Mk6 Jetta: Hard Start / No Start - Intercooler icing discussion in here!

[MAXecutive]

It's starting to make more sense now with the borderline temp/humidity issues. The IC scenarios above are great points. Is the IC update something done as a warranty recall or is that an update you pay for if you think you need it? I'm out of factory warranty but have an extended warranty from the dealer.

I'm still skeptical on the fuel but topping it off does help either way ...

 

[MAXecutive]

Here are the codes I pulled from the car:

3 Faults Found:

000665 - Boost Pressure Regulation

P0299 - 001 - Control Range Not Reached - Intermittent

Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 00100001
Fault Priority: 2
Fault Frequency: 1
Mileage: 66195 km
Time Indication: 0
Date: 2028.14.09
Time: 17:38:36
Freeze Frame:
RPM: 1725 /min
Speed: 85.0 km/h
Load: 76.9 %
Pressure: 2238.5 mbar
Pressure: 943.8 mbar
Lambda: 92.3 %
Lambda: 92.3 %

​

000665 - Boost Pressure Regulation

P0299 - 000 - Control Range Not Reached - Intermittent

Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 00100000
Fault Priority: 2
Fault Frequency: 1
Mileage: 66195 km
Time Indication: 0
Date: 2028.14.09
Time: 17:38:50
Freeze Frame:
RPM: 2760 /min
Speed: 74.0 km/h
Load: 93.7 %
Pressure: 2456.3 mbar
Pressure: 605.0 mbar
Lambda: 92.3 %
Lambda: 91.5 %

​

000567 - Manifold Pressure / Boost Sensor (G31)

P0237 - 000 - Signal too Low - Intermittent

Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 00100000
Fault Priority: 2
Fault Frequency: 1
Mileage: 66195 km
Time Indication: 0
Date: 2028.14.09
Time: 17:38:53
Freeze Frame:
RPM: 2507 /min
Speed: 68.0 km/h
Voltage: 14.14 V
Pressure: 1028.5 mbar
Pressure: 375.1 mbar
Temperature: -0.9°C
Temperature: 13.5°C
​

 

[japedo]

Intercoller icing is a decieving term. I read many posts where people don't understand how they could be experiencing intercoller icing issues in temperatures above/ near the freezing point.

It would be more self explanatory if it was worded as intercooler melting. Maybe...
Haveing a bit of ice in the intercooler is not necessarily the problem, but when the ice melts the intake draws up the water via boost pressure, and we all know that is not a good thing.

I have a hard time believing that your fuel was gelling at the the temperature you were driving in. But it could have I suppose.

Best of
Luck

 

[RebelTDI]

If you are motivated and have ramps, you can pull the IC hose off and see if a bunch of water comes out. You'll need Hex screwdrivers to remove the plastic shield. The IC hose will be in the front on the passenger side. Loosen the clamp and wiggle the hose off the IC. It is not difficult. Otherwise, have the dealer do it for you.

 

[TDI2000Zim]

I don't trust the diesel supply in this region of the country (and I am 100 miles down the Parkway), Slime of all sorts play around with fuel deliveries.

I suggest you start a strict regime of adding a winterizing diesel additive to every diesel fill up, like HOWES, STANADYNE, POWERSERVICE, or LUCAS.

Hello everyone and Happy New Year! I have a long story for you ...

I have a 2012 TDI with 41k miles. Today on my commute home from work my car suddenly lost ALL power. The car started up normally with the outside temperature at 30deg. I drive about 2 miles of local stop and go and then get on the NY Thruway. After I got on the highway, the car drove fine for 10 miles. I got onto the Tappan Zee Bridge (Eastbound) which has a long hill climb and had no issues. After I slowed down for the toll to about 40mph, I start to accelerate again as normal. I shifted into 5th gear at about 50mph going up another incline. Around 53mph, the car told me that I should downshift to 4th which seemed very odd because there was no engine strain and that is the gear I always use at that spot. I hit the gas and the car struggled to accelerate so I downshifted to 4th. I then give it gas and there was NO response. The fuel heater light started flashing. The car said to downshift to 3rd when I'm doing about 40+ mph now. I went to 3rd and still had absolutely no power. and the Check Engine Light came on. Has anyone experience anything like this before? Is this the freezing intercooler issue?

I was in the left lane with a very narrow shoulder on a left hand turn. It was too dangerous to stop there so I had to time traffic and jump over 4 lanes to the broad right side shoulder. At one point I was in the middle lane waiting for a car to pass and doing 20 mph uphill with no power. I avoided a near miss in the final lane and made it to the shoulder. A highway road assistance vehicle pulled up within 2 minutes.

If I attempted to start the car, it would turn on but the gas pedal felt like it was unplugged. It did not rev the engine at all. The car would start stuttering and stall. It had no battery issues, fuel was at 1/2 tank. A flatbed showed up and we were about to tow the car to a nearby VW dealer but I decided to give the car another try since 15-20 minutes went by. The car started fine, revved to the limiter with no stuttering issues. The tow truck guy say it may just be gelled fuel. What I don't understand is why didn't this happen on the 9 degree night? Tonight was 30deg and I had a horrible experience.

I decided to go to the nearest gas station and top off the fuel thinking that I didn't have a "winterized blend" in the tank. This is where the next issue occurred, the gas tank door would not open. It was frozen shut. I kept banging on the door and was about to pour hot water from the coffee machine on it. While waiting for the boiling water to cool down a bit, I managed to open the door and find ice all over it. Melting ice during the daytime today couldn't have anything to do with this I topped off the tank with 7 gallons and drove home like nothing ever happened...

Let me give you some background information now ... I've been using the same gas station since I bought this car over 2 years ago. It's a major rest area on the Garden State Parkway.

• The last time I fueled this car up was on 12/19
• On 12/20, the car was driven for 60 miles and then parked up until 12/25, Christmas Day
• On 12/25, I drove the car for about 40 miles and parked it up for about 2 weeks with occasional start ups.
  • On 12/31, I started the car up for a few minutes to let it idle and drive it around the parking lot.
  • On 1/3, I started the car up for about 2 minutes since it was very cold, about 10 degrees.
  • On 1/7 morning (Tuesday of this week) it was 4 degrees overnight and I started the car in the morning with no issues. The fuel heater light came on for a few seconds, came off, and the engine turned over with no issue on the first attempt. The idle was just over 1k rpm and I let it run for about 5 minutes.
• On 1/7 night, I drove the car home (32 mile commute, 9deg temp, idled for 20 minutes before driving). I did notice that at 12mph it was telling me to downshift to 1st. I though it just had something to do with the weather and didn't bother with it. The car drove normal.
• On 1/8, yesterday morning, I started the car up in the morning (12 deg) and had no issues on my way to work.
• On 1/8, last night, (20 deg) I did notice that the car wanted to be revved a little higher in the lower gears. I was not driving the car rough due to cold weather and didn't notice any highway power issues.
• On 1/9, this morning (23deg) no issues.

What should my next steps be? I have an AutoXtend 7yr/100k Warranty that was purchased from the dealer. I was planning on taking the car to dealer that was more convenient for me since it is accepted at all VWs. What would they actually do and would it be covered Does this sound like a bad blend of diesel that was sitting in the car too long? Does the ice have anything to do with it? Is there any possible fuel filter or pump damage? I do have a Ross Tech cable but not sure how to used it to check for CEL codes. Should I just do that myself? The weather is suppose to be 40s tomorrow and mid 50s on Saturday.

Sorry for the long thread. Please let me know if anything was not clear and thanks for your help in advance.

 

[MAXecutive]

Intercoller icing is a decieving term. I read many posts where people don't understand how they could be experiencing intercoller icing issues in temperatures above/ near the freezing point.

It would be more self explanatory if it was worded as intercooler melting. Maybe...
Haveing a bit of ice in the intercooler is not necessarily the problem, but when the ice melts the intake draws up the water via boost pressure, and we all know that is not a good thing.

I have a hard time believing that your fuel was gelling at the the temperature you were driving in. But it could have I suppose.

Best of
Luck

Totally agree. It made more sense to me this morning. Cold air will keep ice in a solid state and just restrict air flow through the pipping. The real issues starts when the ice changes states back and forth from solid/liquid.

If you are motivated and have ramps, you can pull the IC hose off and see if a bunch of water comes out. You'll need Hex screwdrivers to remove the plastic shield. The IC hose will be in the front on the passenger side. Loosen the clamp and wiggle the hose off the IC. It is not difficult. Otherwise, have the dealer do it for you.

Is there pictures of this process online? I assume this is the turbo to IC hose.

 

[RebelTDI]

When you get the plastic shield removed it will be obvious. It is the hose furthest on the passenger side, behind the front bumper.

 

[MAXecutive]

If you are motivated and have ramps, you can pull the IC hose off and see if a bunch of water comes out. You'll need Hex screwdrivers to remove the plastic shield. The IC hose will be in the front on the passenger side. Loosen the clamp and wiggle the hose off the IC. It is not difficult. Otherwise, have the dealer do it for you.

See update below. I would of done this myself but I decided to have the dealer investigate and hopefully end up with the Cold Weather IC.

I don't trust the diesel supply in this region of the country (and I am 100 miles down the Parkway), Slime of all sorts play around with fuel deliveries.

I suggest you start a strict regime of adding a winterizing diesel additive to every diesel fill up, like HOWES, STANADYNE, POWERSERVICE, or LUCAS.

That why I only fill up at the GSP Montvale station. I figured that the diesel moves extremely fast there and I would rarely run into problems. But if the supply is bad, thats a whole different story. I never put any additives in the tank since I owned the car. This is my 3rd winter with it.

 

[MAXecutive]

UPDATE:

I decided to call up the VWoA number based on the info from GraniteRooster's thread: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=302863

They took notes of my entire highway incident and I explained the Icing IC TSB and my expired/extended warranty situation. They opened a case for me and suggested that I set up an appointment with my VW dealer and then notify them of the Dealer, Date, Time, and Service Advisor. VWoA will then follow-up on the diagnostics directly with the dealer. The representative told me that they may be able to assist if the problem is the IC and the extended warranty does not cover it.

My dealer doesn't have any loaner cars available until Thursday so I couldn't drop it off today. I drove the car home and the idle was smooth however I noticed a decrease in performance. I would have to be one gear lower than normal to feel the same power I normally would at any given speed. For example, doing 60mph in 6th gear felt like I was trying to do 50 in 6th. I needed to stay in 5th gear for most of the commute.

My plan is to leave the car parked up until Thursday morning and drive to dealer and have them diagnose it. They told me that is will be an initial fee of $125 and they will contact the extend warranty (AutoXtend) to find out if the problem is covered (IC in this case). I have their Elite plan and according to the brochure, turbo/supercharger and ICs are covered.

 

[RDC98tdi]

It sounds similar to my IC icing issue. What ended up happening was I drove it in the teens one evening, then the next morning it was about 40 on the way to work. The condensation thawed enough and mixed with the blowby gasses to create a slimy sludge that plugged up or messed up my MAP sensor. I had the same code as your third one. They replaced my intercooler and the associated sensors and I have not had a problem yet.

 

[MAXecutive]

Ok. Good to know. Is any sludge possible without the water situation?

 

[RDC98tdi]

You might have an oily film even without the condensation, but most likely it has to mix with the moisture to create the nasty baby sh*t looking sludge. Other people have it or water get ingested into the actual engine, and that's a lot worse!

 

[bennybmn]

I got VW to pay for my AC compressor that failed, but I had to shell out at the dealer first...

 

[c4markee]

They finally got me the compression numbers. Anyone know what they are stock, not even sure what the numbers are they gave me 29.0 29.0 29.8 29.4?

 

[turboboost1]

Appears they gave you the compression numbers in "bar" where 1 bar = 14.50377 PSI. Your numbers in PSI would then be 420.6, 420.6, 432.2 and 426.4 respectively.

 

[ErackTDI]

just had this done on my 2013 jetta with 9700 kms on it

 

[jkowalski]

My dealer in Arkansas denied doing the TSB under the powertrain warranty. (I'm at 53,000 miles)
No noticeable mechanical issues. Car started later the day this happened. Pulled the IC "cold" pipe, with no noticeable water drained from it (probably ingested it, since I pulled the pipe after successfully starting and driving the car).

Meh to VW on "dealing" with the issues this motor/supporting items have been having across platforms.

 

[Jayg]

Got the intercooler kit installed about a week ago. Since getting it back I have experienced extremely rough regens (think about to rip out the motor mounts stall) every 25 miles or so, hiccups while at part throttle,horrendous fuel economy, but yet no check engine light.

I went to the dealer Friday to let them know. They documented the concerns and scanned the car. Found no faults and ash load looked fine so they sent me on my way.

The next morning another rough regen occurs and then followed up by a check engine light. Its at the dealer now. I have driven pretty much every car in the Volkswagen lineup (as a loaner) within the last 15 months and 21k miles of ownership with this car. The trunk had a leak since new and took 7 trips to the dealer to get fixed. Several trips to report the hesitation and hiccups in the tune. Then 1 trip to the dealer on a tow truck for not starting because of the IC issue. 2 more trips since then to followup. Either a 6 speed gas Tiguan or a light pickup truck is in my future.

 

[bagmite]

I've got a 2011 MK6 with 51,000 miles and have read for several years the posts on intercooler icing. While I understand what is happening to cause it, what confuses me is why some people get the problem and others don't, even living in cold areas. Does anyone have an explanation or theory (e.g. different ECU parameters) for the disparity?

 

[RDC98tdi]

The key is large temperature swings from sub-freezing to above freezing. Example: when I experienced it, I drove home from work one evening when it was probably around 35 and kind of snowy/damp outside. During this time, some moisture got into my IC and either pooled or collected in the IC piping. When the car sat overnight, even more collected and some might have frozen? Next morning it was in the mid 40's and pretty warm and all of this thawed. When the moisture in the IC mixes with the blowby gasses from the turbo, it heats up (and in my case created a baby sh*t looking sludge) that got sucked up past the actual intercooler. In my case, it gummed up a sensor. Some people have the moisture go all the way into the engine.

 

[ChiTownPilot]

Well I think we can add me to the list as well... Drove the car two days ago (28-30 degrees and snowing) and now this afternoon it won't start. Tried a few times and called roadside. This way if it is the intercooler there should definitely still be water in it since I never got a successful start. The dealership told me that they are familiar with the problem but have NEVER had one come through their shop. Sounds like a contradicting statement to me. Well considering I didn't want to pull the hose and remove all evidence of the water of there is any, I can't confirm that I have the icing issue just yet. But I'll keep you guys posted.

 

[Samcar222]

ChiTown, if this happens, don't try to get it to start. Call roadside like you did, and get it towed. Ask politely for the dealer to drain the IC, and as you have a 2013, install the cold weather kit under warranty, if they find water. Ask specifically for the latest revision of the kit, "the 10*c kit".

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B162-sX2NN5lUzBIdG9hcVR6NUU/edit?pli=1

Install revised charge cooler....... (page 2) P/N 1K0.... thats the number you want to mention. Or just print off the whole document and show it to them.

 

[ChiTownPilot]

Thanks for the response... That is exactly what I did, printed off the TSB and everything. So the tow truck dropped the car in the service lane and the service rep got in it and IT STARTED! Ran like **** for about 3-5 seconds then he stabbed the throttle and it coughed pretty bad then ran perfectly fine. After he did that I was like "well that didn't sound good" and his response was: "Well that was me I gave it gas. It seems to be running fine and there is no CEL so idk what we are going to find but I'll get back to you tomorrow." I'm assuming he just forced whatever water was in there through the engine. So at this point he's probably right... They probably won't find anything. I did request that they pull the intercooler hose and he said if they put it on a lift they will. I'm not holding breath that anything will be done. Just frustrating because I look like the idiot that had his car towed in just to have it start. Still feel like I did the right thing... At least I should have record of it happening on the service history of the car now so if it happens again outside of warranty I'll have some ground to stand on. I just don't want the next time that it doesn't start to be on a work day.

 

[ChiTownPilot]

So quick update: Service rep called me today and told me they started the car today and it ran fine so he wants to let it sit overnight and check it in the morning. Now he claims that it was rough when he started it because it hasn't been started in 2 days. You gotta be kidding me! For someone who claims to be knowledgable on the intercooler issue... He doesn't seem to know anything about how it happens. I have complete faith that it will start without issue tomorrow morning and I will be called to pick up my car without anything being done. Might be time to find another dealership for future service.

 

[Jettagain]

IC Icing Round 2

Second time; i had a starting issue this morning....Temps were around 10 on my drive home last night...
Is it better to leave it outside so the Ice doesn't melt?
I have a dealer appointment Friday but I am sure it is a waste of time...Called VWoA and they stated they will be working with the dealer.
I am ready to trade it away

 

[Locnar]

I just got my IC kit installed today; just in time for this latest cold snap. Fingers crossed that this resolves the issue going forward.

When I brought it in initially, they checked it and found water and 'sludge' - so this prompted them to order the kit for me.

I do not have a heated garage (checked your last post) - but mine does stay about 10-15 degrees warmer then the outdoor temperature. Regardless - I can't help but think if they find water in there, iced or not, that you will not have a hard time getting it replaced.

Others may have a different ,set of circumstances but I thought I'd share my experience since we are in the same region of the US.

 

[ShawnShady]

That's sucks. I am in New England also and haven't had problems,yet. I drive the car everyday and park it my unheated garage at night. The last time I had the oil changed I ask the mechanic if he had seen a lot of inter cooler icing issues and he said they have. I would like to know if the egr valve has something to do with this problem.

 

[iamatt]

Is this something we need to worry about down here in Southern Texas? I asked guy at dealer about the kit and he had no clue what I was talking about. The worst it gets here is maybe some frost on the house roof then its 70F by lunch time.

 

[SkeeterMark]

Second time; i had a starting issue this morning....Temps were around 10 on my drive home last night...
Is it better to leave it outside so the Ice doesn't melt?
I have a dealer appointment Friday but I am sure it is a waste of time...Called VWoA and they stated they will be working with the dealer.
I am ready to trade it away

Your ice will melt eventually, so no, it won't help.

Why a waste of time? My dealer didn't even hesitate at doing the update.
Ask them if they've done others, and make sure they know YOU know about the issue, and just be civil with them, and I'm sure they will accomodate you, unless you just have some D'bag dealer, I guess.
Sounds like you don't really like the car, because this is really not a big deal, imo.

Is this something we need to worry about down here in Southern Texas? I asked guy at dealer about the kit and he had no clue what I was talking about. The worst it gets here is maybe some frost on the house roof then its 70F by lunch time.

Probably not to worry as long as you hang around there. If you travel to colder areas, you may have problems. You might have a harder time getting the update down there because they don't see it happen or have any complaints, dunno.

 

[RDC98tdi]

Sounds like you don't really like the car, because this is really not a big deal, imo.



Probably not to worry as long as you hang around there. If you travel to colder areas, you may have problems. You might have a harder time getting the update down there because they don't see it happen or have any complaints, dunno.

It's not a huge problem as long as it is covered under warranty. I could kind of understand where he is coming from -- if it has happened to him twice already, what's stopping it from happening when he has to pay out of pocket?