MFA Cluster Conversion! Pictures!!!!

Vhunter

Veteran Member
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Jan 31, 2000
Location
NE USA
TDI
99.5 silver Jetta 5spd TDI
No, I have not gotten it yet. It sounds like it should be here sometime after Thanksgiving day.

Just a lot of stuff going on at this time of year, and at the rate I go, I probably won't get it installed until after Christmas...



Drive ON!
 

KOMET155

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Exit 9 - you from joisey?
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VW komet
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Vhunter:
No, I have not gotten it yet. It sounds like it should be here sometime after Thanksgiving day.<hr></blockquote>

Hello everyone:

if your name is Thomasz, Arnold, Charles or Jared, your cluster arrived friday night. I will start emailing individuals for balances due shortly...
 

Kyanoti

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Jan 22, 2000
Location
Ashland, OR, USA
TDI
00 Golf GL, silver
This is quite an amazing topic to read. A few months ago I undertook a project toward the same end, but the information I obtained indicated nothing but failure. My primary question is: did the instrument cluster part change for the '02 MY? My understanding was that the cluster functioned as a part of the immobilizer, and as such was very vehicle specific; in fact, the part needed to have custom manufacturing done, and could not be returned to the factory even if unopened for anything but defect. There were indeed multitudes of different part numbers for different clusters, I would estimate well over a dozen for each region. If there is a new, single cluster design (perhaps one for manuals and another for automatics, or with/without the "sporty" design), will this work with pre-02 models, without the "Immobilizer III system"? I guess we will find out when this first batch receives and installs theirs.

Regardless, I applaud KOMET155 for his work. Joe, if this works as it looks to be, in my mind you'll be a TDI hall-of-famer. I also want to recognize SVTWEB for his willing to fund the experiment. Even if this mod won't work for those with older cars, we might know now that all future TDIs can have a MFA. Wonderful.
 

GLENNI

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Sep 21, 2001
Location
northern ireland
TDI
Golf GTTDI -- 2000 -- Canyon Red
Thats the same thing I have been told by my dealer, but I think it`s a load of old rubbish. Yes the cluster does incorporate the immobiliser3 and mine`s immob2 but the differance seems to be in how the S.K.C. is imported into the unit either automaticaly from ECU or by manually aligning ECU and cluster. If anyone knows if this is right and therefore the cluster is, or at least should be able to be used in an immobiliser2 equipted car please let me and all members interested in this conversion know so they can at least take a more educated decision to buy and fit the cluster
thanks
Glenn

[ December 05, 2001: Message edited by: GLENNI ]</p>
 

weedeater

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Mar 17, 2001
Location
Reston, VA
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Jetta, 2001, Baltic Green
Sounds to me like VW got tired of tracking all the different part numbers and consolidated them into just a few types. Seems they're compatable with 99.5 onward...
 

Vhunter

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Jan 31, 2000
Location
NE USA
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99.5 silver Jetta 5spd TDI
Checking the e-mail every day now.. haven't seen anything yet.. Just wondering if I might have missed it?


Drive ON!
 

tadc

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Joined
Apr 13, 2001
Location
Stumptown
TDI
Golf GLS TDI, '01, Black
Okay, I may have located an MFA speedo cluster from an A4 Jetta VR6. In order to put this badboy in my car, does it need to have fewer miles than my current cluster? I think I remember reading that the mileage can be set forward but not back?
 

Danof L.I.N.Y.

Active member
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May 25, 2001
Location
New York NY
I followed the thread about the installation. I have a '96 Passat TDI with a cluster that had its gauges either die or peg. A replacement (Re-built) from the staler is 278+old cluster+TAX) plus more for installation and Milage input.
Those pics sure looked slicker then snot. Do they have replacements for the older TDI's, Passats 96-97 and 98 Jettas?

dan
 

Kyanoti

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Jan 22, 2000
Location
Ashland, OR, USA
TDI
00 Golf GL, silver
tadc-- My understanding is that with A4 clusters, you can set the odo ahead once and only once, and only then if you have very few miles (something like less than 50--but maybe its 5). From what I understand, there shouldn't be any problems if the mileage isn't accurate in terms of making the thing run. OTOH, my impression is that there will be problems with the immobilizer system, on the order of being able to start and run your engine for seconds at a time. Now, the way I look at it, the immobilizer may just be a small part that resembles that little gizmo in the keys, which may be easy to switch from your old cluster with a little soldering. I would like to emphasize that I'm by no means an expert, just an interested party who has done a good bit of reading but may very well be blatantly wrong.

If you get the cluster, and it doesn't work, first I really hope that plugging your old cluster in will make your car work just fine; second, I'd be interested in taking a look at the MFA cluster (i.e., taking it apart or picking through what you've taken apart) as I'm often in the Portland area.

Dan-- I believe these replacements are for the A4 (99.5-on) Jetta or Golf. (They may be just for the 02-on models.) Either way, they don't seem to make new clusters for out-of-production models. However, Chris Bell successfully transplanted a B4 Passat (the same kind you have) cluster from a GLX to his TDI, adding MFA functionality. You should take a look at his article, B4 Passat TDI MFA Conversion. He listed the price as "Used $200-250 or rebuilt $350", about what your dealer is asking--but those prices may have dropped as the market dwindles.
 

RIP TDI

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Feb 16, 2000
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Santa Barbara, CA
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'15 GSW SE 6MT...... '01 Golf GLS 5MT.... '96 Passat Variant....
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Kyanoti:
..."Used $200-250 or rebuilt $350", about what your dealer is asking--but those prices may have dropped as the market dwindles.<hr></blockquote>

Yes, I recently paid $150 for a used GLX cluster (for an A3 MFA conversion). Dealer price for a rebuilt B4 cluster is running $260-280.
 

Danof L.I.N.Y.

Active member
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May 25, 2001
Location
New York NY
I called my dealer yesterday. Bring the car in, we have to look at it. It coul be a sensor, a fuse, harness.... then we'll order the replacement if it needs it.
To me this looks like at least two non- consecutive days of them running up labor charges. When I confronted them with this and the fact that only rebuilt clusters were avalable. That there must be or have been a number of failures to use up all new replacements. Unfortunately I don't think I have the Know how to swap a used one out. Even one from a gasser, minus the glowplug lite. Arthritus in both knees gives me pain just thinking about kneeling beside the car trying to work under the steering column and blowing the air bag makes me think of a Jackie Gleason sitcom situation.
When I swapped out a turbodiesel from my sons car into a non-turbo body, the swapping of clusters wasn't as compicated. We wanted the same Milage as was on the engine, moreso then the car body.
This leads me to another question. Has anyone ever installed a cluster in a '91-92 diesel with a tach from a 91-92 gasser. I did one once on an '86. The tach really bounced around. The original cluster had the "UPSHIFT" arrow , and I'm guessing it just wasn't the right steady signal the tach was expecting.

Dan
 

tadc

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Stumptown
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Golf GLS TDI, '01, Black
Hmmm anybody know what happens when the cluster rolls over from past 999999? I assume it doesn't flip back around to 000000 but I had to ask.. apparently this cluster has 40-50k on it so I wouldn't be able to program it to match my 13k miles.. but I guess I could program it to 913000 or something equally ridiculous.

Kyanoti - can you give me more info as to why you think the immobilizer will be an issue, given that people seem to have made the new euro clusters work?
 

Kyanoti

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Jan 22, 2000
Location
Ashland, OR, USA
TDI
00 Golf GL, silver
tadc-- The new clusters use the Immobilizer III system, which is new as of '02 models. You will notice that SVTWEB has a '02 TDI. From what I can tell, this third generation system is much more adaptable than the second generation system we have ('99.5-'01), as evidenced by the drastically fewer number of available clusters; whereas the old system appeared to be more hard-coded to each vehicle--each cluster had to be custom ordered for a specific vehicle from the plant--the new one can be programmed for most anything. Now, I cannot tell you for certain that an Immobilizer II cluster cannot be transplanted, as I have not tried it; but when I was dead set on having a MFA in my car, this was the problem.

My hope is that the essential function of the immobilizer is to facilitate communication between the ECU and the cluster, and that all that is required for this to happen is (a) for the ECU and cluster to recognize each other as the expected hardware and (b) for the ECU to recognize the key as the appropriate key. Then, if one can tell the ECU to expect a different cluster, regardless of what sort of cluster it is, swapping clusters won't be a big deal. Perhaps VW will only produce clusters for specific vehicles so that they can keep track of clusters, not because the hardware requires it.

On the other hand, the cluster itself could play a crucial role in recognizing the key or authorizing the ECU. If this is the case, and the cluster is from a different vehicle--not only a different key, but also a completely different ECU type if from a GLX--would not be happy in its new environment, and wouldn't allow the car to run. Then, if the cluster itself cannot be reprogrammed, nothing works except for perhaps a few seconds at a time.

One hint that the Immobilizer III cluster can be reprogrammed whereas the second generation cannot be is on APR's website; it mentions that the ECU can be adapted to the cluster for a second generation system without requiring any cluster-specific work, whereas the newer system requires "cluster ID numbers," implying to me that the cluster is flexible. Another is the question, what if I could just swap one cluster for another?--then, I could take a high mile car, swap in a low mile cluster from a scrapped car, and sell it like a low mile car; I don't see VW allowing that, but this could just mean that the cluster's odometer value cannot be changed over the swap (which is true, but is there more to it?).

My guess is that older clusters, with the Immobilizer II system, can only be programmed once and before any usage, and only for two things: mileage, and key. The Immobilizer III system perhaps can also be adapted for each ECU, although I suspect this too can only happen once.

More questions than answers, I fear, but I hope this helps.
 

Davin

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Joined
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Location
L.A.
TDI
2001 Golf GLS 5spd blk/blk
tadc,

From the Bentley:

The total distance travelled on display of new instrument panel must not be more than 100 km before the matching.

I don't think that you can adapt a panel that already has more than 100 km on the odometer.

-davin
 

PTC

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Oct 4, 2000
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Zagreb, Croatia
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HMaracic
If I remember correctly some have posted about an error which allowed to set the cluster forward/backwards with MANY more miles, but when was this repaired, I don't know. Also, from my understanding your only prob will be the wrong diplay of km/miles. If correctly installed/programmed you won't have any problems (but I think you'll have to get a code for it to program it).

Also, I have a question about these IMMOIII vs. IMMOII systems. From what I've heard IMMOIII configuration involves adaptation of channel 50 of ECU. Now what's my problem understanding it is this:
I have IMMOII on GolfIV with AGR engine (non-VNT euro 90hp TDI), MY99 (Sep. 98), and I don't have that channel. There was a change in the ECUs MY99-> MY00 but because of CAN-bus since MY00 still had IMMOII. And MY02 uses for AGR SAME ECU number like MY00/MY01. How if it needs channel 50 (and other internal hardware of course)???
 

tadc

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Apr 13, 2001
Location
Stumptown
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Golf GLS TDI, '01, Black
The cluster I have found is a 99.5 jetta cluster, so that means it doesn't have the CAN bus?

Looks like I'm gonna have to do some more homework on this one...
 

Kyanoti

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Joined
Jan 22, 2000
Location
Ashland, OR, USA
TDI
00 Golf GL, silver
tadc-- My advice would be to get friendly with a salvage/wreck dealer, and get any A4 cluster for cheap. There are a lot of the clusters out there from all of the GL's and GLS's. Throw that in your car, see if it works; if it does, great, go for the GLX w/ MFA. If not, you're not out much money, and, hell, I'd be willing to throw $20 at any old A4 cluster to take it apart and see what's going on--might help cover your expenses. If you're on really good terms with the dealer, they might even let you try the swap in their yard without having to buy it... or you could find another A4 owner and attempt to swap with them, but that puts two cars at risk if something goes wrong. (There's still the chance of even trying a new cluster will prevent your original cluster from working when plugged back in!)
 

tadc

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Golf GLS TDI, '01, Black
Well nothing's happening until I get Vag-Com running, which will be a while. I'd feel more comfortable if the used cluster were from an 01...
 

PTC

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Location
Zagreb, Croatia
TDI
HMaracic
If you have MY01 and have an MY99 cluster (for VW it's important the MODEL YEAR - and that's not in halves) then ALMOST 100% it won't work. Your current cluster (if MY of car/cluster > 99) exchanges data with ECU via CAN-bus (like MIL light, glow plug light, ...), and MY <=99 uses separate wire for each of these going from ECU (the only things using CAN-bus in pre-MY00 are TCU<=>ECU<=>ABS), while on MY00 and on CAN-bus is used also for airbags and instrument cluster. So, I think that you'll need another cluster.
 

tadc

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Stumptown
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Golf GLS TDI, '01, Black
PTC, thanks for the info.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but how do you know all this stuff, and how do you know that your info applies to North American cars as well? Since NA cars have OBDII and Euro cars don't, wouldn't there likely be other differences?
If the new (2002) cluster will work in 99.5 cars(as stated above), how do they deal with the differences in CAN bus and whatnot? Just to clear up any confusion, this cluster (the used one I'm thinking of buying) is from an 99.5 A4 Jetta VR6.

When you say model year, what do you mean? In NA the A4 Golf/Jetta became available in 99.5. Does this make it a MY 2000 car in your eyes?

Can you point me to some references?

Thanks much.
 

Kyanoti

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TDI
00 Golf GL, silver
PTC-- You seem in the know.
Can you comment on a MY00-or-01 vehicle and a MY02 cluster? (That is, Imobilizer II OE and Imo III cluster?)
 

Davin

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L.A.
TDI
2001 Golf GLS 5spd blk/blk
tadc,

I can help you with the model year question.

In the Bentley CD, under the electrical systems OBD section, there are separate sections for:

Instrument panel, On Board Diagnostic (OBD) (through MY 1999)

and

Instrument panel On Board Diagnostic (OBD) (from MY 2000)

Under the MY2000 info, it says:

In vehicles from 05.99-> the instrument cluster is connected to the power-train data-bus.

The databus is also referred to as CAN-databus.

So, it appears that the US spec 99.5 cars with build dates of 04.99 and earlier do NOT have instrument panels that use the CAN bus.

As for the 2002 style panels, I imagine that the only way they would work in ANY A4 model would be if they had connections for both the CAN bus (used by 2000+) and individual connections for the different modules (used by 1999.5). I don't know anything about this, so I won't speculate.


-davin
 

weedeater

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Mar 17, 2001
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Reston, VA
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Jetta, 2001, Baltic Green
As a side, I noticed in this month's Consumer Report they have the 2002 Passat sedan. It appears to have the same cluster as shown here.
 

PTC

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Zagreb, Croatia
TDI
HMaracic
DavinATL has said it correctly, and if you have the diagrams from bentley you can see that for yourself. I'm sorry, but that's how things are (for now, somebody could maybe do something by rerouting some wires, but to make a newer work on older, I don't know on vice-versa)
 

thomas wilk

Member
Joined
Apr 20, 2001
Location
Raleigh, NC
Hi everyone,

I just installed Euro TDI Sport cluster on
VW Golf GL MY00. I've got the cluster from Joe. ALL MFA functions work correctly. Let me tell you, this is one cool mod. My favorite is the instantaneous fuel consumption. I missed that feature ever since I owned Audi 5000. I was able to program keys but for some reason I could not recode the cluster to US country code. I think that my cluster needs to be programmed like MY02 which is a little different than MY00. I need to get hold of 5 digit code descriptions for '02 cars. My cluster thinks that this is UK
My clock has military time and temp is in Celsius.

thomas
 

thomas wilk

Member
Joined
Apr 20, 2001
Location
Raleigh, NC
I was able to switch country code after all. I was using 07244 to recode the cluster which was getting rejected. 4th digit is no longer # of cylinders but Service Interval. 07204 worked fine and now my cluster shows temp in F.

Thanks SVTWEB and others who contributed to this mod.

thomas
 

Heinz57

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 30, 2000
Location
Seattle, WA US
Happened to get a European TDI chromed MFA cluster from German e-bay for about $140 shipped -condition unknown at this time untill I get it in my hands. Anyone in the NW want to have a little GTG for the install???
 
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