knee panel in the car, then remove the metal behind it. Now you see your relay panel. Find the relay labelled 180. Put your finger on it, turn the key. Do the same for the relay labelled 109. Did you feel it click? If not, swap in a known good relay (ie. pay IBW $43). If it STILL doesn't work, then we can look for broken wiring or a bad ECU.

i didnt see a fuse block on top of the battery. putting a finger on top of the relays is much more of my level of understanding electronics haha. i need to get on that, the past 2 days ive been starting it by clipping one side of my jumper cables to the harness and holding the other side on the battery for a few seconds

fun fact, im going to go look at a 2dr 5spd MKIV GTI tomorrow

 

[PB_NB]

With temps rising, the glow plugs will not cycle very long, usually just a second or so. The ECU is looking at the coolant temp to determine whether or not to turn on the glow plugs. If you want to push the glow plugs to max, just unplug the CTS (coolant temp sensor) and the ECU will think it is very cold (-40F if I recall). Then you will have lots of glow. You will also get a CEL if you do this but at least you can get the glow plugs to help start the car.
Once the car is started, plug the CTS back in so the car will run normally as it warms up.

I noticed this yesterday when my car started after sitting for about 10 days. The glow plugs didn't come on because our outside temp was around 8C.

Sending the full battery current into your GP harness will probably result in some melting wires or relays.

There are several conditions surrounding cold starting issues that have been discussed here. How does the car start when it is warm/hot?

I ask because early MK4 TDI's around 1999/2000 had hot start issues that have been diagnosed and the ECU fuel map is to blame. What year is your car? I didn't notice the year in your posts.

 

[pudman2003]

You need to look at your coolant temp sensor.

 

[FlexYJeeper]

With temps rising, the glow plugs will not cycle very long, usually just a second or so. The ECU is looking at the coolant temp to determine whether or not to turn on the glow plugs. If you want to push the glow plugs to max, just unplug the CTS (coolant temp sensor) and the ECU will think it is very cold (-40F if I recall). Then you will have lots of glow. You will also get a CEL if you do this but at least you can get the glow plugs to help start the car.
Once the car is started, plug the CTS back in so the car will run normally as it warms up.

I noticed this yesterday when my car started after sitting for about 10 days. The glow plugs didn't come on because our outside temp was around 8C.

Sending the full battery current into your GP harness will probably result in some melting wires or relays.

There are several conditions surrounding cold starting issues that have been discussed here. How does the car start when it is warm/hot?

I ask because early MK4 TDI's around 1999/2000 had hot start issues that have been diagnosed and the ECU fuel map is to blame. What year is your car? I didn't notice the year in your posts.

I'll look into this, when I checked the harness for power when my buddy turned the key there was no voltage, not even for a moment. When its hot the car starts great. After its been parked for 2-4 hours it has to turn over for awhile then it starts. Of I leave it over night it's not going to start unless I hook it up to my truck and spin the starter for a long while. When I jump the harness straight to the battery it fires right up

 

[bbarbulo]

i didnt see a fuse block on top of the battery. putting a finger on top of the relays is much more of my level of understanding electronics haha. i need to get on that, the past 2 days ive been starting it by clipping one side of my jumper cables to the harness and holding the other side on the battery for a few seconds

fun fact, im going to go look at a 2dr 5spd MKIV GTI tomorrow

pics of your battery?

should be a bridge-like thing over the battery under the cover (if yours is still intact and original). 6 or so wires come off the block and run down the back side of the battery. those are the wires that connect to the bottom of the relay block inside the car.

how was the GTI? you buy it?

 

[FlexYJeeper]

pics of your battery?

should be a bridge-like thing over the battery under the cover (if yours is still intact and original). 6 or so wires come off the block and run down the back side of the battery. those are the wires that connect to the bottom of the relay block inside the car.

how was the GTI? you buy it?

there's like a positive bus bar but not any fuses. lots of red wires coming out of it. ill double check tomorrow and take pics

i check out the GTI in 10 hours.it 0015 here now and i just got off watch. im not expecting much. apparently this dealership has had it for 3 months with no interest. current price is $1500. the interior is apparently pretty torn and from the pictures the outside wasnt much better. its said to run and drive well. dealership did the timing belt and water pump too. i do a lot of flipping cars, thats how i bought my TDI. if i can get it for about $800 i'll probably get it but i'll look at it tomorrow

 

[FlexYJeeper]

bbarbulo you were right. there were 3 fuses i somehow missed ontop of the battery. they were all good. i also checked the relays when turning the key. they both clicked so im at a loss right now.

i looked at the GTI, it was trashed inside and out. the salesman i talked to on the phone lied. they were actually asking 2500 and would not come down AT ALL. i didnt even ask to drive it. i left. they are on crack. on a side note i've been habing wet dreams off a race car build from a E36 4dr with a LS1. i found a E36 im looking at tomorrow

 

[bbarbulo]

haha i don't know how prices are in your area, but $2500 is ridiculous. gassers around here can be had (with issues) for scrap value - roughly $200 usually. I don't come across those often, cuz frankly I never look for VWs. But I know some guys that regularly get MK4s for $150-200.

I don't flip cars though, I buy them cuz I want them. Then eventually when there is just too many, I might sell one or two. Sometimes I make a couple bucks, sometimes I lose. But I enjoy owning cars. Currently all 10 of them.


Now, on to troubleshooting...

Do you have a test light? Like one of those really sharp screwdriver looking things with an alligator clip wired to it?

Unplug relay 180. Key off/out of the ignition, one of the pins will have constant 12V. If it doesn't this is your problem. The relay is fed directly from the battery to the bottom of the relay block under the dash. Then from that stud, there will be traces leading to pin 30 of the relay. If you can identify pin 30 by the drawing on the side of the relay, great... check that pin 30 has constant 12V. If it does, continue - if not, then this is your problem.

Unplug the coolant temp sensor to get maximum glow time and disconnect the GP harness (bus bar on the glow plugs). Work your way backwards, probing the wiring (poke the test light through the insulation) about every 12 inches from the glow plugs toward the relay box under the dash. If the GP harness has been replaced, which it most certainly has several times, perhaps the splice wasn't done very well. Usually the splice is about 8 inches back from the start of the GP bus bar. So check there for voltage, then proceed backward toward the relay box under the dash.

 

[FlexYJeeper]

Dammit I hate electrical stuff. Is there any other solution? Like a kit that will replace the whole lot?

I hate how everything is run together in the car. The pass side turn signal is run in the same loom as the windshield wiper fluid wiring for Christ's sake.

 

[bbarbulo]

you better get real comfortable with wiring if you plan to do a E36 with an LS1 swap

as a 'shadetree mechanic' if you will, I enjoy doing it all. body work, fabrication, suspension, internal engine work, clutch replacement, auto tranny rebuilding, rebuilding axles, detailing, rim refinishing, tint, upholstery & headliner work, and yes... even wiring LOL

heck, I'll even do points, carbs... whatever it takes.

one thing I don't do a lot of is exhaust work. I have done it... I still do it... just don't LOVE it.

you have to know what you're replacing and why. otherwise, you're flying blind and throwing money at it to see what sticks. there are countless electrical issues in these cars. my dad's car for example lost remote keyless entry programming. why, I haven't figured out yet. But from airbags, rear wiper issues, door switches, cruise control stalks, etc... you could blow your wallet if you take this "replace everything" approach. Get the tools, get the wiring diagrams, learn it. No way around wiring these days.

 

[bbarbulo]

wait till you fall into a serial communication system car. I haven't dealt with one yet, everything I've owned still has 'field' wiring where each wire goes from the ECU or a relay to a sensor or load. But increasingly, cars are using one wire that goes to a number of components basically. Like a profibus or aSi in industry/controls.

 

[FlexYJeeper]

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?p=5240912#post5240912

 

[FlexYJeeper]

update time

so the other night i was laying in bed and i had a flashback to when i was like 6-7 years old. i was with my dad and we were looking at lawn mowers and i remember him complaining because all of them were OHV motors and lawnmowers dont need to be that complicated. ive worked with my fair share of OHV motors and they've never done me wrong. but i swear, the day they start putting interference motors on lawn mowers im buying a goat to cut my grass.

i want to thank all of you who helped out giving me possible ideas on what the problem could be. and a shout out to pudman2003 for driving up 2 hours to give me a hand

got the golf home Wednesday and had work that night so couldnt mess with it. i had been talking to pudman2003 on the phone and he was really helpful, Thursday when i was finally off work i called him to let him know i was finally getting to tear into it he said he was going to catch the 11am ferry to the island and help me with it, Awesome! someone who knows these motors! before he got here i went to check the timing to see if it had jumped time. i went to turn the crank i the bolt on the crank pulley tightened up. wonderful. it wasn't even tight....

about that time i had to leave to pick up pudman to get him on base, when he got here we checked the timing and it was a little off but not really enough to have jumped a tooth. we pulled the valve cover to find that whoever rebuilt it put the cam looked like a dog had chewed on it. should have never gone back in looking that way. however ugly it was it still did not cause the problem. we got the motor broken free and put it back together. once it fired off there was clanking. it was bad.


my guess is it dropped a valve. i dont know i havent taken the head off. after seeing the cam and a few other bits that the guy who rebuilt it reused i dont really want anything to do with this motor right now. the pistons, cylinder bore, and connecting rods might be fine, the engine might just that valve replaced on the head but i dont think i can trust this motor.

Friday night i made a 2 hr drive across the boarder to buy a new motor for $650USD its from a 2000 jetta 5spd with 190k the guy i bought it from had it for 3 years before it got rear ended he bought it back to fix it but then found out how hard of a process it was going to be to get it legal and decided to part it out. this motor has never been rebuilt and seems to have been maintained well. hopefully it works out well for me. if this motor is trashed i honestly dont know what i'll do. for now the golf it going to be parked as ive been spending too much money and am almost uncomfortable with my current finances so im going to park it and put some money away until i can afford to do the motor swap correctly

heres the new motor next to the car as it sits, the golf earned the nickname "Turdbo Diesel" it came with pretty much everything, alternator injector pump, AC condenser, no fly wheel though, i suspect the guy who bought the trans was doing a 5 speed swap.



if you havent give me a follow on Instagram @flexyjeeper

not much to do while im saving money but i'll be doing a few small tinker things for the time being.

 

[bbarbulo]

way to turn it around!! glad you're fixing this; hopefully this will treat you right and give you many miles of service.

the swap itself should be pretty straight forward. throw in a timing belt kit, put in a new thermostat, check the serp tensioner, alternator pulley, a/c clutch and pop it in. Do the front and rear seals while you're at it. They do leak. Delete the EGR mess and clean the intake. Remove the intake when you clean it. People that do it on the car don't realize SOME valve somewhere is open. The stuff that's falling inside the engine when you do it on the car is sitting pretty on that valve. As soon as you crank the engine, valve shuts and deposits that filth into the valve seat and it will never seal right again until you lap the valve.

There is loads of cleaning you can do while you save money, make it look purrdy

 

[FlexYJeeper]

haha thanks, i'll be damned if i let the filthy Germans win. im hoping to be able to order the rest of the parts i need beginning of april. eventually i want to go lower so 15mm motor spacers or on the list since i already needed to replace the motor mount bolts already, seals, turbo mount kit, going to try and find all the plastics that go around the motor as im missing them, etc. the timing belt only has 30k on it and its an OEM replacement so im not going to worry about that too much just yet

 

[bbarbulo]

Those plastics can be had from rockauto under the body section. The stock ones are nice looking injections, obv a nice resin and good tooling. Sadly, wrong for this application. I worked in plastic injection molding so I know a bit about what kind of plastic goes where, and they missed it by a mile. So I wouldn't think twice about an aftermarket side shield on the engine and inside the wheel wells. Their resin is probably going to be a nice 7700 or a recycled 7000repro, which is a very flexible abs more meant for impact resistance. What vw was using is a higher grade dirty (fiber reinforced) resin that is meant as a structural component like the rad cradle that has finish requirements like a visible external part. But to use this type of resin for a thin under-car splash shield is absurd. Too hard and brittle.

In short, get cheap aftermarket ones anywhere you can.

 

[FlexYJeeper]

small update on the Turdbo Diesel


money has been the factor holding me back at this point. originally i was hoping to have it back on the road mid April. fortunately i have been able to pay off my debt from buying the motor and saving money for the swap much faster then i originally expected. i'll be ordering parts this weekend. i still want Pudman to help with the swap so i'll probably call him tomorrow when i get off work or Sunday so we can figure out a day.

ive been keeping the motor at the shop and needed to put it in the back of the golf for dry storage and when i make the 2hr drive to Pudman's place. getting my golf to the shop was another adventure. had to tow it across base with a rope behind my truck. this involves using the factory tow hook. awesome! right? VW totally hooked us up with one. WRONG!



i dont claim to be a smart person but i can usually figure things out. but who designs a car and thinks reversing the tow hook is a good idea??


got the golf to the shop and the new motor loaded up. im pretty surprised how much room is actually in the back of this thing


lost a little bit of clearance



i'll keep posted when there is a plan.

side note, Photo Bucket used to be great like 5-6 years ago but now there's too many advertisements and the site rarely even works the way its suppose to. what a good image hosting site?

 

[bbarbulo]

yeah imageshack and photo bucket both went to **** and lost all my photos. the whole point of a 'cloud' is so you don't lose your photos when your hard drive crashes. so much for that.

now I use flickr. it has the most sustainable business model so I suspect they will be around a long time.

glad to see your financials are working out and the car will come together. correct, the Golf is epic good for hauling stuff.


on another note, what is that beautiful shop?? do you have access to it as needed?

 

[FlexYJeeper]

yeah imageshack and photo bucket both went to **** and lost all my photos. the whole point of a 'cloud' is so you don't lose your photos when your hard drive crashes. so much for that.

now I use flickr. it has the most sustainable business model so I suspect they will be around a long time.

glad to see your financials are working out and the car will come together. correct, the Golf is epic good for hauling stuff.


on another note, what is that beautiful shop?? do you have access to it as needed?

i used to use flickr back when i could use my google log in, now they want me to get an yahoo account which i dont like.

the shop is on base and is available to to veterans, active duty, etc etc. its open Friday 12pm-8pm, then Saturday and Sunday 10am to 6pm. which sucks because i work 5 days on 4 days off and rarely does my schedule line up to use it. for a flat stall its $4hr $28/day and all the lifts are drive on lifts. the on in San Diego was incredible had tons of 2 pole lifts, drive on lifts and was much bigger. you could even rent stalls weekly/monthly it was open everyday 8-8 except Sunday. i miss San Diego. i hate Washington haha

 

[bbarbulo]

we used to have a place like that in windsor, it was privately owned and open to anyone. sadly it went under. but had lifts, air, welders, benders, even paint booths!!! it was incredible! i really wish it was still around since i would likely be getting more into painting - i think it's an epic skill to have.

you're lucky to have access to a place to work, even if it costs a bit.