Mk6 Jetta: Hard Start / No Start - Intercooler icing discussion in here!

If you have experienced intercooler icing, select from the following options...


  • Total voters
    135

c4markee

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 15, 2009
Location
Grand Rapids/ Kalamazoo
TDI
2011 TDI Jetta
Attention Mk6 Jetta owners! Moderator note and thread merger:

Due to the high volume of intercooler icing threads popping up with the cold weather, I'm creating a STICKY thread in this forum to contain all intercooler icing related discussions. This will make it easier to find information in the future, rather than have a dozen threads about similar issues.

Bear with me as I combine old threads in the Mk6 Jetta forum into this sticky thread. Some posts may seem out of sequence, but that's because multiple threads are being combined into one.

If you're looking for more information on intercooler icing and cold weather no-start related issues, please see (and contribute to) the following thread...

Main TDIClub intercooler icing thread: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=302863

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ORIGINAL THREAD/PROBLEM SUMMARY:
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UPDATE 12/21/13

New TSB issued that includes all VWs with CBEA and CJAA engines (Audi A3 is unknown), including Beetle and Beetle Convertible. See attached PDF for complete TSB.

Intercooler kit changeover valve revised from 0C to 10C.

Current TSB in PDF format

-VeeDubTDI

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UPDATE 01/18/12

GraniteRooster's Frozen Charge Air Cooler (Intercooler) FAQ / Problem Summary


In an attempt to provide to most relevant details to the forum in summary format, I have compiled the following brief of the issues. This is multifaceted problem whose unresolved issues and discussion runs much deeper than this summary - I'd encourage folks to read the thread in detail for best understanding. At 1900+ posts and counting, you'll need a cup of coffee/tea and comfy chair ;)

Problem
When driving in winter conditions (below ~20-25°F), external airflow over the air-air intercooler (IC) is cold enough to cause internal ice buildup in the IC and outlet charge hose assembly. Ice buildup may lead to a variety of operational difficulties including restricted intake, reduced power, LIMP mode, engine stumbling, melt water or ice ingestion, and catastrophic engine damage.

Affected Engines
All 2.0L CR TDI engines (CJAA/CBEA) installed in all 2009-2012 model year Jetta TDI, Jetta Sportwagen TDI, and Golf TDI vehicles. Vehicles in both US and Canada are affected.

Occurrence
Ice buildup occurs while driving in cold winter conditions, typically below ~20-25°F. Melt water and ice ingestion may be experienced on subsequent engine start if the car is allowed to thaw while parked (such as in a warm garage, or warm parking lot above freezing temperatures).

Causes
This is a thermodynamic phenomenon caused by condensation and subsequent freezing or direct vapor deposition of water vapor as the turbo-compressed charge air is cooled through the IC and outlet charge hose assembly. Two main aspects of engine design contribute to the problem:

  1. Low-pressure EGR is used to control NOx formation for emissions compliance, however, this recirculates water vapor rich exhaust back to the turbo and IC.
  2. The IC design on these vehicles is very efficient, providing good heat transfer and economy (and good ice formation under proper conditions)
Symptoms
Ice
  • Restricted Intake & Reduced Power
  • LIMP Mode (flashing MIL’s, “Service Now” message)
  • Engine will not turn over (complete ice obstruction of intake)
  • Catastrophic engine damage (ice chip ingestion)
Water

  • Engine will not turn over, "dead battery" starter action (due to hydraulic resistance in cylinder)
  • Starter/electrical fires (due to starter overheating during attempts to start locked engine)
  • Engine will turn over slow / not start (drowning)
  • Engine will misfire, stumble, and run roughly upon starting (water ingestion)
  • Engine will misfire, stumble and run roughly upon acceleration (water ingestion)
  • Catastrophic engine damage (water ingestion – hydrolock)
Solutions
VW has issued Technical Service Bulletin (TSB) TSB # 21 11 06 / 2025464 Frozen Charge Air Cooler. The kit may be installed by dealers on documented vehicles under original 36k warranty. Customers outside 36k warranty have often been denied installation under 60k powertrain warranty.

A (basically ineffective placebo) temporary solution implemented by VW involves removal of the forward facing cold air intake "snorkle" so that the airbox draws air from the engine bay, which allegedly may be warmer. In practice, TDIClub member testing has shown this modification to make insignificant changes to intake air temperatures, and is therefore ineffective.

What to Do - Frozen IC happened to me!
If the car won't start after one attempt, or stumbles and dies after an initial attempt, ***STOP!*** You have some decision making to do...

Further attempts to start the engine may (or may not) cause damage from minor to catastrophic. Depending on the amount of water in the intake and engine, damage may occur to pistons, connecting rods, glow plugs, injectors, head gaskets, etc. due to hydraulic lock. There is also risk of starter and electrical system damage from repeated start attempts against a locked engine. You will need to choose:

  • Service the car (preferred) , or
  • Attempt to start the engine and get where you are going (risky)
The best solution is to clear the intake and engine of water and ice before starting. However, it seems the engines are often able to pass melt water with undetectable or no damage. The preferred actions are:

  • Option 1: If under 36k warranty period, have the car towed to a VW dealer by VWoA to have the water and ice drained out and problem documented for installation of Technical Service Bulletin (TSB) TSB # 21 11 06 / 2025464 Frozen Charge Air Cooler. Dealers typically will require this hands-on service and documentation to gain required approval from VWoA for installation of the IC TSB under warranty.
  • Option 2: Elevate the front of the car on jackstands, remove belly pan and lower IC outlet charge hose, remove water and ice from assembly. Reassemble and drive. This option will not be convenient for a typical owner in most typical situations, given need for jacks, stands, tools, light, etc. plus safe environment and time to complete the repair.
  • Option 3: Have vehicle towed to appropriate repair facility for removal of water and ice from the IC assembly
Owners should report problems to their VW dealer and VWoA (1-800-822-8987) (or VWoC, etc.) as they occur. VWoA has the ultimate say in warranty installation of IC Kits; they rely on dealers to be gatekeepers on diagnosis, therefore dissatisfied owners having difficulty with installation approval should increase negotiations directly with both dealer and VWoA. Owners with safety concerns due to this issue should contact NHTSA and report their concerns.


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UPDATE 01/17/12

Click hyperlink for .PDF copy of TSB # 21 11 06 / 2025464

(Credit 740GLE Post #1352)


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UPDATE 09/14/11

TSB # 21 11 01 / 2025464 dated May 24, 2011 has been super-ceded by TSB # 21 11 02 / 2025464 dated June 14, 2011 and most recently, TSB # 21 11 06 / 2025464 dated September 6, 2011. The latest TSB referenced updates to warranty table and labor information. It may be helpful to reference the latest TSB when requesting warranty work.

(Credit Aerox Post #1003)


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UPDATE 6/2011

There is now a TSB with a fix for this issue. TSB # 21 11 01 / 2025464 dated May 24, 2011, titled "Frozen Charge Air Cooler – Engine Will Not Start". It calls for installing a 1K0-198-803-B Cold Weather Intercooler Kit.

The kit includes:

  • New Intercooler (IC) with internal vacuum-actuated flap valve
  • Vacuum Sensor
  • Intake Elbow with Temperature Probe & Vacuum Actuator
  • required plumbing

Installation requires 3-4 hours labor and corresponding ECU software update. This kit was installed on my car by VW on 07/06/2011. Here are pictures of the kit installed on my '10 JSW, as seen from the front of the engine compartment. The post-IC intake charge temperature/vacuum actuator are circled in red. The rest of the kit is not easily viewed without removing the engine belly pan, etc.





EDIT 03/07/2012: Member UberVW_TDI posted nice pictures of the components of the kit in Post 792.

Integrated Temperature Sensor and Vacuum Switch / Blending Valve mounted on Elbow


Intercooler with vacuum actuated diverter valve


03G-906-051-K (VACUUM SENSOR)


EDIT 03/07/2012: Member PAJettaTDI posted good photos of his installation in his photo thread.



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Post from original merged thread:

Last year about Feb I had to bring my car to the dealer because it would not start, let it sit awhile and fired up.
Did it again yesterday. Pulled out the battery tester, had 95% left and just flipped to maintain. Went upstairs for something and came back it fired up, ran like poop and smoothed out.
Started looking into it and driving in the snow storm could have frozen my inter cooler from what I have seen, no codes though. Brought it to the dealer yesterday after work (ran fine to work ect), to have them look at it and install the tech bulletin equipment (IF THEY FOUND WATER?!) Sounds like they found a bit of water, not sure what their plan is, they want to keep it this weekend to see if it does it again Monday.
Anything else it could be before I start throwing a fit at them, already emailed VW cares executive people on it again.
Had the glow plug #3 go out last month too. I live in Michigan, I do not understand why a tech bulletin for cold weather stuff would even be considered optional at that point.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Bigwhitebeast

Veteran Member
Joined
May 1, 2012
Location
New York
TDI
2012 Jetta
Sounds like the intercooler icing issue, it doesn't matter if you were in a snowstorm, the issue happens due to the cold weather and then the thawing.

The intercooler tech bulletin doesn't really fix the issue so...:(
 

c4markee

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 15, 2009
Location
Grand Rapids/ Kalamazoo
TDI
2011 TDI Jetta
Lovely.. Gave me a warm fuzzy as I read this. Stopped by the dealer Friday night. They said they found a little water in the system but not a lot... I requested all the compression numbers of the cylinders.
Said they could not address the TSB until they got it to repeat the issue. Their DOE is to let the vehicle sit outside all weekend. Then try to start it Monday.
Not sure what that will accomplish. But guess we will see.
Called the VW customer cares and will be getting a call back from a warranty specialist I guess.
 

jmarshall

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2011
Location
Ahrensville, PA
TDI
2011 Jetta 6MT
Lovely.. Gave me a warm fuzzy as I read this. Stopped by the dealer Friday night. They said they found a little water in the system but not a lot... I requested all the compression numbers of the cylinders.
Said they could not address the TSB until they got it to repeat the issue. Their DOE is to let the vehicle sit outside all weekend. Then try to start it Monday.
Not sure what that will accomplish. But guess we will see.
Called the VW customer cares and will be getting a call back from a warranty specialist I guess.
Well since you have to drive the car to have the ice form in the intercooler, their plan seems like they are trying to purposely not be able to replicate the problem.
 

c4markee

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 15, 2009
Location
Grand Rapids/ Kalamazoo
TDI
2011 TDI Jetta
Well since you have to drive the car to have the ice form in the intercooler, their plan seems like they are trying to purposely not be able to replicate the problem.
Yea. I told him that his experiment was flawed. Did not seem to understand. Since it has happened twice (once 3/13, documented that it was in for a no start / lockup condition) I have VW calling me today. See what happens.

Could this have caused the glow plug #3 to go bad you guys think? They didn't save it when I picked it up, so I couldn't check to see what it was reading / anything.
 

c4markee

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 15, 2009
Location
Grand Rapids/ Kalamazoo
TDI
2011 TDI Jetta
Just got off the phone with the dealer. They are going to put the kit on. Dont know if that will help but at least its a step.
Asked for compression numbers again we will see if I get those.
 

jmarshall

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2011
Location
Ahrensville, PA
TDI
2011 Jetta 6MT
IC icing TSB outside of warranty period?

Has anyone had any issues getting VWoA to install this TSB on a car that is out of warranty?
 

Jayg

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2012
Location
Anchorage, AK
TDI
'12 Jetta 6MT-VW bought back as a lemon
2012 runs rough then stalls. Possible IC issue

I think I need to be added to the list of folks with the frozen intercooler. I'm waiting for a tow right now luckily at my girlfriends apartment. It has been Anywhere from 6* to 40* over the last few days here outside of Atlanta. Fuel treated with PS white bottle.

I drove the car last night in 14* weather and parked it over night. I go to leave this afternoon at about 45* and the key turns and I get 1 slow rotation. Hmm I thought the battery was low, though it shouldn't be. I try it again and the car runs ROUGH for maybe 2 seconds and then stalls. Sounds like it sucked in a big gulp of melted ****ty EGR. I stopped trying to turn it on but it sounds like a textbook IC icing. I need the TSB number 21 11 01 / 2025464 dated May 24, 2011, titled "Frozen Charge Air Cooler ***8211; Engine Will Not Start". It calls for installing a 1K0-198-803-B Cold Weather Intercooler Kit.

Sorry folks, I know i'm preaching to the choir here but I'm only going to type that paragraph once and then email it to the service advisor.

Just venting here. It really seems awful that for me to feel like this car would be reliable would be to delete the EGR/DPF, get a fuel pump filter return kit and then a tune. 3 grand worth of bull**** and I WANT a stock car. My other vehicles are toys I use whenever but this is the normal sane car that I need to turn on every time.
 
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jmarshall

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2011
Location
Ahrensville, PA
TDI
2011 Jetta 6MT
After my rough start issues last week, I am worried about what might happen come this weekend when it gets to 50.
 

jmarshall

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2011
Location
Ahrensville, PA
TDI
2011 Jetta 6MT
Anyone? I can't believe that there is no one here who has had experience getting this kit on a car that is outside of the 3/36 warranty.
 

Softrockrenegade

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 25, 2011
Location
Howellbama, NJ
TDI
None...2011 Golf DSG (replaced by VW W/) 2013 Passat SE 6M(bought back) Current 2017 sportwagen TSI 4Motion.
You can but it's gonna cost about 1400 for the dealer to install it.
 

pete's_TDI

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 12, 2009
Location
Long Island NY
TDI
2014 TDI Jetta sedan Black on Black 6M, VCDS on hand
if you have the issue and there is TSB for it, i would try to document it somehow , and maybe contact your local dealer. if you wont get anywhere try to call VWofA and talk to them. be nice politeness gets a lot done. Maybe you will get that taken care of.
 

Engineers<3Diesel

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 7, 2011
Location
North Carolina
TDI
2012 VW Jetta TDI
Mine is in the shop right now for this. Wife called me yesterday to tell me she couldn't start the car. She drove to work it was 14 degrees that morning. When I got to the car that evening it was 38. I've got 39000 miles on it so just outside of the 36000 mile window. Bad part is I asked to have this installed before the window was up and was denied as I didn't experience a failure.

We shall see how today goes. Noticed a few TDIs outside of the shop last night when towing the car in so curious as to how many of those had the same issue.
 

mac5155

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 19, 2012
Location
PA
TDI
2011 Jetta
Document and complain (nicely) to VWoA is all we can do, I guess. But to me, this has nothing to do with mileage. hopefully if we're loud enough, they will begin to honor them outside of warranty.
 

Engineers<3Diesel

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 7, 2011
Location
North Carolina
TDI
2012 VW Jetta TDI
Update - Dealer just called and confirmed my car had the IC icing issue. First time the dealer had ever seen that (living in NC not surprised as we had mild winters the past few years). I wrote the TSB # on my ticket when I dropped it off just in case they hadn't seen it. Also was told they confirmed another vehicle with the same issue as mine was towed in last night (thanks polar vortex).

Good news is VW is stepping up to the plate and covering this for me. Not sure if that had lots of pushing from the service manager or what, but good news seeing as though I was outside of my warranty period.
 

Jayg

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2012
Location
Anchorage, AK
TDI
'12 Jetta 6MT-VW bought back as a lemon
After my rough start issues last week, I am worried about what might happen come this weekend when it gets to 50.
Before starting it on that day I would loosen the intercooler pipe and just check. Take pictures if you do and see if you can get the kit ordered if you have anything in there.
 

MAXecutive

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 1, 2011
Location
New York
TDI
Jetta VI
COMPLETE Loss Off Power at 50mph on Highway

Hello everyone and Happy New Year! I have a long story for you ...

I have a 2012 TDI with 41k miles. Today on my commute home from work my car suddenly lost ALL power. The car started up normally with the outside temperature at 30deg. I drive about 2 miles of local stop and go and then get on the NY Thruway. After I got on the highway, the car drove fine for 10 miles. I got onto the Tappan Zee Bridge (Eastbound) which has a long hill climb and had no issues. After I slowed down for the toll to about 40mph, I start to accelerate again as normal. I shifted into 5th gear at about 50mph going up another incline. Around 53mph, the car told me that I should downshift to 4th which seemed very odd because there was no engine strain and that is the gear I always use at that spot. I hit the gas and the car struggled to accelerate so I downshifted to 4th. I then give it gas and there was NO response. The fuel heater light started flashing. The car said to downshift to 3rd when I'm doing about 40+ mph now. I went to 3rd and still had absolutely no power. and the Check Engine Light came on. Has anyone experience anything like this before? Is this the freezing intercooler issue?

I was in the left lane with a very narrow shoulder on a left hand turn. It was too dangerous to stop there so I had to time traffic and jump over 4 lanes to the broad right side shoulder. At one point I was in the middle lane waiting for a car to pass and doing 20 mph uphill with no power. I avoided a near miss in the final lane and made it to the shoulder. A highway road assistance vehicle pulled up within 2 minutes.

If I attempted to start the car, it would turn on but the gas pedal felt like it was unplugged. It did not rev the engine at all. The car would start stuttering and stall. It had no battery issues, fuel was at 1/2 tank. A flatbed showed up and we were about to tow the car to a nearby VW dealer but I decided to give the car another try since 15-20 minutes went by. The car started fine, revved to the limiter with no stuttering issues. The tow truck guy say it may just be gelled fuel. What I don't understand is why didn't this happen on the 9 degree night? Tonight was 30deg and I had a horrible experience.

I decided to go to the nearest gas station and top off the fuel thinking that I didn't have a "winterized blend" in the tank. This is where the next issue occurred, the gas tank door would not open. It was frozen shut. I kept banging on the door and was about to pour hot water from the coffee machine on it. While waiting for the boiling water to cool down a bit, I managed to open the door and find ice all over it. Melting ice during the daytime today couldn't have anything to do with this :confused: I topped off the tank with 7 gallons and drove home like nothing ever happened...


Let me give you some background information now ... I've been using the same gas station since I bought this car over 2 years ago. It's a major rest area on the Garden State Parkway.
  • The last time I fueled this car up was on 12/19
  • On 12/20, the car was driven for 60 miles and then parked up until 12/25, Christmas Day
  • On 12/25, I drove the car for about 40 miles and parked it up for about 2 weeks with occasional start ups.
    • On 12/31, I started the car up for a few minutes to let it idle and drive it around the parking lot.
    • On 1/3, I started the car up for about 2 minutes since it was very cold, about 10 degrees.
    • On 1/7 morning (Tuesday of this week) it was 4 degrees overnight and I started the car in the morning with no issues. The fuel heater light came on for a few seconds, came off, and the engine turned over with no issue on the first attempt. The idle was just over 1k rpm and I let it run for about 5 minutes.
  • On 1/7 night, I drove the car home (32 mile commute, 9deg temp, idled for 20 minutes before driving). I did notice that at 12mph it was telling me to downshift to 1st. I though it just had something to do with the weather and didn't bother with it. The car drove normal.
  • On 1/8, yesterday morning, I started the car up in the morning (12 deg) and had no issues on my way to work.
  • On 1/8, last night, (20 deg) I did notice that the car wanted to be revved a little higher in the lower gears. I was not driving the car rough due to cold weather and didn't notice any highway power issues.
  • On 1/9, this morning (23deg) no issues.

What should my next steps be? I have an AutoXtend 7yr/100k Warranty that was purchased from the dealer. I was planning on taking the car to dealer that was more convenient for me since it is accepted at all VWs. What would they actually do and would it be covered:confused: Does this sound like a bad blend of diesel that was sitting in the car too long? Does the ice have anything to do with it? Is there any possible fuel filter or pump damage? I do have a Ross Tech cable but not sure how to used it to check for CEL codes. Should I just do that myself? The weather is suppose to be 40s tomorrow and mid 50s on Saturday.

Sorry for the long thread. Please let me know if anything was not clear and thanks for your help in advance.
 
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MAXecutive

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 1, 2011
Location
New York
TDI
Jetta VI
Can you describe where the filter is under the hood for me? I'm not too familiar with the TDIs. Where would metal flakes come from anyway? The pump?
 

ChiTownPilot

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 11, 2013
Location
Valparaiso, IN
TDI
2013 Jetta TDI + Premium
When you say that you "topped off the tank with 7 gallons and drove home like nothing ever happened..." Are you saying that it ran completely normal without the loss of power? If that's the case then it certainly doesn't sound like the symptoms others have reported after a failed HPFP. I believe the result is very much permanent and topping off the tank would not solve a failed pump.
 

MAXecutive

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 1, 2011
Location
New York
TDI
Jetta VI
When you say that you "topped off the tank with 7 gallons and drove home like nothing ever happened..." Are you saying that it ran completely normal without the loss of power? If that's the case then it certainly doesn't sound like the symptoms others have reported after a failed HPFP. I believe the result is very much permanent and topping off the tank would not solve a failed pump.
It ran normal after I left the side of the road to get to the gas station. I touched 80mph for a bit after refueling and getting in the highway. No stuttering or bogging down. I also sat it traffic for some time using first gear with no gas and the car maintained its 6mph pull at idle with no problems.
 

pete's_TDI

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 12, 2009
Location
Long Island NY
TDI
2014 TDI Jetta sedan Black on Black 6M, VCDS on hand
sounds like you had fuel gel up , or IC icing.
but this sounds more like fuel was at the point of gelling up and when you topped it off solved the problem.
but to be sure i would get the codes scanned from the car to see what was the real issue and why your car went to limp mode. other then that we all speculating on what the issue can be or was.
 

FVWVWF

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 18, 2011
Location
Canada
TDI
Sold - 2012 TDI Highline Manual
But why didn't this happen when I drove the same route two days go in temperatures below 10 degrees. It was 30 last night. Do you have a link to that TSB?
It also depends on the humidity in the air, not always about the cold temps. I've had a few hard starts during warmer winter days.
 

SkeeterMark

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 8, 2013
Location
North Branch, MN
TDI
2013 Jetta TDI 6M
It also depends on the humidity in the air, not always about the cold temps. I've had a few hard starts during warmer winter days.
This^^^
It's more a product of temperatures near or passing freezing, rather than just cold. Here's a couple common situations leading to IC icing:

1. Starting in an above freezing garage, then driving in below freezing temps. This can get the icing started. Then you park, say at work, and it melts (either from engine compartment warmth, or rising temps during the day). Result: water buildup in IC. It may cause a bad start, or come slurping through later.

2. Driving through below freezing conditions (or very near), then parking in your warmer garage. You build up ice, and then melt it down into water again in the garage. Next time out....WATER!

I never had much issue in very cold temps, but the above conditions were common. I got the IC update a few weeks back, and while some say it's not a fix, I've had no problems since.

Then again, it has mainly been just really cold, and not ideal conditions for IC icing, so time will tell
 
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