Measuring Block 13 - what are normal values?

osoonikum

Active member
Joined
Feb 16, 2010
Location
Tallinn, Estonia
TDI
1999 VW Bora 1,9 TDI AHF
hy,

i have 99. bora 81kw AHF non-PD TDI, and i got today from group 013 readings at warm idle. Also the cyl 3 was floating from 0,00 when cold to this below number when warm. allso i got about 1,5L/100km higher fuel consumption than before oil change and when cold starting(-8c)
gabble or how its called and unburned fuel smell and smoke from exhaust for 10sec. when warm no gabble or smoke, only higher fuel consumption.

and the readings
cyl1: -0,59
cyl2: -0,33
cyl3: -0,19
cyl4: 0,71

so i should let to check injection nozzles?
 

X@V

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 13, 2004
Location
Sherbrooke, Qc, Canada
TDI
B7 A4 V6 2.5TDI, MK2 frankentdi 2.0 16V TDI PD
They're ok! Don't worry

During winter, fuel consumption is increasing.

Same for my FSI engine!
 

osoonikum

Active member
Joined
Feb 16, 2010
Location
Tallinn, Estonia
TDI
1999 VW Bora 1,9 TDI AHF
XaV_T said:
They're ok! Don't worry

During winter, fuel consumption is increasing.

Same for my FSI engine!
funny is that when we had here even -16C my average fuel consumption was about 6L/100km +/- 0,5 depended how hard i were driving, but now i havent got less then 7,2l/100km, although easy driving and the same road from home to work and back. summer i got little less than 5L/100km.

and as much i remember, i got this change after oil and oilfilter change and also i did the oil cooler lower seal change. Oil is 5w40 fully synthetic as before and Specifications: API SL/CF, ACEA A3, B3.

injection timing were retarded(out of specs), i set it to bit advanced but still in specs(that only lost the hard cold starting and now i have more power, fuel consumption did not decreased)

wonder how the fuel consumption could rise that dramatically.

I first suspected injection nozzles beacause of the uneven idle for 10 sec when cold start and the unburned fuel smell and smoke
 

osoonikum

Active member
Joined
Feb 16, 2010
Location
Tallinn, Estonia
TDI
1999 VW Bora 1,9 TDI AHF
but is it OK when readings are at warm and engine speed 2000RPM when driving?

cyl1: -1,13
cyl2: -0,16
cyl3: -0,12
cyl4: 1,44

to me seems to be quite unbalanced, although in specs -2 to +2

havent find any other reason to that kind of increased fuel consumption
 

AARodriguez Corp.

TDIClub Enthusiast, Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Nov 30, 2008
Location
South East USA
TDI
2009 JSW and Golf 2004 TDI
I'm not a guru, but logic leads me to believe that your #4 has a clogged injector, I had a car here that had a very similar reading on the #1, and we knew for a fact that it was clogged.
 

osoonikum

Active member
Joined
Feb 16, 2010
Location
Tallinn, Estonia
TDI
1999 VW Bora 1,9 TDI AHF
Newzboys said:
I'm not a guru, but logic leads me to believe that your #4 has a clogged injector, I had a car here that had a very similar reading on the #1, and we knew for a fact that it was clogged.
i were thinking the same, also the uneven engine working for 10 sec and unburned fuel smell and smoke from exhaust when cold starting

in summer i got normally 47-50 MPG(US), in winter 38-42 MPG but now has dropped dramatically basically over night to 32 MPG. could be there sticky VNT actuator or vanes? i have had some times limp mode and got faulty code 17958 - Charge Pressure: Control Deviation
P1550 - 35-00 - -

But havent got it for some time and after deleting the code havent appeared again. i tested the vnt movement via vag com and came to conclusion, that VNT actuator or vanes are sticking, but as soon as i get some $$ i will get it fixed. In my mind could be probably injection nozzles decreasing my MPG
 
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X@V

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 13, 2004
Location
Sherbrooke, Qc, Canada
TDI
B7 A4 V6 2.5TDI, MK2 frankentdi 2.0 16V TDI PD
Injection nozzles won't decreas your MPG, at least not a this point.

My father's AHU had a nozzle @ 1.88 and I did a 600 mile tank with it. After changing the nozzles, it didn't change the fuel consumption (.205)
 

AARodriguez Corp.

TDIClub Enthusiast, Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
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Location
South East USA
TDI
2009 JSW and Golf 2004 TDI
my smoothest alh is
cyl1: 0.05
cyl2: -0.09
cyl3: -0.12
cyl4: 0.07


I think that your #'s are good.

Just a thought, I see this thread running away with everyone and their mother posting their block 13 stats,

I think its safe to say that its a good to have your #'s close to 0.00, although it is not likely that you will actually have that reading.

I also think it safe to say that if you have a reading of:
cyl1: 0.25
cyl2: -0,16
cyl3: -0,12
cyl4: 1,44

You probably might have an issue, if I saw those #'s. If I saw something like that I would evaluate:

-How many miles has it been since my injectors were serviced?
150,000+ = hehe, my car deserves service for good performance, and I would call frank06.

-Is my car running good, quite, and smoothe?
If it's not broke, don't fix it, says the cheap bastard in me.

And if I saw those #'s with stock nozzles, I'd tell my wife, Oh god, the injectors nozzles on the car are screwed up, this is what happens when they are screwed up. I have to get Sprint 520's or we are going to ruin the car. lol

 
Last edited:

osoonikum

Active member
Joined
Feb 16, 2010
Location
Tallinn, Estonia
TDI
1999 VW Bora 1,9 TDI AHF
XaV_T said:
Injection nozzles won't decreas your MPG, at least not a this point.

My father's AHU had a nozzle @ 1.88 and I did a 600 mile tank with it. After changing the nozzles, it didn't change the fuel consumption (.205)
hmm, interesting, what could be the cause, i noticed it just after oil change, oil is about 1mm over max mark(that could not also make any difference).

havent found any information about that kind of MPG cut off, air and fuel filter were changed about 4 months ago
 

AARodriguez Corp.

TDIClub Enthusiast, Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Nov 30, 2008
Location
South East USA
TDI
2009 JSW and Golf 2004 TDI
osoonikum said:
i were thinking the same, also the uneven engine working for 10 sec and unburned fuel smell and smoke from exhaust when cold starting

in summer i got normally 47-50 MPG(US), in winter 38-42 MPG but now has dropped dramatically basically over night to 32 MPG. could be there sticky VNT actuator or vanes? i have had some times limp mode and got faulty code 17958 - Charge Pressure: Control Deviation
P1550 - 35-00 - -

But havent got it for some time and after deleting the code havent appeared again. i tested the vnt movement via vag com and came to conclusion, that VNT actuator or vanes are sticking, but as soon as i get some $$ i will get it fixed. In my mind could be probably injection nozzles decreasing my MPG

I would lean towards clogged intake, or turbo performance for decreased mpg
 

Bud44

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 2, 2008
Location
Azusa, CA
TDI
03 Jetta TDI
I checked my Group 13 today, here are the results:

cyl 1: -.45
cyl 2: -.54
cyl 3: -.94
cyl 4: XX


Do my injectors look out of wack?

I have about 213,000 miles on the car and I have know idea if the injectors have ever been replaced...
 
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far_cry

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Dec 29, 2009
Location
Israel
TDI
octavia 1.9 TDI alh
Newzboys said:

how does that happened ?
lets say my engine have like this piston ,what i will feel ,no power? loose of power because of low compression ?
 

RomSL

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Location
Philly
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Porsche Cayenne
So, why the earlier TDIs show only 3 readings, while other VP37s can show correction in all 4 cylinders?
 

Franko6

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May 7, 2005
Location
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Jetta, 99, Silver`
Ok guys,

Here is how and why I use block 13.

Btw: Dan is right. The block shows what the engine is needing to fuel each cylinder according to the reporting of the engine speed sensor. Whatever makes the engine run faster or slower per cylinder can only be adjusted by changing the amount of fuel, regardless if the real issue is a damaged cam, bent rod, bad rings, or leaking valves.

The next important information to know about idle balance compensation; if the injectors are old, they will also be weak. That will make them run more equally.

If you reset the pressures, the balance becomes much more critical. More pressure means better atomization and better burn. But any time you are working to a more critical tolerance, variations will become exaggerated. Basically, the higher the pressure and the faster the needle operates, the more exacting the control becomes.

Therefor, DJ, although your readings are very close if comparing newly calibrated nozzles, they are not near as close, since they have plenty of miles on them.

Also, the Idle Compensation is exactly that. Once you get above 1500rpm, the idle compensation no longer operates and each cylinder is fueled the same, regardless what compensation happens at idle. At least, that is true for the AHU and ALH engines. The PD and the CR engines compensate throughout the engine rpm. Your graph at 2000rpm DJ, means nothing. Also, the default cylinder is #3, which is an assumed '0'.

As for Newsboys nozzle change, the initial #1 nozzle was underfueling badly. The other 3 nozzles are reducing fuel in order to try and keep in line with #1. If the #1 injector were to be cleaned or replaced, the other three nozzles would increase fueling and the balance would be much closer.

The Chinese nozzles are a poor excuse for nozzles. I don't see any quality. Also, since you didn't pressure test the nozzles, the block 13 readings are not a valid method to determine if the nozzles are working well or not. Set pilot and main pressures and see how those block 13 numbers change.

In the set of nozzles that one was running 1.84, the nozzle is likely clogged or sticking. Cleaning that nozzles will make it run in line with the other three.

After balancing and flow testing a set of nozzles, there are often variations, but usually not more than .5 +/-. That is acceptable. Nozzles outside of that range should be rechecked or the engine should be tested for compression and leakdown.
 
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RomSL

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Location
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Porsche Cayenne
If we have the following readings:
#1 -0.7
#2 0.0
#3 +1.3
#4 -0.4

does it mean that injector #3 has to be checked?
 

Franko6

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
May 7, 2005
Location
Sw Missouri
TDI
Jetta, 99, Silver`
I checked my Group 13 today, here are the results:

cyl 1: -.45
cyl 2: -.54
cyl 3: -.94
cyl 4: XX


Do my injectors look out of wack?

I have about 213,000 miles on the car and I have know idea if the injectors have ever been replaced...
Everything's OK!
Not in my book...

If you figure that the #4 injector(actually, I think it's really #3, the default), is attempting to add fuel. The other injectors are all decreasing fueling to compensate.

The #3 is usually the one that goes out of whack first, so what is happening is normal.
 

DanG144

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Chapin, South Carolina, USA
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2005 A4 Jetta 5spd
Not in my book...
If you figure that the #4 injector(actually, I think it's really #3, the default), is attempting to add fuel. The other injectors are all decreasing fueling to compensate.
The #3 is usually the one that goes out of whack first, so what is happening is normal.
Not good, but not not an unusual failure pattern, right Frank?
 

DanG144

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Location
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2005 A4 Jetta 5spd
If we have the following readings:
#1 -0.7
#2 0.0
#3 +1.3
#4 -0.4
does it mean that injector #3 has to be checked?

I would say yes, the #3 injector should be checked. Not on an immediate basis, but soon. Actually I would do all 4 while I was at it.

You might first try a Diesel Purge to clean the injectors on the car.

After the diesel purge, IF it had been any but #3, I would swap the injectors to rule out the pump as a contributor to the problem.

As Frank mentions elsewhere in this thread, for some reason it is often the #3 injector that starts failing first.
 

A3@udi

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Sep 1, 2012
Location
UK
TDI
A3
Ive just graphed my injector deviation, it appears they sit on a set value over a certain rpm, number 1 reads -1.3 2 is .7 3 is .5 and 4 is within +-.2

If you can picture fluctiations on all four while its idling, then a short drive, then when they fluctuate again they seem to all read closer to 0, followed by a short drive, then on idle they are again closer to zero, is this normal?

engine is bxp 1.9 tdi, weather is warm, about 30degrees here in uk now! and this log was from warmed up after re gassing my aircon.
 

Feinstaub_CH

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Serbia
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Now: Passat AVF 1.9TDI 4Motion, Stand by: Octavia 1.9 AHF
Hi all

It's an old thread - but I am facing some low MPG issues on my AVF - PD.

Well, after driving over 300 km on highway with 130kmh my consumption is still about 7.0 - 7.5 l - around 32mpg us. What for me is tooooo high.

Car is chipped to 160ish horses and SOI is advanced.

Attached is the yesterdays 50km ride - with 013 log.

Can someone review this and tell me if everything is fine with the PD element?

Any suggestion is welcome


Many thanks
Feinstaub

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mahir

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Dec 19, 2017
Location
Sana, BIH
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Did measurments on my warm alh group 13 today. Drived it on high way then on local came home and tested it.

Cyl #1 -0.19 mg/str
Cyl #2 -0.52 mg/str
Cyl #3 0.71 mg/str
Cyl #4 0.02 mg/str

So between the cyl 2 and 3 the difference is 1.23 and i bet it tells me i should have a look at my noozles in some short time. Take them out clean them is that right ? Its not due to the chip tuning i made coz i remember car had a huge iq difference since i got it.
 

greenskeeper

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Mar 10, 2003
Location
USA
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1998 Jetta TDI
Did measurments on my warm alh group 13 today. Drived it on high way then on local came home and tested it.

Cyl #1 -0.19 mg/str
Cyl #2 -0.52 mg/str
Cyl #3 0.71 mg/str
Cyl #4 0.02 mg/str

So between the cyl 2 and 3 the difference is 1.23 and i bet it tells me i should have a look at my noozles in some short time. Take them out clean them is that right ? Its not due to the chip tuning i made coz i remember car had a huge iq difference since i got it.
How does the car run? Don't fix what isn't broke. The "injector balance" isn't just the condition of the injectors, it could also be the condition of the cylinder itself, valves, IP, etc to get that reading.
 

k_pt

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pt
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VW MKIV TDI
Did measurments on my warm alh group 13 today. Drived it on high way then on local came home and tested it.

Cyl #1 -0.19 mg/str
Cyl #2 -0.52 mg/str
Cyl #3 0.71 mg/str
Cyl #4 0.02 mg/str

So between the cyl 2 and 3 the difference is 1.23 and i bet it tells me i should have a look at my noozles in some short time. Take them out clean them is that right ? Its not due to the chip tuning i made coz i remember car had a huge iq difference since i got it.
Can't see any problem on those values.

Just my opinion, I've seen good values, on engines with problems, just because they are warm when reading.

I had a bent rod, no protrusion at all, and I was getting perfect readings on warm, even better than yours, but on a cold start, it would go to 2.99 deviation, for about 10/15secs.

I really don't like to do readings when the car is warm, because you are looking at the best stage of the engine, when its stone cold, thats when the issues come up. Compression readings, injector readings, etc, should all be done when the engine is cold.
 
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