MK4 Alignment issues

Jim G

Member
Joined
Oct 14, 2022
Location
Carson City NV
TDI
03 Jetta Wagon
Got some new tires and an alignment on Sat. Some of my castor camber settings are still in the red after the alignment. The shop says it's as close as they can get. The shop is new with a new Hunter alignment rack. Are these cars that difficult to align? Doesn't seem right to me. Tried to post a pic of the alignment sheet but couldn't figure it out.
 

Keystoner16

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 23, 2019
Location
Eugene, OR
TDI
2011 Golf TDI 2.0 CR, 2004 Golf TDI 1.9 PD
Only front toe is adjustable on a MK4 from the factory.

Positive caster is built into suspensions for stability as it causes the front wheels to "self center". If the caster angle is not what the factory has specified it will be red on the sheet. As long as it is positive you will likely not notice any issues when driving the car. Caster that is out of spec is also not likely to cause tire wear.
If you are still worried about it start looking for worn suspension components that could be affecting the caster value.
 
Last edited:

454k30

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 20, 2006
Location
Long Beach, CA
TDI
2002 Jetta
There is some wiggle room in the subframe. There is also worn bushings if your subframe and swingarm bushings. Any of these issues can cause castor to be off. Depending on how deep into the red you are, you may be able to loosen and wiggle the subframe to get it into spec. But depending on how far off you are from the spec the effort may not be worth it.
 

Zak99b5

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 30, 2021
Location
Albany NY
TDI
2003 Jetta TDI
The small amount of adjustment where the ball joints mount to the LCAs can affect toe, caster, & camber a little, too.

If your upper strut mounts are squashed, that will play a role too.

But getting a tire shop to adjust anything other than the TREs for toe seems impossible. The rears you can’t adjust at all. Amd they still charge for a 4-wheel alignment.
 

Lug_Nut

TDIClub Enthusiast, Pre-Forum Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 20, 1998
Location
Sterling, MA. USA
TDI
2015 GSW 6M in S trim the other oil burners: 1967 two stroke Sonett 1988 Bolens DGT1700
In the "red", but by how much? and nearly equal left and right?
If the left and right caster and camber measurements can be brought within the same tolerance of each other relative to ideal alignment, leave them alone. e.g.: if ideal caster were specified as 1 degree, +/- .5 degree, and you are at 1.7 degrees on left and 1.6 on the right (+/- .05 degree) that's close enough for me.
Camber can likely be adjusted by the slotted lower ball joint mount to be equal left to right pretty easily, but the caster adjustment by shifting the sub frame is more involved.
.... There is also worn bushings if your subframe and swingarm bushings. ....
The result of worn or soft bushings will affect the dynamic, while driving, capability to maintain alignment. While the car is static on the aligning rack there is no effect greater than the limits of accuracy of the equipment or the technician's skill level wouldn't mask.
 

Zak99b5

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 30, 2021
Location
Albany NY
TDI
2003 Jetta TDI
The result of worn or soft bushings will affect the dynamic, while driving, capability to maintain alignment. While the car is static on the aligning rack there is no effect greater than the limits of accuracy of the equipment or the technician's skill level wouldn't mask.
The lower bushings, yes (except if they're torn, as the rear LCA bushes can be).

But the upper strut mounts being squashed certainly affect alignments. My car had beat Monroe quick struts in it when I bought it. I replaced with new quick struts (as a temporary measure--no longer on the car) without touching either ball joint. My steering wheel went from cocked 30* to the left to go straight to about only 5* off.
 

braddies

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 26, 2021
Location
America
TDI
03 golf ALH
Tried to post a pic of the alignment sheet but couldn't figure it out.
Here's a link to a quick video/screen recording of how to upload a pic to (edit: TDIclub.com servers), then copy the link that goes to the uploaded photo and insert the link into a post
 
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BobnOH

not-a-mechanic
Joined
May 29, 2004
Location
central Ohio
TDI
New Beetle 2003 manual
Or host it here, it will stay forever.
 

snakeye

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2009
Location
Montreal, Canada
TDI
2003 Jetta and Wagon, GLS 5sp
There is some wiggle room in the subframe. There is also worn bushings if your subframe and swingarm bushings. Any of these issues can cause castor to be off. Depending on how deep into the red you are, you may be able to loosen and wiggle the subframe to get it into spec. But depending on how far off you are from the spec the effort may not be worth it.
I'd rule everything else out before touching the subframe, because if the alignment is out of spec due to something else and you decide to move it, you've just created a much bigger problem.

Only front toe is adjustable on a MK4 from the factory.

Positive caster is built into suspensions for stability as it causes the front wheels to "self center". If the caster angle is not what the factory has specified it will be red on the sheet. As long as it is positive you will likely not notice any issues when driving the car. Caster that is out of spec is also not likely to cause tire wear.
If you are still worried about it start looking for worn suspension components that could be affecting the caster value.
That's not entirely accurate. When the subframe was bolted on at the factory, the camber and caster were within specs. If you remove the subframe and simply bolt it back on, there's a big chance you'll throw these numbers off and will also screw up the thrust angle. If i can shift my subframe and note changes with the help of a cheap $20 caliper, then an alignment shop sure as hell can with a $10k hunter machine. Most alignment shops just won't do it cause it's easier to lie. When I asked about adjustments at the ball joint lower bolts, one mechanic told me the hunter software actually says to shift the subframe and says nothing about the ball joints.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
Some alignment facts (from a guy who actually DOES them):

There is no such thing as a "two wheel alignment" on a modern car or truck. That went away some time in the sixties. All alignment machines are "four wheel" units, because they are thrust angle type the not only REQUIRE all four wheels to have the heads mounted and measured, but base the FRONT axle settings off of the REARs. That's why you always start with aligning the rear axle, then move to the front. Even on solid rear axle vehicles.

While there may not be a prescribed procedure for a certain alignment setting, often there are methods to tweak things, and in some cases aftermarket components that can be installed to correct things.

Despite the myth, the rear track-correcting twist beam axles, as well as the non-track-correcting twist beam axles, of FWD VAG products that use them, DO have a minor adjustment possible. That's why the beam mounting brackets are slotted. You CAN loosen and shift the beam a bit to at least lessen or equalize some rear toe. It is not at all difficult to do, especially on an alignment rack... I've done it thousands of times. If the rear camber is way off, the beam is bent. However, if it isn't terribly far off, there are aftermarket shims available for the rear spindles... this is true for a lot of cars. The downside to this of course is that on rear disc brake cars that do not mount the caliper to the spindles directly, and instead mount them to their own dedicated mounted holes on the beam itself, is that once the shim is installed and the spindle geometry is corrected, the caliper may no longer ride square to hold the pads square against the rotor. However usually this difference would be negligible and not have any major impact on brake operation. Some shims also provide additional small shims for the caliper mount, too, to alleviate this issue.

Pic of the rear beam bracket, note the slotted holes:



Commonly available aftermarket shim:

1737719708721.png

On the front, it most certainly IS a prescribed alignment procedure to shift the subframe to equalize toe and/or caster. It's literally right in the alignment machine's instructions... they have pictures and even videos on how to do this, right there displayed on the machine.

Here's a screenshot from our Hunter:



It would seem there are just a LOT of lazy idiots out there working at these dumbass tire and alignment shops that simple can't be bothered to properly do their job. Just know there are a few REAL techs out there that do know how to do it, and are not afraid to do so.
 

Zak99b5

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 30, 2021
Location
Albany NY
TDI
2003 Jetta TDI
And there's the rub--most everyone with the Hunter machine, which allows you to do the job correctly, will only touch the TREs to set toe.

Most people here know about the adjustments possible, but cannot access a fancy rack.

Maybe my buddy who's the facilties manager at a dealership in town can get me in after hours so I could have at it?
 

snakeye

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2009
Location
Montreal, Canada
TDI
2003 Jetta and Wagon, GLS 5sp
Some alignment facts (from a guy who actually DOES them):

There is no such thing as a "two wheel alignment" on a modern car or truck. That went away some time in the sixties. All alignment machines are "four wheel" units, because they are thrust angle type the not only REQUIRE all four wheels to have the heads mounted and measured, but base the FRONT axle settings off of the REARs. That's why you always start with aligning the rear axle, then move to the front. Even on solid rear axle vehicles.

While there may not be a prescribed procedure for a certain alignment setting, often there are methods to tweak things, and in some cases aftermarket components that can be installed to correct things.

Despite the myth, the rear track-correcting twist beam axles, as well as the non-track-correcting twist beam axles, of FWD VAG products that use them, DO have a minor adjustment possible. That's why the beam mounting brackets are slotted. You CAN loosen and shift the beam a bit to at least lessen or equalize some rear toe. It is not at all difficult to do, especially on an alignment rack... I've done it thousands of times. If the rear camber is way off, the beam is bent. However, if it isn't terribly far off, there are aftermarket shims available for the rear spindles... this is true for a lot of cars. The downside to this of course is that on rear disc brake cars that do not mount the caliper to the spindles directly, and instead mount them to their own dedicated mounted holes on the beam itself, is that once the shim is installed and the spindle geometry is corrected, the caliper may no longer ride square to hold the pads square against the rotor. However usually this difference would be negligible and not have any major impact on brake operation. Some shims also provide additional small shims for the caliper mount, too, to alleviate this issue.

Pic of the rear beam bracket, note the slotted holes:



Commonly available aftermarket shim:

View attachment 142044

On the front, it most certainly IS a prescribed alignment procedure to shift the subframe to equalize toe and/or caster. It's literally right in the alignment machine's instructions... they have pictures and even videos on how to do this, right there displayed on the machine.

Here's a screenshot from our Hunter:



It would seem there are just a LOT of lazy idiots out there working at these dumbass tire and alignment shops that simple can't be bothered to properly do their job. Just know there are a few REAL techs out there that do know how to do it, and are not afraid to do so.
Great post, I'm saving this for next time I'm being lied to by a shop, which will probably be never, because my string and eyeball alignment seems better, so I have no reason to pay for an alignment anymore.

Curious why the instructions say to only move the subframe side to side. I've equalized uneven wheelbase by pulling one side forward.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
I always feel that the instructions are for a "perfect" car, that is well within the tolerances of such changes. Not 25+ year old 500k+ mile cars that have endured countless potholes, roadkills, curbs, pedestrians, crashes, tooef, etc. Sometimes you have to concede that the car just isn't straight anymore, and you have to do the best you can.
 
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