MK7 Golf Build

[xjay1337]

Interesting ;-)

Maybe you can be the test goat for the Mk7 engine like I have been for the Mk6 lol

 

[adjat84th]

Got three runs in today on a Dynapack. 82° w/ 42% humidity. HP seems a touch low, but this looks to be a good baseline. All runs were pretty consistent though the green one was operator error.

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[KERMA]

are those the bone stock runs for comparison purposes? Or tuned

 

[Owain@malonetuning]

I've been putting down around 132-138HP/230-240lb-ft stock with these cars on the dynapack, and around 172-178/285-302 tuned.

That includes competitor tunes, and our dyno is accurate.

 

[KERMA]

My apologies in advance to the OP, not meaning to take away from this cool build thread, but

I've been putting down around 132-138HP/230-240lb-ft stock with these cars on the dynapack, and around 172-178/285-302 tuned.

That includes competitor tunes, and our dyno is accurate.

Of course, everyone's dyno is accurate. that's what everyone says

But that was not my question.

But since you brought it up, here's what your boss has to say about the subject anyways, which is kind if amazing he said anything at all becuase he seldom posts: Excepts from http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?p=4997691#post4997691 and emphasis is mine

Exactly. A customer with a 90hp ALH TDI and VNT-20 turbo went on a Dyno Dynamics that reported 260whp (3 clean pulls on it) and then a Mustang Dyno 20 minutes away that reported 183whp (3 clean pulls).

None of the dynos are accurate and most people don't realize this. It's pointless to argue which dyno is more accurate - Mustang, Dyno Dynamics, Dynojet, Dynapack, Superflow, etc. These are all $50k-140k machines and not considered top of the line. Even if you use a top of the line dyno, you still run into issues like load, gearing, tires, suspension, wheel alignment, dyno fan, ambient temperature, etc. all of which affect output.

For example with a Stage 2 CR140, a dyno operater can skew results from 155whp to 185whp by simply changing the software configuration.

and

A few more things (sorry for being long-winded, but I'm pretty passionate about dynos ):

1. This is a good image that demonstrates the difference between accurate and precise:

None of the dynos are accurate, deal with it.

A precise/repeatable dyno is what you want. If you bring a car back to the same dyno 1 year later, you don't want to worry about numbers being skewed too much. Over time, a change in wheel alignment will actually change horsepower and torque readings. Hub dynos like Dynapack take tires, alignment, and suspension out of the equation and it has a reputation for being precise. It's one reason why I bought that type of dyno.

2. The same car should go on the same dyno to measure gains. Getting stock runs in before tuning is critically important. Doing at least 3 pulls on the dyno to ensure consistency is also critically important. If the car hops onto a different dyno or if you compare against another car with different dynos, then it's worthless.

3. You can't compare gains between two cars by horsepower and torque differences either, especially between 2 different dynos. Gains are more accurately measured with %. Here's a real-world CR140 Stage 2 dyno in Colorado at over 4,500 feet:

126whp stock -> 154whp tuned = 28whp gain (UNCORRECTED)
150whp stock -> 183.33whp tuned = 33.33whp gain (SAE CORRECTED)

That's just 1 dyno chart of the same car and same dyno run. The only change here is the correction. However, see this:

126whp stock -> 154whp tuned = 22% gain (UNCORRECTED)
150whp stock -> 183.33whp tuned = 22% gain (SAE CORRECTED)

The 22% gain from stock to tuned exactly the same.

So if you want to compare your car's gainst against another car on a different dyno, then using % is probably a little more accurate in some cases. Not really because there still are more variables. Also no one likes to publish their gains using % figures because that's just boring. It's cooler to say "200whp," "300whp," etc.

tl;dr Stick with one dyno to see your stock>tuned gains, preferably with high load and no correction, and don't compare against different dynos. If you want to compare two similar cars on the same dyno back-to-back in the same day (same ambient temps. etc.), just to see which car makes more power, then that usually works too.

 

[Owain@malonetuning]

Dynapacks are quite a lot different from dynojets, they are calibrated a certain way and considerably more accurate, we see the same values here that rawtek sees on theirs. Their values can typically be compared on different dynos, but of course all development/tune adjustments should be done on the same unit. You see a 0% correction factor there, and calibration adjustments require a dynapack representative to remote log in. I can put a car on the dyno 6 months later and know what it's going to make in advance, assuming parameters are the same. APR, integrated engineering, unitronic, revo, cobb etc all use these dynos for a lot of their development, and so do we. It's the standard for quality tuners.

I've run a lot of cars on it, especially stock ones, and they're right at advertised power in most cases. I posted my findings to compare to what he's seeing. The values I'm quoting are with a stock exhaust, so they should be a bit higher horsepower wise with deletes.

We both know you know this car has a stage 2 with deletes based off your slander here http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=5270685&postcount=38 where you posted 45 minutes prior about it.

So please, don't waste my time with this. Mark doesn't post here as he's very busy as is, as are the rest of us. I'll delete my post as soon as your remove yours, would appreciate if this stayed on topic.



Adjat, I'd also like to clarify something on the EGTs. EGT limiters are set from factory at 845C, and the maximum the ECU will allow you to raise them is 930. They are not bypassed and the output readings are not falsified on our tunes. The only case where the EGT sensor 1 reads incorrect is in an EA189 stage 3.5 tune, which requires a CR170 turbo with deletes, and the primary EGT sensor is relocated to the secondary position, then it reads post rather than pre readings. The primary probe is then to be used for an external EGT gauge, which is highly recommended.

The EA288 motor has a much better cooling system than the EA189. With the improvements in exhaust flow and decrease in back pressure the motor will run more efficiently, so no wonder you're seeing lower temps. We're fairly conservative on that tune but are on line with the competition. Feel free to email me with any questions.

 

[Mr_robs]

Awesome build thread! Another late 2015 adopter here.

Had lots of VW's in my life, first TDI. Very excited to see what you do here as i am battling the mod bug every day haha.

Also getting used to the tuner pissing contest that seems to pop up in every single thread lol.

 

[turbobrick240]

Got three runs in today on a Dynapack. 82° w/ 42% humidity. HP seems a touch low, but this looks to be a good baseline. All runs were pretty consistent.

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Nice. I'm about to get dyno' d at a local diesel shop with a mustang dyno. They call the mustang dynos "the heartbreaker", so I don't expect bragging rights. Should be a good baseline though.

 

[adjat84th]

I appreciate the feedback and don't mind tuners having input where needed as long as it stays cordial. Both Charlie and Owain regularly post helpful info on the forums and that's very much appreciated.
Owain, thanks for commenting on the EGT differences from EA189 to EA288, and specifying what can be done in those regards. I'm aware of dyno differences and am not deterred by the results being different than what is advertised. Just happy to have a starting point for when the new turbo gets here.

Turbobrick, sure will be interested in your results on a mustang dyno. I was happy to have found a Dynapack close by!

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[goes2fast]

I'm not sure, but that would be good if it is. Haven't seen a Mk7 head.
I'd love to put an LSD but our exchange rate is awful and has pushed the price up of them.
Plus I get major wheelhop in 2nd and 3rd, and I worry with a diff it will make it worse.

Water injection would be good in your case to keep EGT down, doesn't need mapping in as such , decent map will have EGT protection written in

That pic makes me angry/sad that VOA doesn't see fit to bring the Scirocco here. That is a beautiful car!

 

[adjat84th]

Yes, I would get DMF shudder under 2k RPM when in 5th-6th after the tune. However, installing the Fluidampr (when I was still on stock DMF) in my scenario eliminated that shudder, though I doubt it would keep it gone once power started climbing more.

I do not have stock exhaust EGT numbers, and the one run I've logged more recently was not long enough to produce anything above 400C (was logging the wrong sensor!). I also failed to bring my laptop with me to the dyno, as I was going to grab a couple logs there. I would love for auto-polar to hurry up with their MQB update so the polar fis+ I purchased in September could be used. I would much prefer that than my laptop just for normal day to day driving.

 

[KERMA]

400c is 750F which is a typical highway cruising temperature. Maybe 40-45% throttle and just loafing along at 2300 rpm or so and 80 mph in 6th gear.

A full throttle pull would be most useful, starting from a dead stop then shift at 4200+ rpm each time thru 4th gear if it's safe to go that fast. If you can do it under load on the dyno or uphill would be ideal. I was able to get a tick under 800C in our bone stock GSW on the road under what I would consider abusive conditions on a hot summer day.

Just as a point of reference, lately when I tune those EA288 we have zero egt limiters or shudder, even at 220hp to the wheels. No other mods, just a tune.

 

[named tintin]

400C is pretty low in effect, probably the wrong sensor.

Linéarisation is set to 1000°C, it need to be unlocked for VCDS to show more than 930°C, once done I've seen some tune to hit 1000°C before to regulate, which is not good.

If it's a delete tune, it should be more in the 190hp range and not falling off at 3500rpm, of course the whole injection strategy need to be reworked to keep EGT in range.

There is some way to avoid shudder in 4, 5, 6th gear while keeping full torque for 1, 2 & 3.

If you need more info, PM me, I'll explain you some things.

 

[adjat84th]

Flywheel shudder is no problem here as it's been cured with the install of a single mass unit, and it's fantastic! Feels more lively on tip-in.
And, even with an upgraded downpipe, this small stock turbo still hits the limiter about 4500rpm on a hot day..it cannot move the air fast enough. You can feel the torque being limited and then come back after temps go down briefly.

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[turbobrick240]

I wonder if a fmic would help lower egt' s. Do you have any turbos in mind for an upgrade? I've been hearing great things about the gtd1752.

 

[adjat84th]

I wonder if a fmic would help lower egt' s. Do you have any turbos in mind for an upgrade? I've been hearing great things about the gtd1752.

The stock air/water intercooler works fantastic. Did a few logs yesterday at 88° temps and the max post charge air cooler temps were 122°. The thought of water/meth injection here would be pretty nice. I even have a 4gal tank, pump, lines, and wiring already installed and not being used . Would be slick to use the DEF components with just a proper injector mounted. But, I think it might be best to wait and see what the final outcome is with the new turbo!

The turbo was going to be a GTD2060, but has now shifted to 1752vrk.

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[turbobrick240]

The stock air/water intercooler works fantastic. Did a few logs yesterday at 88° temps and the max post charge air cooler temps were 122°. The thought of water/meth injection here would be pretty nice. I even have a 4gal tank, pump, lines, and wiring already installed and not being used ?. Would be slick to use the DEF components with just a proper injector mounted. But, I think it might be best to wait and see what the final outcome is with the new turbo!

The turbo is going to be a GTD2060 (likely hybrid), Ryan hasn't supplied me with any specifics and I'll respect that since the kit still needs to be test fit. You're right though, I've heard some good numbers out of those 1752s as well.

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Nice. The a2w intercooler certainly looks like it would be pretty effective based on its size. I think water/meth inj. would be very cool (in a couple of ways)too. Can't think of a better use for the existing tank and wiring.
I'm going to have to look up the gtd2060. Based on what I've heard of the gtd1752, I bet it's a beast.

 

[[486]]

400C is pretty low in effect, probably the wrong sensor.

my alh is at 600F or so at 80 mph, flat ground, preturbo

 

[Larry@FixMyVW]

I believe my car was pulling power during my last trackday. I was not logging EGT, but the MFD showed oil temp of 248F. During my commute home I have logged pre-turbo EGT and seen as high as 1450F at 215F oil temp. I have the emissions software update, other than a Neuspeed intake the engine/software is stock. I'm thinking my only option is to wait for the hardware update in 2018, take VWs money, tune and delete.

 

[adjat84th]

I've never seen anything above 230F, but I've not yet tracked it either! When it pulls power for EGT protection, it's not a very hard cut but certainly noticeable.

 

[Mr_robs]

Interesting, ive seen 250F oil temps indicated by the MFD in 98f doing about 75 up hill.

Have any sound clips to share with the rawtek setup on?

 

[adjat84th]

Interesting, ive seen 250F oil temps indicated by the MFD in 98f doing about 75 up hill.

Have any sound clips to share with the rawtek setup on?

It's a Buzzken downpipe with one resonator though probably not a big difference. I have been contemplating a second resonator, but wanted to wait till the new turbo was on before making the final decision. I'll see about making a clip soon.

Have about 8k miles on the clutch and still loving it!

 

[adjat84th]

GTD1752vrk is close to being installed. Waiting on oil feed/return lines being done up that are quite different from previous gen common rails. The feed line sits directly below the rear balance shaft (back in action on the EA288 in 2.0 form) and has to have a 90* bend on the banjo in order to come away from the block and around the shaft. The return fitting is extra special in that it sits at the top of the block, within millimeters of the cylinder head and exhaust manifold. The return line has to be metal and snake through cylinder 3-4 runners.

The stock TIP was used with a silicone reducer on the end to fit over the compressor inlet.

The charge pipe elbow is a fairly simple 90* bend, 2" silicone elbow to run from the compressor outlet to the stock charge pipe.

The only other hurdles left outside of awaiting the new oil lines are a couple of coolant pipes that need modifying in order to clear the new downpipe, and the other to clear the TIP and compressor outlet. The rear coolant hard pipe ran along, and was bolted at the middle to the DPF, but is now slightly in the way of the new downpipe. The plan is to cut this pipe, and run a short length of coolant hose (with a preformed 90* bend on one end) between the cuts in a different direction than stock. The goal is to have it run as far away from the downpipe as possible.

The other coolant pipe is the overflow from the heater core that runs overtop of the stock turbo, runs around the cylinder head, and then meets with the radiator overflow at a "T" then to the coolant bottle. This hard pipe in stock location runs directly in front of the turbo intake, so a cut to the pipe is necessary. I have a similar preformed coolant hose for this pipe as well, but in smaller size. The goal with this one is to run the hose either under the compressor outlet, or in between the outlet and the TIP where it will meet back with the stock hard line with the 90* bend in the hose. I am trying to retain the bolting locations on both of these hardlines to keep them from moving around, and to keep things as close as possible to their stock locations

I will have plenty of pics to come soon, and hoping to be up and running by next weekend pending oil return line fabrication!

 

[Macradiators.com]

Sounds pretty complicated compared to normal plug and play setups (gtb2260vk and vklr options). Curious how it turns in the end.

 

[adjat84th]

Sounds pretty complicated compared to normal plug and play setups (gtb2260vk and vklr options). Curious how it turns in the end.

It's a bit different because of the new platform and it's slight differences. There are a couple of these that I know of running a GTB2260, and I'm sure they ran into some of the same things.

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[adjat84th]

Just about ready to button this thing up. Only concern is how tightly the oil feed line is bending in order to be installed. It's also very close to the manifold (3/8" clearance you can see in the first picture), so I'm thinking this line needs the fitting on the turbo rotated 90° clockwise to allow it to relax which should also get it away from the manifold. Anyone know how tight these lines can bend before there becomes a restriction from a possible kink? It feels tighter than the pictures look, ha!

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[turbobrick240]

I don't think that bend radius is problematic. You could always wrap the line in some reflective insulation if you're worried about heat coming off the turbo.

 

[adjat84th]

Car is running! Just have to take it to my exhaust guy to have him put the hangers for the downpipe back on in the proper place. Keep in mind this kit is meant for the earlier CRs, so I knew there were likely to be a few issues.

Only other concern is the TIP which is extremely close to being a perfect fit. It just rests very slightly on the brake fluid reservoir which caused a vibration to be felt in the brake pedal. It's currently rigged so that it is not resting on it, but need to look for a long term solution so that the other airbox pieces all fit back in their stock location.

Will do some data logging as soon as the downpipe hangers are secure, and get some tweaks made to the tune!

 

[turbobrick240]

Nice! Can't wait to see what the gtd1752 is capable of. From what I've heard, it sounds like a pretty ideal upgrade for a daily driver.

 

[adjat84th]

Nice! Can't wait to see what the gtd1752 is capable of. From what I've heard, it sounds like a pretty ideal upgrade for a daily driver.

With just the Stage 2 eco tune in place, it feels pretty robust! Max EGT was 815C at ~4800rpm. Getting limp mode for "stuck actuator" but only when I take it to 5k rpm...all other driving feels fantastic. Maybe a touch more laggy under 1500rpm than the smaller stock turbo which isn't bad at all, there's plenty of power from 1600rpm and up though. This will obviously all change once the tune is dialed in.

For sake of comparison, a 328d with DPF delete and tune saw 226hp@3,700rpm/380tq@2,000rpm. Obviously that will translate different to the VW, but we'll find out soon enough.