Miles Before DSG Clutch Replacement - Estimate or Actual

[gmcjetpilot]

How many miles do you all think the DSG clutch Pak will last?
Anyone wear out their DSG clutch yet? Yes, miles
Related note how many DMF issues on the DSG vs. Manual.

The fact it is dual clutch, a multi layer pack it should last a long time,
provided driving mostly highway and not stop and go. There is friction
plate material that will wear.

 

[South Coast Guy]

Do a search here and see if anyone has posted anything about a DSG clutch failure.

 

[jonferns]

205K on my '06 and no issues with the clutches. Replaced the DMF at about 200K

 

[ATR]

Dmf is the week spot on both manual and DSG transmissions. Most of the time the Dmf needs replaced long before the clutches do.

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

FWIW we have almost zero demand for DSG clutches. They seem to last pretty well. Flywheels? That's another story.

 

[ezshift5]

...sure agree with 'brakes are cheaper than a clutch'......................

ez

 

[redbarron55]

My DSG 2009 DSG Sportwagen has towed etc and the flywheel was replaces at 240,000 miles, but I have noticed not one problem with the DSG or the clutches.
I think that the dual clutches live a fairly easy life and since they are wet they will last a long time.
Even when towing the gearing is so low in first and the engine and the transmission are matched so closely in speed along with the action of the oil cushioning and cooling the discs I think they are good to go for the long haul. I wouldn't waste much time worrying about them. The DMF is another story and I think that idling is as big a problem as driving for it.
Oilhammer has a=said he would worry more about Canada attacking the US than the DSG transmission and I this I agree with him.
I also think that all of the worry about towing with the DSG is also unwarranted.
Of course if you go out of your way to Raw-Dog the car then you can generate problems with any part of it!
I think to some extent this a the reason for some of the problems we see here.
Not included it that observation are the HPFP, DMF. A/C, Sunroof, etc. that are unrelated to driving stress, but are still a PITA.

 

[Ol'Rattler]

...sure agree with 'brakes are cheaper than a clutch'......................

ez

Just about the stupidest statement I have ever heard. Downshifting causes close to Zero wear on a clutch, so the idea that coasting in neutral and using the brakes to slow down is completely bogus as far as clutch wear is concerned.

 

[oilhammer]

I've replaced a couple that were worn to the point there was slippage, and the M-unit knew it. 1/4 million + mile cars, though.

I've also had to replace the clutches because the input shaft was so beat up from the DMF splines stripping out. But those were not slipping.

I have also had to replace them due to the clutch cover cracking and spewing fluid out the bellhousing.

You'll likely have to replace the DMF a couple times before the clutches actually wear out, if they ever really do.

Most will last a very, very long time.

 

[Ol'Rattler]

the OH"s word does carry a lot of weight around here. Certainly a lot more that my feeble attempts at the truth.............

 

[takis56]

I just replaced mine under 60,000 miles 2011 tdi. Under warranty but the dealer charged me $368 +tax for service it first and replace the fuel filter as it was told from the corporate. The only thing I didn't pay was the clutch. They didn't do any flywheel replacement.

 

[Teamzarz]

Necro bump. I know my car is a 2009 so technically an A5 but anyway.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=492429

Apparently VW thinks the lifetime on clutches is less than the 160k i have on my car because they are refusing to fix it under a warranty that I have confirmed does cover my transmission and MU. I was told that the warranty is written in a vague manner so it is at their discretion as to what they will cover in the transmission as it is related to the extended emissions warranty.

So there you have it, clutches are only good for 163281 miles.

 

[Terry270]

250k miles now and it has started to chatter only on cold startup then goes away at operating temp. I can't believe it's lated this long since it's been deleted and tuned since 75k miles and cr170 since 200k

 

[Geordi]

Necro bump. I know my car is a 2009 so technically an A5 but anyway.
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=492429
Apparently VW thinks the lifetime on clutches is less than the 160k i have on my car because they are refusing to fix it under a warranty that I have confirmed does cover my transmission and MU. I was told that the warranty is written in a vague manner so it is at their discretion as to what they will cover in the transmission as it is related to the extended emissions warranty.
So there you have it, clutches are only good for 163281 miles.

I've read their new warranty and they specifically disclaim the entire transmission. There's nothing vague about it. It says the warranty covers anything that causes the MIL to illuminate, OTHER than the transmission.
Sorry that they chose to do this, but it wasn't much of a surprise.

They have never wanted to cover anything on the transmissions and if they could sell cars without any warranty at all - they would. This extended warranty is being forced on them by the settlement, or we would ALL be completely out of luck.

 

[Ol'Rattler]

...sure agree with 'brakes are cheaper than a clutch'......................
ez

That is too funny. If you could somehow never have to take off from a stop a clutch would last about a million miles even with down shifting.

Torching your brakes by not down shifting and coasting in neutral up to stops is not saving any wear on a clutch.

 

[Teamzarz]

I've read their new warranty and they specifically disclaim the entire transmission. There's nothing vague about it. It says the warranty covers anything that causes the MIL to illuminate, OTHER than the transmission.
Sorry that they chose to do this, but it wasn't much of a surprise.
They have never wanted to cover anything on the transmissions and if they could sell cars without any warranty at all - they would. This extended warranty is being forced on them by the settlement, or we would ALL be completely out of luck.

Sorry for the double necro bump.

Geordi, can you link me to the newest warranty info where it says that for a 2009 JSW? Because specifically for the 2009 model year JSW my transmission MU and transmission ARE covered. I verified this through my VIN with corporate.

 

[Geordi]

Run your VIN here, and it should give you the pamphlet that VW is sending out with the modified cars.

https://www.vwdiesellookup.com/

They specifically exclude the transmission from anything that is covered by the OBD detection system and also covered by the warranty. If you have a CPO warranty, that is different.

 

[Teamzarz]

Run your VIN here, and it should give you the pamphlet that VW is sending out with the modified cars.

https://www.vwdiesellookup.com/

They specifically exclude the transmission from anything that is covered by the OBD detection system and also covered by the warranty. If you have a CPO warranty, that is different.

And see that's what I thought until I saw the Canadian warranty card where it states that 2009 Jetta Sportwagens with the DSG had coverage and look at the verbage.

https://owners.vwmodels.ca/pdf/VW_2L%20Gen%201_v2_CAN%20EN_FINAL.pdf

So I had corporate look into it and my car IS COVERED (despite being in the US) same as what is printed on the Canadian warranty sheet.

I asked them specifically if my transmission and mechatronic unit is covered and I was told that it was because the 2009 model year receives some update to the software that controls the mech unit on certain VINs.

My car was one of those cars.

The words printed say the transmission and transmission mechatronic unit. I figured the clutch packs were part of the transmission but they don't agree.

 

[Geordi]

They will agree to anything that seems to make the customer happy... As long as it doesn't cost them any money.

The instant it will cost them a nickel, they are going to fight to the death.

Of course the clutches are part of the transmission - that IS the transmission! What are they "covering" then... Just the outer casing? Oh wait - they designed the car with a very low clearance and only a PLASTIC protector for the transmission pan... So nope, can't cover that! Might actually need to spend money when it is a design flaw! (All this is sarcasm, if that's not obvious)

Really. They won't cover the FUEL SYSTEM when the high pressure pump fails internally, b/c of their poor design - they blame the end user first, in EVERY case I've read about. The user has to fight with them to get them to cover anything, meanwhile being deprived of the car that they (often) are still paying on. Warranties are only as good as the company willing to stand behind them. Car manufacturers are in the business of selling new cars, not fixing the ones they already sold. The warranty is just a means to calm people into trusting them, and buying the car.

You are just about always better off doing the work yourself.

 

[Teamzarz]

I have fought them on numerous things with this car and got them to cover every single thing, except this thing. So I really can't complain.
Long before the scandal they covered a seat replacement and seat warmer that tried to burn my wife's butt off. Had a free loaner Tiguan for 51 days, 5k worth of work, no charge.

They covered a manifold replacement so I could get my emissions fix when I complained that the code thrown could be fixed with a 30 dollar part and 10 minutes work.

2 weeks post fix threw a code and I complained that it was fix related. They covered replacement of heater core and all related piping through the firewall. Had 4 different free loaners for that and almost 2 months in the shop. No charge.

I think they were tired of shoving money into a 10 year old car.

Then Fields VW lost my belly pan and threw a massive fit when I told them their techs forgot to put it back on. They couldn't be bothered to find it or track down what happened. I complained to corporate. They gave me a new pan and bolts then told me to find a new dealership.

I can't really complain about the clutches but I did anyway because I'm irreverent and silly.

 

[Sciroccodriver@yahoo.com]

Then Fields VW lost my belly pan and threw a massive fit when I told them their techs forgot to put it back on. They couldn't be bothered to find it or track down what happened. I complained to corporate. They gave me a new pan and bolts then told me to find a new dealership.

I can't really complain about the clutches but I did anyway because I'm irreverent and silly.

Hahahaha Fields. So you had Sarah from VWofA tell you the same thing huh? Go find a different dealer. They SUCK. I’m in Palm Coast and even the good techs there know they’re being held back by that place. I’m going to O’Steen for now. They fixed what Fields couldn’t/wouldn’t.

 

[Geordi]

If you find yourself on the South East coast of Florida, stay away from Gunther in Ft Lauderdale or Coconut Creek.

They can't find their butts with both hands and a flashlight!

I was "encouraged" to find another dealer after declining a non-warranty repair of the entire fuel pump (for $3500) on my 01 Jetta TDI... For a code for the fuel temp sensor. A $15 resistor that they sold me at THEIR OWN PARTS COUNTER (while they were finding my car even), they insisted that their "guided fault finding" system told them that the ONLY WAY to fix this was replacing the entire pump.

Of course that was bogus, and I told them so - and said no thanks on the "repair" since I drove the car here, I'd like to just drive it home then. They brought it around and I signed the repair-declined paper... The next time I went in, they tried telling me I owed them $250 for their "diagnostics" and when I questioned WHY would I have been handed back my car and keys (and the copy of the paper that I had signed in their system was conveniently "lost" and they didn't give me a copy but it did say $0 due)... That was when they decided I would be better at another dealer.

Yeah... Me myself and I incorporated. I haven't (willingly) left a car at a dealership since. The amount of screwed up repairs on my cars has also dropped significantly!

 

[Teamzarz]

Hahahaha Fields. So you had Sarah from VWofA tell you the same thing huh? Go find a different dealer. They SUCK. I’m in Palm Coast and even the good techs there know they’re being held back by that place. I’m going to O’Steen for now. They fixed what Fields couldn’t/wouldn’t.

YES!!! Sarah! She is clueless. I was trying to reach out to Borg Warner so they could tell me from their testing how long the engineered the clutches to last so I could email her some information!

You should read my email chain in my other thread with her.

 

[nicholasn]

How many miles do you all think the DSG clutch Pak will last?
Anyone wear out their DSG clutch yet? Yes, miles
Related note how many DMF issues on the DSG vs. Manual.

The fact it is dual clutch, a multi layer pack it should last a long time,
provided driving mostly highway and not stop and go. There is friction
plate material that will wear.

The dual mass flywheel seized in my 6MT GTI a little over a year ago (at about 200k miles). Clutch disk had plenty of life left on it, but I replaced it since I had the transmission out already.

Just about the stupidest statement I have ever heard. Downshifting causes close to Zero wear on a clutch, so the idea that coasting in neutral and using the brakes to slow down is completely bogus as far as clutch wear is concerned.

Only if done properly through rev-matching. If you push in the clutch, downshift, and then let the clutch out without matching the engine speed to the transmission speed, the engine will be spinning much slower than the transmission, and the clutch disk will have to take up all of the slack. It is true that it will slow down the car, but it wears out your clutch much more rapidly than using your brakes does (which are much easier to replace than clutches). Also, if you're driving spiritedly, downshifting without rev-matching will upset the balance of the car.

 

[97B4TDi]

Only if done properly through rev-matching. If you push in the clutch, downshift, and then let the clutch out without matching the engine speed to the transmission speed, the engine will be spinning much slower than the transmission, and the clutch disk will have to take up all of the slack. It is true that it will slow down the car, but it wears out your clutch much more rapidly than using your brakes does (which are much easier to replace than clutches). Also, if you're driving spiritedly, downshifting without rev-matching will upset the balance of the car.

This is much more applicable to a dry clutch system. The Wet Clutch systems in our DSG transmissions soak up a lot of the "slack" with ease compared to a dry clutch. They're not bullet-proof but being submerged in lubrication fluid helps.

 

[InfoSec]

That is too funny. If you could somehow never have to take off from a stop a clutch would last about a million miles even with down shifting.

Torching your brakes by not down shifting and coasting in neutral up to stops is not saving any wear on a clutch.

You must be looking for a fight with those type of inflammatory comments, which were so not called for... Many people coast in neutral for a number of reasons. Brakes ARE cheaper than clutches, which was his point.

 

[nicholasn]

This is much more applicable to a dry clutch system. The Wet Clutch systems in our DSG transmissions soak up a lot of the "slack" with ease compared to a dry clutch. They're not bullet-proof but being submerged in lubrication fluid helps.

I'm not quite as familiar with DCTs, but I know that they do automatically match revs when downshifting (you can hear the engine suddenly spin a bit faster when it drops a gear). If it didn't do that, you would feel a jolt each time it downshifted because the engine and transmission would be spinning at different speeds. I think upshifting actually causes more clutch wear in DCTs than downshifting, because the engine speed doesn't fall nearly as quickly as the transmission shifts, so some slippage occurs (especially during hard acceleration). However, since everything is computer controlled, it is optimized to provide longevity while also enhancing smoothness and efficiency, whereas in manual transmissions those things have to be learned by the driver.

 

[mickyTDI]

Left my Passat bitdi 240bhp in for a flywheel replacement and dsg oil change. On inspection they found the clutch pack worn. My car uses the DQ500 box. Mileage 160,000 miles. It’s been remapped since new(290bhp) so i don’t think the clutch life too bad.

 

[Offrder]

Necro bumping the necro bump... 164k been having chatter in neutral since around 110k (about 13 months ago). Its since gotten louder and noticing delayed engaugement from stopped to accelerating.. are there any other signs i should be looking for that its due for replacement? Ive changed 100s of manual clutches working at dealerships, never dealt with DSG trans/clutches before

 

[lemoncurd]

Necro bumping the necro bump... 164k been having chatter in neutral since around 110k (about 13 months ago). Its since gotten louder and noticing delayed engaugement from stopped to accelerating.. are there any other signs i should be looking for that its due for replacement? Ive changed 100s of manual clutches working at dealerships, never dealt with DSG trans/clutches before

not all of your listed symptoms match a failed clutch.

clatter at idle in any gear indicates DMF failure.
it can also explain the weird engagement / disengagement behavior.

another question before jumping to DSG clutch/mech failure, has the DSG service been done?
also, is the DSG tuned?

these DSG wet-clutches can last for a long long time, even when abused. i personally have >255k miles on my original clutch pack. >40k of that has been with a big turbo making 460nm of torque. more than 100k before THAT was on a stage 2 tune (ECU+DSG)

also worth mentioning: issues with engagement / disengagement dont spell out clutch issues if everything else checks out (tune + maintenance + DMF), it could be the mechatronics unit itself.


now, onto replacing the DSG clutch. comparing it to a manual will not fly here. you need a special DSG clutch placement tool to measure the backlash / play of the clutch pack with a machinist dial indicator.
once you get that measurement, you select the correct shim(washer) thickness to install with the clutchpack.

theres some youtube video's out there explaining this stuff.

if you dont want to deal with the whole adjustment procedure, you COULD just buy the friction / steel plates and open the clutch pack + replace the clutch material. this lets you just reuse the current clutch basket and therefore clutch shim(washer)
though i will note, this route has a much higher likelyhood of not working correctly since you may not install the new components correctly. with due diligence and taking your time, it should be feasible.