Mk6 Jetta: Hard Start / No Start - Intercooler icing discussion in here!

[VeeDubTDI]

Adding a poll option at this stage in the game will not produce useful results.

 

[TDIadvocate]

ALuminum drain adapter for intercooler hose ?

It has been a long time since I have posted to this site. But I recall seeing that someone had engineered a aluminum adapter that could be operated remotely via a cable to drain condensation from intercooler hose. Is this available for purchase ?

I have a 2012 Jetta TDI, I have experienced condensation in intercooler causing rough operation when starting engine. No help from local Libertyville dealer, no trouble codes set. TDI now has 47,000 miles, still gets great fuel mileage, 35 in the city, 50+ highway.

FYI my exhaust flapper valve was just replace under new emission warranty, valve froze giving trouble codes.

 

[Siva283]

That kit sounds like a good idea. Where do you see it. I would rather pay someone else that has come up with a proper solution like that then VW who does not seem to stand behind thier product anymore. I do remembered when VW cared about thier customers. They keep producing cars with a known issue. They arent even installing this fix in cars currently coming off the line. I would imagine because of cost. 2 more easy fixes VW could do is switch to an air to water IC like the passat or move the intercooler to the engine side of the radiator instead of in the very front where it is first to get hit by the freezing air. If its to the engine side heat from the radiator should be enough to keep it above freezing. I cant imagine that the temp increase by putting the IC behind the Rad would make much of a difference in power/milage atleast not a noticable one anyway

 

[Little Joe]

After reading this thread a few things come to mind.
If you are experiencing freezing and hard start because of Ice , it has built up to block off air flow.
If you have ingested water (because temp warmed up or parked in warm area) leaving it outside in cold is only going to prolong the point at which it eventually melts and ingest water UNLESS the IC air temp is high enough to carry the water out of the IC into engine in a saturated air state.
People who have not experienced problem in colder areas may just not be building up enough water and or ice before temp are such that IAT is high enough to turn the water into saturated air and reduce the actual liquid level per se.
The manual drain is a very good idea.

I will be blocking air flow to IC when temps are about 35F and lower so that IC temp do not get cold enough to condense moisture out of Intake air.
As long as EGT are monitored and do not rise too high there is no problem doing this.
Keep in mind the main reson for having IC is so that more power can be made out of smaller engine...... cooler intake air temp allow addition of more fuel to make more power. As long as EGT is not too high IC is not needed .

Getting the egr out of the intake would solve the majority of the issues (delete) however it would not be emission legal.

This problem is very similiar to the issues happening with sudden powerloss in Fords turbo charged engines in the F150.

 

[Racewalker]

Looks like you can add me to the list. Got called into work this morning. -16C drove 50 km, have a winter front on the car. Parked in the heated underground parking at work. Started the car 3 hours later, ran very rough for a couple of seconds then stalled. Unable to turn over with starter after. Towed to the local dealer. Unable to get it in for 2 days. Waiting for the results, 50400KM on the car.

 

[SkeeterMark]

The IC update does not cure the issue

I'm sorry to report, contrary to my previous posts about the IC update working perfectly, that it does not.

Yesterday: Drove home 1 hour from work in 24* F weather, somewhat moist out with lots of road spray.

Parked in garage overnight. Garage temperature was about 45*F this morning. It's warm as it is under part of the house.

Went to leave for work this morning and the engine turned over twice and stopped. Engine was hydro-locked. Turned key again and it turned a fraction and stopped. Yep.....hydro-locked. Went out to start my truck as alternate transportation for the day and cleaned off the 14 inches of snow off it. Went inside for 5 minutes to let truck warm up.

I tried the Jetta once more and she turned over and fired. Ran like total sh*t for a couple minutes. I probably shouldn't have done this, but I figured "what the hell". If it's junk it's junk and they'll just have to fix it. So ya, the poll should have another one on the second question.

It cleared out and seemed to run fine, so I drove to work with no further issues. No CEL or others.

I do not have my front blocked yet. I don't know if that helps but I had it blocked last year and had no incidents.

Anyway, I am now in agreement with those that say the fix is NOT a fix, because it most definitely happened again, and I most definitely have the latest fix. This was in fact the worst case of pulling water in that the car has ever experienced, including before the update. So ya, the poll should have one more added to the second question.

 

[BuzzKen]

Very simply, if VW knew it was a 'fix', it would be installed from factory. It is a 'go away and be quiet' fix.

 

[TDI_Coast2Coast]

Post deleted

 

[Romulox]

I think I may be experiencing this IC issue. I have a 2010 Golf TDI w/ DSG. I live in the Boston, MA area, and it has not been very cold yet, which makes me unsure. My wife does drive the car very early in the morning (around 5:30am when it could be colder) on weekdays and then either parks it in our mildly heated garage or I drive it to work and park it outside. In the past two weeks when leaving work I have had problems starting two times.

The first time, it started and was running pretty rough, and when I went to immediately pull out of the parking spot and turn at the same time it died. I then restarted it right away and gave it a bit more throttle to keep it from dieing. After that the 30 mile drive home went normally after warm up.

Yesterday, I had a second starting problem. It tried to start but failed one time. It started on the second try, but was running very rough. I gave it a few blips of the throttle and drove off. On the highway, which I drive every day, I noticed some excessive hill climb like feelings over very slight elevation changes that I have never experienced before, and I am pretty good about noticing that type of thing. I also noticed some power dips where the car would feel like it was going to stall but then quickly recover. It felt kinda like being tugged forward then back within the car.

This sounds like it could be related to the IC icing/melting issues, but I have not driven in any below freezing weather for any long periods of time. There have been a few instances of near freezing rain and foggy mornings that I have driven in.

My car has 83,000 miles on it so I am out of warranty, and my problems seem marginal at this point. Do you think I would have any luck taking it to the dealership and expressing my concerns? Have people gotten this fix covered by VWoA this far along in miles?

Thanks to everyone for sharing your anecdotes and tips.

 

[VeeDubTDI]

I see this thread is alive and well again this year.

 

[TDI_Coast2Coast]

Post removed

 

[Romulox]

Thank you for your reply, Coast2Coast. I have already had my exhaust flap replaced one time at around 40k miles, so maybe now that I am at 80k I am due again

I also just replaced all four of my glow plug pressure sensors about a month ago, just after the 80k service. Come to think of it, just before I finally decided to pull the trigger on the replacement glow plugs, I did have an extended cranking period after work on the first real cool day of the year, but I just chalked that up to the single faulty glow plug pressure sensor, and decided to order the parts that day bc I was afraid of having more starting problems in the winter.

Do you think it would be strange that I have gone through 4 winters without this problem manifesting itself to have it show up on the 5th round?

I suppose I should take it to the local VW dealership and tell them I have had problems starting in cool conditions, had it die after a start, rough idle, and power fluctuations while driving. I should ask them to inspect the intake system such as the intake manifold and inter-cooler (especially for water or sludge), and the exhaust system, especially the exhaust flap valve and dpf.

I really hope this doesn't cost me too much money, but I would rather get this sorted at a time of my choosing, then heading home from work in the middle of winter.

 

[TDI_Coast2Coast]

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[SkeeterMark]

Get the word ICE out of your head for a moment. It's condensation and a lack of heat. If it is 32F(and even colder, though how much I can't say) it is impossible to create ice. The IC is always going to be the same or hotter than ambient air. You're collecting water. Most cases, IMO, there is no ice until you let it sit out in subfreezing weather, after the water has condensed and accumulated.

I respectfully disagree. Ice forms in there when the condensing water meets cold temperatures. The ice itself does not cause a bad startup....it doesn't go through the system. The IC is often cold enough for ice to form in cold climates. It gets way colder than 32F.

The problem, imo, occurs after a car that has turned some amount of condensate into ice then sits in a warmer temperature such as a garage or outside on a warming day, allowing the ice to melt and prepare a big ol' slug of water to be ingested at next startup.

In a warmer climate, the IC may still produce the condensate, but it continually flows through the system (which still ain't a good thing), so water does not necessarily "accumulate" like it does when a chunk of ice melts and the engine is not running. Worst case here is a little rough running or a "miss" or two.

So I don't think you're likely to park with accumulated water and then have it freeze, because if it's already water, it's going through the system. You need to park with ice that formed in there during your drive, have it melt, and then you will have an episode of bad start/hydro lock.

 

[TDI_Coast2Coast]

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[SkeeterMark]

True, but there may be a venturi effect present, which might be creating an area of reduced pressure, thus increasing the temperature at which ice can form. You can see this happen in carburetors - forming ice under the right conditions in ambient temperatures as high as 40*F. This could account for the range in temps where this occurs.

 

[TDI_Coast2Coast]

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[VeeDubTDI]

Whether or not it is forming ice is kind of irrelevant. It is condensing moisture, which builds up either in liquid or frozen form. That's the point.

 

[6DOF]

I had my 2011 in for unrelated service this week and my local dealer quoted me $1100 to install the upgraded intercooler and related hardware. Since it is only a TSB and not a recall I have to pick up the tab for the entire amount. This will have to wait till after Christmas...

The finance committee has deferred this for now...

 

[TDI_Coast2Coast]

Post Removed

 

[Dozenspeed]

I just wish to report I have the original IC, going into 4th winter, thousands of miles in ideal IC freeze-over conditions, 3-5 hard start situations in all this time, and I don't have any issues when I have the bottom 3 intake slats blocked with simple foam pipe insulation tubes.

 

[MAXecutive]

I just wish to report I have the original IC, going into 4th winter, thousands of miles in ideal IC freeze-over conditions, 3-5 hard start situations in all this time, and I don't have any issues when I have the bottom 3 intake slats blocked with simple foam pipe insulation tubes.

Can you post up some pictures for everyone?

 

[Dozenspeed]

Can you post up some pictures for everyone?

Ya get a 4 pack of 4" pipe insulation tubes $2-$5, cut three down to fit the 3 slots. Remove the adhesive strips and pinch the tube closed. Jam them in there for while, and later pull them out and cut nice little 1/4-1/3 deep slits for slats where the indentations are. Reapply to car working the slits around the slats.

This year: First 2 nights below freezing a couple of issues were experienced. After that several nights ago since the tubes were put in, no issues. Same freezing temps, same 200-300 miles mixed driving a night. I'm sold.

EDIT: The above pic happened to be taken during the small window I was trying to make a good impression. So those are pre-slat-slit tubes.

 

[Joeym4692]

I'm going to have to try this with my Mk5 Jetta

 

[grey matter]

I used the foam insulation last year but it fell off a few times in high cross winds. This year I picked up some one inch round foam from Rona (comes in ten foot lengths for $5.00) and it works fabulously. Just pushes into the slots in the top grill snug and comes out real easy if the need arises. The bottom, I still use the pipe insulation. I'm not paying over $100.00 for a cover. I've got other things to waste money on.

 

[MAXecutive]

Nice, I will be trying this tomorrow. 4" seems kinda big, I guess you are doubling it up for a tighter fit.

 

[Dozenspeed]

Apologies for the misprint, 4' not 4 inches..... diameter is 3/4"......

This has been sufficient with the little slits cut to allow grip and deeper fit, they've never popped out even during full-on automatic car washes.

 

[MAXecutive]

So I gave this a shot today. I used 3/4" rubber type pip insulation from Home Depot. After doing the bottom I decided to try the top so I picked up a 1" size. I didn't like how it looked covering the entire grille with one piece so I only did the bottom half of it.

 

[MagnaRGP]

Count me in as a likely new member of the icing club...had my car run like crap yesterday with the sudden warm-up in Southwestern Ontario. Got to the bottom of my driveway and as I went to pull away, she stalled out. With someone now bearing down on me, I cranked her over and it started, stumbled and stalled again. Fortunately the clown who was bearing down on me finally noticed my 4-ways and slowed down.

I cranked it again (no hydrolock) and she fired up, and ran like hell for about 45 seconds with little power. Then it cleared up and ran reasonably fine (probably me being over-sensitive).

Called the dealer today to report it and schedule in my 20,000km service, and was told that my 2014 should have come from the factory with the new intercooler. They said there is no bulletin on 2014's. True? I'll add to the poll when I know which intercooler is on my car.

They're still going to look at it and also apply the block-heater recall. Le sigh....

 

[Black_Smoke]

Count me in as a likely new member of the icing club...had my car run like crap yesterday with the sudden warm-up in Southwestern Ontario. Got to the bottom of my driveway and as I went to pull away, she stalled out. With someone now bearing down on me, I cranked her over and it started, stumbled and stalled again. Fortunately the clown who was bearing down on me finally noticed my 4-ways and slowed down.

I cranked it again (no hydrolock) and she fired up, and ran like hell for about 45 seconds with little power. Then it cleared up and ran reasonably fine (probably me being over-sensitive).

Called the dealer today to report it and schedule in my 20,000km service, and was told that my 2014 should have come from the factory with the new intercooler. They said there is no bulletin on 2014's. True? I'll add to the poll when I know which intercooler is on my car.

They're still going to look at it and also apply the block-heater recall. Le sigh....

Same thing happened to me. They wouldn't do anything until it hydrolocked and I had it towed in (814 km tow!). I sent them the info about he TSB's in this thread. They also told me that there wasn't one for the 2014, but they did put in a different intercooler some kind of vacuum actuated thing near the throttle valve after consulting with the VW tech line or whatever they call it.

There was so much water in it that they initially thought I had somehow submarined the car. Got out of that one by demonstrating that the air filter was still dry.