Mk1/2 td Turbo water hose lay out questions

JELLOWSUBMARINE

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I know it's not a TDI but I hope this will be the appropriate forum?

I am converting my 1983 VW pickup, n/a 1.6d (with factory a/c) to a mk2 1.9?td k14 & water cooled oil cooler.

Any input on a year/model that may be a direct fitment OR a picture of a flow/hose chart would be great.

Here's what I came up with as a possibility
 

oilhammer

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The A2 had three turbo diesels, all 1.6L. The early one (1985 through early 1986... solid lifter), the middle one (late 1986... hydraulic lifter), and the ECOdiesel (late 1991 and 1992). ME, MF, and 1V engine codes. Canada had more, and in more models, without interruption.

The A3 turbo diesel was Canada only, 1.9L, AAZ.

So which engine do you have? What code is etched on the block? What number is in the back casting?

You may want to do more of the plumbing of how the A1 turbo diesel was laid out. Because things like the heater, radiator, etc. are going to be different.
 
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JELLOWSUBMARINE

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Appreciate the input. I see I was unclear abit. The present engine is the original n/a 1.6d to the 83 pickup. It is a fresh build with a Giles pump and will be used for the conversion. I have a just rebuilt k14 I'm working around. Got most of the major conversion parts set aside

. Now I'm hoping not to have to cobble the hoses piece by piece. It would be easiest to order a particular set from a particular vehicle as in your example of A3
 

oilhammer

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'K14' means nothing to me. What is it off of? What parts do you have? VAG moved the coolant flanges around on different engines' heads over the years. Some cars have heater valves, some don't. Some have a large bypass hose at the back of the water pump housing, some have a small one. Some have an oil cooler, some don't. Some have an expansion tank, some don't. Some have a vent line in the upper hose, some have it in the tank. There are so many different radiator options I can't even recall.... three different widths, tab mount, pin mount, bolt in... the variations just go on and on and on. So finding any all inclusive "kit" isn't at all likely to work for you. Add in A/C, and it gets even worse. Because some A1s actually did leave the factory with it, but many did not... and depending on what dealer or PoE kit was installed depends on what changes were made to the cooling system.

If you get the engine all together, and in the car, and you know what radiator you are going to use, and can take some pictures, I may be able to wade through several decades of ETKA and look and see what I can find for you and at least give you a part number.
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
Oh, also forgot about the whole German or American built stuff, because THAT makes a difference, too. Your Caddy was built here (all ours were), but the more popular TD swap was from an A1 Jetta, which was German (there were US-built Rabbit TDs, too, the '83 and '84 LS, but those were very, very rare.... and most of those oddly enough had power steering!!!)
 

JELLOWSUBMARINE

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The k14 was an internet find. I couldn't get an exact answer to its year of mk2 td origin. The turbo went straight to (Jpop) for confirmation and followed by a rebuild. It should be in my hands shortly. I can get any #'s and pictures needed@rhhat point.

I have the matching td exhaust manifold, with 4 bolt mounting flange and o.e. downpipe, 2 port oil filter housing with sandwich oil cooler. I'm still considering intercooler options

The o.e. oil cooler, and turbo water lines will be nee to be be run. I'm basically interested in where the cooler AND turbo lines plumb and are they input/output sensitive?

I will want to plumb in the present expansion tank? And I'm running the o.e. a/c radiator (if that matters)

I wish I was closer to Missouri, the truck would be a client!
 

oilhammer

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Heh, no it wouldn't... no time for that kind of thing.

The intercooler will probably add an intolerable level of turbo lag. The 1.6TD was already pretty laggy (compared to the TDIs), adding a bunch of volume to the charge air tract will only make it worse.

On the A1 turbo diesels, the oil cooler is tapped into the two smaller hoses on the backside of the water pump housing. The short straight one that is two different sizes on the ends, and the L or hockey stick shaped one that goes up to the flange on the side of the head (side, meaning, where the injectors are).

The one hose is 068-121-053-P, the other has a choice of two, and it likely depends on what size the nipple on the pump housing is. 068-121-058 or with a C suffix.

There is no coolant going to the turbocharger on those, just like a TDI. Only oil. If you have a water-cooled turbo, you'll have to find some other method to deal with that. You *might* be able to use something from the early 1.8t engine (like an AEB engine code, 1998 Passat, for instance) but I doubt it, since those have the actual BLOCK machined and tapped for coolant feed with banjo bolts.

On the A2 turbo diesel, the one oil cooler hose is the same, but the other is completely different, because that one taps into the crossover steel pipe, that wraps around the engine across the top of the transmission, and THAT is completely different, and it has an allowance to clear the front mount that the A2 has that the A1 does not. Pipe is different at the other end, too.

Of course, if you are not using an actual turbo block, you will have no piston oil jets, so the ability to carry the excess heat from the pistons to the oil, and thus to the coolant via the oil cooler, cannot happen... so even having the oil cooler present may not make much difference other than to get the oil WARMER faster on cold days (which is also good). The turbo pistons are also different... one, they have a slot for oil jet clearance, and two they have a different top to lower the CR a bit.

The injectors are also different.

The pump is different, with the extra enrichment plunger on top so when it goes on boost it gets a bit more fuel (the ECOdiesel version is different yet).

And as with the A1, the A2 turbo has no coolant flowing through it.

It sounds to me like you found a turbocharger, and want to cobble it on to a non-turbo engine. It won't work as easily as you think, and given the awful scarcity of parts (especially solid lifter diesel parts.... still unsure exactly what you are working with here), and the relative ease of getting a Canadian AAZ, I think I'd just get the AAZ.

The AAZ makes 75hp stock, and does it with a lower RPM and less stress than the 1.6L which only makes 68hp stock. It also has the benefit of the larger oil pump and galleries and vacuum pump, all the crankshaft improvements, the better MLS head gasket, better timing belt, and (at least for now) parts are still available. Also, VAG continued to make these in Industrial trim even into the TDI era.
 
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JELLOWSUBMARINE

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The intercooler will probably add an intolerable level of turbo lag. The 1.6TD was already pretty laggy (compared to the TDIs), adding a bunch of volume to the charge air tract will only make it worse.
Hopefully I choose the right combo with the low a/r k14? The turbo builder said it should spool up quickly and the port and polished/ceramic coating will add to that also. the best of my knowledge the whole build is focused around low/mid rpm drivability. That's interesting input to guide me in choosing a smaller intercooler size. I never thought about intercooler volume. I was planning 2" piping however on that thought.
[/QUOTE]

There is no coolant going to the turbocharger on those, just like a TDI. Only oil. If you have a water-cooled turbo, you'll have to find some other method to deal with that.
This is an o.e. k14 with the coolant also. This is why I need to figure out how to tie them in.

Of course, if you are not using an actual turbo block,... so even having the oil cooler present may not make much difference other than to get the oil WARMER faster on cold days (which is also good).
Yeah, when the engine was built several years ago, I couldn't find a builder aaz. This is the wifes little truck we've had since 04. Although she's no hot rod, the mk6 JSW TDI 6speed is the standard she does well in. I'm not after the same but it seems that 100 drivable h.p. is realistic. That said the truck is underpowered for today's freeways.

The injectors are also different.
Have you ever messed with the Mercedes "swappable" injectors. I guess they are greater flow and or pressure?


The pump is different, with the extra enrichment plunger on top so when it goes on boost it gets a bit more fuel (the ECOdiesel version is different yet).
Although it's a fresh "giles" rebuilt without the enrichment top, I've been seeing it should be better at keeping pace with the turbo than a Rev limited Original n/a. Fingers crossed. Kind of an eco turbo???

And as with the A1, the A2 turbo has no coolant flowing through it.
Did they run a k03? This k14 has oil plus coolant

It sounds to me like you found a turbocharger, and want to cobble it on to a non-turbo engine. It won't work as easily as you think, and given the awful scarcity of parts (especially solid lifter diesel parts.... still unsure exactly what you are working with here), and the relative ease of getting a Canadian AAZ, I think I'd just get the AAZ.
Yes more or less LOL. I tend to go the extra mile and will do what's needed not to cobble it together. This is the original n/a 1.6d that came in the pickup. 12mm pump and hydraulic (?)
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
Hydraulic lifters came about in mid-'86. So all our A1s (gas and diesel) were solid lifter. Mid-'81 diesels switched to the larger head bolts, early 1.6L (so, early '81) were still the small bolts like the 1.5L used.

But at this point, so many things could have been changed that's why it is so important to know what you are starting with.
 

Vince Waldon

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Just as a datapoint, some Canadian AAZs shipped with a K14 (I had one), it was the preferred turbo at the time as it was bit smaller than the K03 so less lag.

Oil-cooled bearings only, however... no coolant.

OP: your questions may get better answers if you can figure out where this coolant-cooled K14 came from originally?
 

JELLOWSUBMARINE

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Just as a datapoint, some Canadian AAZs shipped with a K14 (I had one), it was the preferred turbo at the time as it was bit smaller than the K03 so less lag.
Yes, fits my overall goal of reasonable power with low end fun factor...

Oil-cooled bearings only, however... no coolant.
I'll post pics as soon as it's delivered. But unless I was snooker we discussed and confirmed that this k14 had both coolant and oil. I have no reason to dought the seller as not only did he offer to ship me the turbo trade for my examination/approval. He shipped it to the builder who confirmed exceptional condition.

OP: your questions may get better answers if you can figure out where this coolant-cooled K14 came from originally?
I'll get any numbers and identity I can when it gets here. The seller just alluded to mk2 td
 

JELLOWSUBMARINE

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However plenty of time for long winded explanations...
Ah, doesn't bother me abit. This guy is a wealth of information and this forum just wouldn't be the same without out his considerate giving. Must all of us have ADD issues here. ☆ Mo' power to 'im.
 

JELLOWSUBMARINE

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Oil-cooled bearings only, however... no coolant.
You are right! Well at least that makes one less complication.
Any input on year model or whatever is appriciated
(y)









 

oilhammer

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That part number goes to a ---701-AX, which is for an AAZ 1.9L engine. It is probably not an ideal choice for the 1.6L.

And I will always make time in my 60+ hr work week for long winded explanations. Haters gonna hate.... whatever.
 

JELLOWSUBMARINE

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That part number goes to a ---701-AX, which is for an AAZ 1.9L engine. It is probably not an ideal choice for the 1.6L.
While maybe not 100% ideal the k14 seemed like a good jumping off point for my objective build. I'm sure I researched and asked questions at nauseum as it seemed to irritate a few members :LOL: I did try to minimize turbo lag when ever possible at the rebuild by using upgraded bearings, exhaust port/polish & ceramic coating the comp. housing side.

I have a BAE aftermarket turbo intake but am considering a pd150. What is your take on either?
 

oilhammer

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I'm still thinking you are at the wrong starting point with an old non-turbo (solid lifter?) 1.6L diesel. An AAZ, or even an AHU (which could be made to be non-electronic, and even DEtuned to not really need an intercooler at all) will bolt right in there and make more power with less stress.

There is a reason so many of those old diesel trucks got gas engines stuck in them. And I love the old non-turbo diesels, I even own the slowest of them all, a diesel Vanagon (that was factory detuned to only 48hp, LOL!!!).
 

JELLOWSUBMARINE

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Youre right Im sure but since I had the motor rebuilt (profesionally $$), The no go point is drawn @ a mild turbo conversion. The truck is washed more than wifey drives it.
 

compu_85

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As a "Well ACTUALLY" data point, the only VW Diesel car that I know of which got a water cooled turbo was the euro market GTD, which got an after run pump, extra thermal switches, and intercooler!

I'd think with enough fuel the 1.6 should be able to spool up the stock turbo from a 1.9TD... the AAZ I drove wasn't laggy at all so perhaps some lag on the 1.6?

But to push that much fuel, you REALLY want to make sure your 1.6 is a true turbo diesel block, not an NA. It won't hold up to the extra heat.

The oil cooler / bypass hose should be the same on all the TD's right? Of course the upper and heater core hoses will be different....

Also, isn't there a special consideration since the Mk1 uses a water valve and shuts off flow to the heater core, whereas the Mk2 + do not? So if a swap isn't done carefully you can end up shutting off the bypass circuit?

-J
 

oilhammer

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The one pickup I rebuilt, I had the injection shop put the larger nozzles from an MB diesel in, I think they did some pump tweaks, too. Then I put the dual down pipe exhaust manifold on it, and the air cleaner/intake manifold assembly with the fat filter element from the later cars... it ran great, even if a bit smokey on full load. But it for sure made more power. Given the split from 52 and 68 from non-turbo to turbo, I'd say it was maybe around 60, squarely in the middle. I put the close ratio 5sp 020 from a GTI in it, it was peppy around town, and was still able to lug my ATV or dirt bike.... sometimes the ATV in the bed and the dirt bike on the little trailer!
 

JELLOWSUBMARINE

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How was the turbo mounted to the dual downpipe? Adapter? I am running the dual presently adapted to 3" exhaust in anticipation for the conversion when I did the exhaust.
 

oilhammer

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Sorry, you misunderstood... or I didn't make it clear... I never put a turbo on it. I just did some quick, easy, cheap modifications within the limits of keeping it naturally aspirated, and I think I got ~50% of the increase in output with 2% of the cost and aggravation. And it didn't seem to have any adverse affect on durability.

And I was running the stock gasser pickup center pipe and muffler.
 

JELLOWSUBMARINE

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Sorry, you misunderstood... or I didn't make it clear... I never put a turbo on it. I just did some quick, easy, cheap modifications within the limits of keeping it naturally aspirated, and I think I got ~50% of the increase in output with 2% of the cost and aggravation. And it didn't seem to have any adverse affect on durability.

And I was running the stock gasser pickup center pipe and muffler.
Ahhh, that was my hope when doing the initial build... Gile$ pump & injectors, 05mm bore/balance, exhaust manifold and 3" exhaust. It runs great and will start 1st time every time. Just expected alittle more poop.

10 years ago then, I was very diesel illiterate and went the direction of milage over power. In hindsight I would do it differently.

At the time I had the one and only old time local VW guru look it over and set I.P. timing. The pump was turned up 1/8 turn and made considerable power difference. It doesn't smoke and I'm sure it could use more but it already idles 1100 rpm min. Would MB injectors be advised? Could it be detrimental in someway?

A gambler has to know when to fold. Maybe I should shelf the project for awhile until I find a td long block? Your advise on the MB injectors along with your n/a example I have to reexamine where my very similar combo failed to give similar results. After all your 50% increase is in the ballpark of my turbo expectations
 

JELLOWSUBMARINE

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I purchased a pd150 intake with welded race pipe as one of my turbo conversion items, so after reevaluating everything I figure I'll do the intake and the Mercedes-Benz injector mod as a pre turbo phase1 and see what that does.

I'm feeling more and more guilty about attempting a turbo on a perfectly good n/a 1.6.

Any td 1.9 long block builders out there for a workable $?
AND
Any information on Mercedes-Benz injector parts
 
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oilhammer

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I never said a 50% increase... I said I think I got about half of the difference between the non-turbo and turbo. 50% increase over 52hp would be a whopping 26hp! No, I got more like 8hp. Which is, again, half of the 16hp gain that the turbo engine gives (52 + 16 = 68).

These engines were, and never will be, anything like a TDI. Which again is why so many got swapped with gassers. The standard issue 1.7L EN engine in the 1981-84 A1 was 78hp.... 10 more than even the turbo diesel. And if you were lucky enough to find one of the big-valve 1.8L JH engines from a GTI, GLI, or Scirocco, those belted out 95hp.... which doesn't sound like a lot, but in those lightweight cars they felt like a guided missile in comparison. And it isn't exactly like those gas engines were pump suckers, either. Sure, they were never going to tag 45 MPGs, but they could get 35+, and they had better all around driveability.

I think the experience many of us had with these older VAG cars was what made the TDI so impressive when it came out. I drove a dealer rep's '96 Passat TDI before they were even hitting the showrooms and I felt like it came from a different planet. And that was the relative to today the somewhat plebeian stodgy B4 sedan with what seems today to be the pretty archaic 1Z engine. Shame by the time the refinement hit its pinnacle the idiots made them verboten. :( Stupid Dieselgate....
 

Owain@malonetuning

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Do you have to keep it mechanical? A 2000-03 ALH swap with nothing but a set of nozzles might make more sense in the long run and still feels sort of "correct" for the period with double the power.

K24 or T3 turbos from 1.6TD with a 1.6 fuel screw, governor mod etc on an AAZ are a lot of fun, but you're piecing things together and unfortunately between AAZ prices (low availability) and parts availability due to their age, it's just not really the best option outside Canada. Getting an ALH running is only a handful of wires and you can still get parts off the shelf plus spare engines/turbos out of junk yards.

Think I'm with oilhammer on this one, either leave it NA with a couple minor mods for originality, or look into a tdi from this century
 

JELLOWSUBMARINE

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OK, great productive input. Takes a few hits to the head to sometimes slow this freight train down. I'm more reassessing this whole thing. I see the gains vrs trouble. I was looking into that German engine importer for a reality check.

Darned if it didn't start the process over again. With the aaz I can use my small fortune of accumulated parts effectively. Now the 1z (ahu?) With mtdi i.p. lonblock should be as bolt over? If so this option will yield highest h.p. but cost 2k-i$h more than the aaz and Direct Injection is finicky with wvo. (Wife's fantasy not really mine).
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
Probably a subject for a different thread, but since you brought it up: WVO.... you really are better off to just set up a biodiesel "plant" in your garage or wherever, and make that, and pour the resultant product into your unmodified car. Over the years, I've seen FAR too many mobile science experiments gone wrong, and/or had to work around and deal with the stinky, greasy, nasty, ant-infested turdboxes and their weirdo hippy owners with unwashed feet than I can count. I've seen far too many diesels, TDIs, along with everything else, including countless old otherwise pristine '70s and '80s diesel Mercedes-Benzes, drug to the scrapper due to WVO nonsense.

I have nothing against biodiesel from waste product. But trying to jam that waste product into the engine is not good. And once you set up a plant, with a reactor to filter/cook/clean/process the WVO into clean, useable biodiesel, and actually SEE all the nasty chunky black-brown sludge leftover that looks like a Wookiee's septic tank contents that you would have otherwise been trying to force through the engine, you'll know you did the right thing.
 

JELLOWSUBMARINE

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Ha, good morning laugh! No hairy armpitted women in my genealogy. Don't get me wrong or let the WVO thing sideline this whole conversation, it's just a passing fun concept. It's been a really productive conversation in helping me focus my build direction. Time to familiarize myself with the ahl as it seems to be the best direction. Meanwhile I think I'll do a set of Mercedes injectors and the pd150 intake to bump up alittle h.p. Do you have a source for the MB injector nozzles. I'll call the local injection shop today also.I'll probably mothball the turbo for now.

Along with a strong possibility of relocating to the Dallas area., I've now opened up a new can of worms now of using another generation tdi. It's all good, I'd rather do it once.
 

JELLOWSUBMARINE

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A 2000-03 ALH swap with nothing but a set of nozzles might make more sense.
Think I'm with oilhammer on this one, either leave it NA with a couple minor mods for originality, or look into a tdi from this century
Thank you guys for the direction, words respected and taken. I've found an alh/auto from an 02 Beetle I'm considering. That leaves the fresh gile pump 1.6 n/a set aside untouched and a less hobbled together project that may ultimately co$t the same? I can no longer do the big work on the truck so I have to consider install cost. This ALH source is directly connected to a a 20 year Sacramento area shop that specializes in Vanagon swaps. I'm looking into the whole package. I guess a tune would be in order.

What are your thoughts on cost and possibilities?

Link to tdi conversion post https://forums.tdiclub.com/index.php?threads/conversion-kit-for-an-02-alh-tdi-into-mk1.523835/
 
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