Midline Performance Upgrade Options

[JHands]

Greetings. Coming to the 2009 JSW from the ALH platform, it seems there are a lot less options as far as performance upgrade levels goes. The 09 I bought has some oil coming from the turbo area...and is likely going to require replacement. I negotiated it in the price. The car is already deleted and tuned with a malone stage 2. Factory clutch 162k.

I'd like to upgrade the turbo at replacement, likely to the CR170. At this point, I'll need a new clutch shortly thereafter as the factory one is still in. As far as the retune goes, I am probably going to try a different tuner out that a friend has had great experience with on his BEW.

Any recommendations on clutches? I'd like to max out what the CR170 can do with stock internals. I'm not trying to turn this into a race car, just a tastefully modded car with some pep and good fuel economy - the equivalent to my ALH wagon with a VNT17 and PP764's and a 3 Bar MAP, plus tune.

Any tips for this JSW newb are appreciated.

 

[PRY4SNO]

Curious what tune you're considering, and why you're not sticking with Malone? They're about as good as it gets, doesn't seem like a necessary thing to change...

Water methanol injection would probably be worthwhile. Neuspeed makes and AC underdrive pulley that's not expensive. Not too sure on the clutch people tend to prefer, but I'll be watching as I'm interested to know that myself and someone else will likely chime in pretty soon.

 

[90_zeros]

^+1 on the water/meth injection. That's your best, yet most expensive, route for longevity on stock internals, with a significant performance bump if your tuner can work with it. CP3 pumps are good for longevity and more power. I'm on the verge of clutch replacement as well, so can't help there, sorry. I can say it really does basically come down to whether you want to retain the factory DMF or go to a SMF kit. NVH vs. holding power.

 

[Wilkins]

^ factory DMF or go to a SMF kit. NVH vs. holding power.

I’m not aware of anyone who has not destroyed their syncro’s with a SMF. Apparently they are cast iron and shatter from the added vibration. Only transmission which uses them...

 

[90_zeros]

I’m not aware of anyone who has not destroyed their syncro’s with a SMF. Apparently they are cast iron and shatter from the added vibration. Only transmission which uses them...

This is certainly something to keep in mind, but there are plenty of people running SMF kits on TDI cars. It's best to research and make the decision for one's self. Some experts claim that doesn't happen, other's claim it can. To say that it happens to all cars is 100% hyperbole though.

EDIT: forgot to mention, modern SMF kits are available with flywheels that weigh in excess of 30#, so dampening is not much of an issue nowadays

 

[Diesl]

How about gas (propane or natural gas) injection? At the Geneva car show a few years ago there was a company selling gas conversions (add-ons, really), and I talked a bit with a guy at the booth. Apparently the TDI can also run on gas plus diesel at the same time, for more power (which is not the selling point for these conversion kits). With the conversion/add-on, you put the gas (propane/natural gas) tank in the spare wheel well, and keep the ability to run on diesel.

 

[90_zeros]

How about gas (propane or natural gas) injection? At the Geneva car show a few years ago there was a company selling gas conversions (add-ons, really), and I talked a bit with a guy at the booth. Apparently the TDI can also run on gas plus diesel at the same time, for more power (which is not the selling point for these conversion kits). With the conversion/add-on, you put the gas (propane/natural gas) tank in the spare wheel well, and keep the ability to run on diesel.

I'd be interested to see the results of this (from behind a blast shield) if someone attempted it. If you're going to use propane in a compression ignited environment, you're at about double the static compression ratio already. Careful management could get you more power, but I highly doubt you could run a TDI on pure gas without new pistons, at a minimum (EDIT: to clarify, I know you didn't suggest this, just thinking out loud). Hybrid would be ideal, but then you also have the suffocation risk while driving down the highway. Water/meth is much more controllable and predictable

 

[Diesl]

It's a commercial product.

 

[90_zeros]

It's a commercial product.

You mean a propane injection kit? Yeah, you're definitely going to be doing some rigging and tweaking, just as you would with water/meth, but if there is a plug and play kit for our CR cars I'd be interested in seeing it.
The difference, to me personally, would be documentation and overall safety for a daily driver. With both, we're just trying to lower EGTs and increase fueling in different ways.

OP, to more directly answer your clutch question, I will tell you that I personally, after doing my own research am ok with SMF kits. The South Bend Stage3 SMF kit is what I plan to install, alongside a wavetrac LSD. I encourage everyone to research for themselves though, as always.

More generally, to your question about maxing the CR170, the CR140 is fundamentally bottlenecked by:
-Fuel delivery
-Turbo
-Restrictive head ports
-Bottom End/Block

While not perfectly accurate, the above is the general "order" in which you will run in to problems. Your factory turbo can see some gains with higher rail pressure and increased liter per hour rating, technically. Most people seem happy with slightly underfueled cars though from my impressions, and so the cost of the mod scares people away despite it being, essentially, the first performance mod any CR140 owner should do in my opinion.

Since you're already tuned, I would do this if I were you:
1. Verify state of turbo (ok = keep, bad = upgrade) We'll assume it's bad.
2. CP3 Pump and retune to stage 3
3. Install Clutch and LSD of preference
4. Water injection for MPGs and EGTs, either tuned for store bought blue washer fluid, or pure water. Wouldn't get into High meth mixes that are not found locally

That's probably the ragged edge of what you want for a daily driver. Add suspension, tires, and comfort mods to taste. Beyond that, you can:
5. Take advantage of new fueling, lower EGTs, and traction to increase fueling even further via injectors

Beyond THAT, you're porting the head at a bare minimum. Hope my Asperger's is of service haha

 

[CleverUserName]

An early ‘09 should have brass synchros and may not. CR TDIs generally don’t tolerate SMF conversions but you may be able to do it with brass. If you attempt it, make sure to pair it with a Whitbread, INA or Kerma fluidampr.

if you do the CR170 then Sachs makes a performance DMF and clutch kit which can handle the extra power. Darkside sells them. The DMF, clutch kit and fluidampr will be about $1800 combined.

Many on here have tried SMFs with CRs but as far as I know, nobody has done it without breaking synchros. I don’t know why anybody would recommend it based on the numerous threads archived on here.

 

[90_zeros]

An early ‘09 should have brass synchros and may not. CR TDIs generally don’t tolerate SMF conversions but you may be able to do it with brass. If you attempt it, make sure to pair it with a Whitbread, INA or Kerma fluidampr.

if you do the CR170 then Sachs makes a performance DMF and clutch kit which can handle the extra power. Darkside sells them. The DMF, clutch kit and fluidampr will be about $1800 combined.

Many on here have tried SMFs with CRs but as far as I know, nobody has done it without breaking synchros. I don’t know why anybody would recommend it based on the numerous threads archived on here.

Mainly because it's simply not reality. You're referring to half a dozen people on a low traffic forum who had some problems. Consider what you're even saying. How do synchros "break"? At what point in your driving are you applying direct on-torque stress on your synchro? Are you guys thinking of the shifter forks, maybe? If you are lingering in partial mesh between gears, you have a much more serious problem than dampening. There's a huge mk6 tdi community on reddit, and many Scandinavian forums. SMFs are nothing new in the CR world, I assure you.

 

[oilhammer]

There are quite a few reports of the 6sp bolted to TDIs not playing nice with a one piece flywheel. Cannot comment on overseas options, as they have far more variety than we ever did. I am specifically talking about CBEA and CJAA engines. It would seem odd, but it is hardly an isolated event.

 

[CleverUserName]

Mainly because it's simply not reality. You're referring to half a dozen people on a low traffic forum who had some problems. Consider what you're even saying. How do synchros "break"? At what point in your driving are you applying direct on-torque stress on your synchro? Are you guys thinking of the shifter forks, maybe? If you are lingering in partial mesh between gears, you have a much more serious problem than dampening. There's a huge mk6 tdi community on reddit, and many Scandinavian forums. SMFs are nothing new in the CR world, I assure you.

Alright LOL, just ignore us and the numerous threads posted on here and do it! We like to see carnage. Nobody who has posted on here has been successful running a CR170 with an SMF. Ironically, you haven’t done it either...

I have a 2010 JSW that is being built now with a CP3 and CR170 w/ darkside intercooler. It'll have the Sachs SRE w/ DMF and fluidampr to protect my transmission. I don’t want to replace my transmission because I listened to an “expert” like yourself or ignored the data archived on Fred’s.

 

[90_zeros]

Alright LOL, just ignore us and the numerous threads posted on here and do it! We like to see carnage. Nobody who has posted on here has been successful running a CR170 with an SMF. Ironically, you haven’t done it either...

I have a 2010 JSW that is being built now with a CP3 and CR170 w/ darkside intercooler. It'll have the Sachs SRE w/ DMF and fluidampr to protect my transmission. I don’t want to replace my transmission because I listened to an “expert” like yourself or ignored the data archived on Fred’s.

You obviously don't know me well because I always recommend people do their own research. I'm sorry that you think this website is the only resource for these cars, you are surely being limited by low volumes of information, and..ahem... most of the "archives" on this site are pre buyback. Anybody who cared about these cars learned from the Skoda community and from the UK diesel guys while these cars sat in warehouses by the hundreds of thousands in the US and nobody cared. So yeah, grandpa, maybe should get with the times. Literally explain to me how a synchro could be damaged if you were in neutral or in gear. Ryan alone is a walking TDI repair manual, and you should check out his vlogs

Edit: btw, I haven't done it because I'm skipping the cr170 and going custom manifold. Why you think a cr170 would be any different an experience with smf is beyond me, but am happy to learn if you can point me to all these threads about SMFs and synchros.

 

[CleverUserName]

So you’re basically telling me ignore the numerous threads on here from people with CJAA/02Q that had an SMF destroy their transmission? I should listen to you instead because you follow EU forums about VAG cars which have different drivetrains?

I guess I’m a grandpa for having common sense. LOL.

Have you noticed how often you see low mileage SMF kits for CRs in the marketplace? I’m guessing there was some effect(s) that were undesirable from this modification. I suppose, I should also ignore this “coincidence” and follow your advice?

This website has a search function. A Grandpa like myself shouldn’t need to teach you how use it.

You obviously don't know me well because I always recommend people do their own research. I'm sorry that you think this website is the only resource for these cars, you are surely being limited by low volumes of information, and..ahem... most of the "archives" on this site are pre buyback. Anybody who cared about these cars learned from the Skoda community and from the UK diesel guys while these cars sat in warehouses by the hundreds of thousands in the US and nobody cared. So yeah, grandpa, maybe should get with the times. Literally explain to me how a synchro could be damaged if you were in neutral or in gear. Ryan alone is a walking TDI repair manual, and you should check out his vlogs

Edit: btw, I haven't done it because I'm skipping the cr170 and going custom manifold. Why you think a cr170 would be any different an experience with smf is beyond me, but am happy to learn if you can point me to all these threads about SMFs and synchros.

 

[oilhammer]

There is actually a new thread just posted today of someone selling one after only 10k miles (and going back to a DMF).

 

[90_zeros]

So you’re basically telling me ignore the numerous threads on here from people with CJAA/02Q that had an SMF destroy their transmission? I should listen to you instead because you follow EU forums about VAG cars which have different drivetrains?

I guess I’m a grandpa for having common sense. LOL.

Have you noticed how often you see low mileage SMF kits for CRs in the marketplace? I’m guessing there was some effect(s) that were undesirable from this modification. I suppose, I should also ignore this “coincidence” and follow your advice?

This website has a search function. A Grandpa like myself shouldn’t need to teach you how use it.

No, again, I'm trying to prevent you from misleading the OP into thinking YOU are an expert here to just be believed. That's what you would have him do, correct? OP should research all options and come to their own conclusions. I want the OP to call BS on both of us and look it up. I only tell him what I PERSONALLY am comfortable with, and show him the options that I am aware of

I don't see this sea of threads about broken synchros, which now you have shifted the goal posts to say 02Qs in general. My goal is to cut through this dogmatic crap that is plaguing the CR community, and also to get us past the massive paywall in North American CR info overall.

 

[90_zeros]

There is actually a new thread just posted today of someone selling one after only 10k miles (and going back to a DMF).

Fair enough, but there are also those that don't like a BFI stage 1 insert. That doesn't mean it's breaking anything.

 

[CleverUserName]

I actually informed the OP that he may be fine with a SMF because early ‘09 cars were outfitted with brass synchros. Combined with a $350 fluidamper from Whitbread would be cheap insurance compared to an R&R and replacement 02Q.

I wouldn’t call that misleading, but apparently you do...

It literally took 1 minute to find this post LOL and Ryanp confirms what we've been saying but you're too dense and argumentative to accept. https://forums.tdiclub.com/index.php?threads/clutch-and-lsd-possibly.465162/#post-5123005

No, again, I'm trying to prevent you from misleading the OP into thinking YOU are an expert here to just be believed. That's what you would have him do, correct? OP should research all options and come to their own conclusions. I want the OP to call BS on both of us and look it up. I only tell him what I PERSONALLY am comfortable with, and show him the options that I am aware of

I don't see this sea of threads about broken synchros, which now you have shifted the goal posts to say 02Qs in general. My goal is to cut through this dogmatic crap that is plaguing the CR community, and also to get us past the massive paywall in North American CR info overall.

 

[90_zeros]

I actually informed the OP that he may be fine with a SMF because early ‘09 cars were outfitted with brass synchros. Combined with a $350 fluidamper from Whitbread would be cheap insurance compared to an R&R and replacement 02Q.

I wouldn’t call that misleading, but apparently you do...

It literally took 1 minute to find this post LOL and Ryanp confirms what we've been saying but you're too dense and argumentative to accept. https://forums.tdiclub.com/index.php?threads/clutch-and-lsd-possibly.465162/#post-5123005

and it literally took 1 minute to prove MY point, which is that you're relying on outdated info. Right there at the bottom

Darkside Billet Single Mass Flywheel (SMF) & Clutch Kit for VW 02Q 6 Speed

The Organic Disc will give a stock like bite, with a heavier pedal feel due to the upgraded Pressure Plate. This makes it a good Daily use setup as well as occasional Track use, Here at Darkside Developments we only own and work with TDIs, so you can be assured that you are dealing with experts...

www.darksidedevelopments.co.uk

"PLEASE NOTE - As with most of the Single Mass Flywheel Kits, there will be some noise at low RPMs and at idle. This is completely normal and will not damage your gearbox or engine"

 

[hevster1]

I guess I need to take pictures of the blown synchros huh? Gimme a few days.

 

[JHands]

I ended up going with the SB Stage 2 Endurance with Luk DMF and Wavetrac LSD. Mated with a CR170, a Malone stage 3, GLI Springs, Couldn’t be happier. Funnest car I’ve ever spent under 10k on. Hands down.