Mean Green Biodiesel Machine build

brnsgrbr

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So the 200 miles back home were fun as well. I easily hit 125 mph at a couple of points to get buy a long line up of both semis and cars. Did not even see that is what I did until I started decelerating.

Once home I noticed fuel deposits surrounding 3 of the 4 injectors. Showed to my friendly mechanic friend. He asked if I floored it in 6th 1st. Which I inadvertently did the 1st time. He said the dynamic pressure overcame the tensioning of the injector clamping bolts. He suggested I use the extra exhaust head studs and use the copper nuts that secure the exhaust manifold to hold down the injectors. Seems to make sense at this point. Any thoughts?


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Fix_Until_Broke

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Your friendly mechanic friend is right, but I don't think the solution is to change the clamping method. If you put in studs/nuts I think you'll have the same issue (it's not the bolts un-threading, it's the localized deformation that's stealing your preload)

Get a new set of copper washers for the injectors, insure the mating surface in the cylinder head is perfectly clean. Install and torque, then take a hammer & punch and hit the fork near the injector to seat the washer. Now re-torque the hold down bolts.

Drive it for a day or two, give it a couple heat cycles where the engine gets up to operating temp and cools down (don't go WOT yet).

Repeat the hammer/punch/retorque method until the bolts stop turning when you re-torque.
 

oldpoopie

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I agree, unless your injector seal surface is buggered, the stock hardware will be fine. Also try not to move the injector when tightening the injector line.
 

brnsgrbr

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Your friendly mechanic friend is right, but I don't think the solution is to change the clamping method. If you put in studs/nuts I think you'll have the same issue (it's not the bolts un-threading, it's the localized deformation that's stealing your preload)

Get a new set of copper washers for the injectors, insure the mating surface in the cylinder head is perfectly clean. Install and torque, then take a hammer & punch and hit the fork near the injector to seat the washer. Now re-torque the hold down bolts.

Drive it for a day or two, give it a couple heat cycles where the engine gets up to operating temp and cools down (don't go WOT yet).

Repeat the hammer/punch/retorque method until the bolts stop turning when you re-torque.
Thanks. I will try that right away. I will try it without replacing the washers 1st. There are only 2000 miles on this and a month of use. The head is fresh from Frank06. So its not like there have been 10's of thousands miles on it, over several months, where lists of contaminants have gotten in there. Unless you are saying the fuel that was forced out and the pressure changed the seating of the washers.


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Fix_Until_Broke

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Well, if they've been leaking, there's likely soot and "stuff" on the sealing surfaces already. You've got nothing to loose by trying it though, and you can also pull them out and clean them up and try it again. If you only want to do it once, just get new washers.

I don't understand your last sentence about fuel being forced out and seating of the washers...?
 

SkyRyder55

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pulling out and trying again will probably not work well unless you anneal the copper. After it goes through the heat cycles it will harden. But if you take a torch to it, get the washers red hot then instantly quench them in water they will be soft again. clean them up with some scotch brite and giver.
 

brnsgrbr

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I don't understand your last sentence about fuel being forced out and seating of the washers...?
I had soot coming out of the number 3 but it was because it wasn't properly torqued. Then on my last trip when I inadvertently WOT'd in 6th, then correctly dropped to 4th and WOT'd from 65mph (more detail now) to 125mph, there was some soot from #3 but additionally, some fuel around #'s 1,3,&4 injectors. That is what I was referring too.

Sorry, my original post wasn't as detailed and clear as I was still trying to put it all together in my mind.


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brnsgrbr

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pulling out and trying again will probably not work well unless you anneal the copper. After it goes through the heat cycles it will harden. But if you take a torch to it, get the washers red hot then instantly quench them in water they will be soft again. clean them up with some scotch brite and giver.
That's is some interesting info.

I did not remove the injectors. I just did the mallet and punch tequnique. Then I pressure degreased the mess off so that when I push it again, I'll be able to see if it happens again. If not then I will do it from scratch. I ended up with about a turn to a turn and a half of more torquing btw.


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Fix_Until_Broke

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Wow - a turn to a turn and a half is more than I would have expected.

If you anneal the washers - two things to note...

1) Don't quench them in water - just let them air cool
2) Keep an eye on them when you're heating them up. A few seconds too long and you'll have a puddle, then you get to go to the local parts store and find some brake hose washers that are close enough to work (been there, done that :))

Having fuel around the injectors is a little weird...and shouldn't have anything to do with the hold down. Do you maybe have a leaking return line or something?

In my opinion, a 65-125 WOT run in 6th shouldn't be a problem - that's about 1800-3600 RPM which should be right in the sweet spot.
 

SkyRyder55

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Wrong. If you let them air cool they will not soften. They will naturalize. may be slightly softer then when you started, but not soft enough. you could also quench in water. You must quench immediately.
And it would take a lot of heat to melt them. a propane torch would take a while unless you had a big torch. when you see it go red quench it.
 

kiwibru

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So this action: "then take a hammer & punch and hit the fork near the injector to seat the washer" seems a little radical for the forks. I thought the forks were pretty easy to fracture and break thus the low torque settings for the hold down bolts? It sounds like a good idea but just wondering if the forks are okay with this.Getting ready to swap out some old PP502 and injector bodies so there is reasoning behind the question.
 

brnsgrbr

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So this action: "then take a hammer & punch and hit the fork near the injector to seat the washer" seems a little radical for the forks. I thought the forks were pretty easy to fracture and break thus the low torque settings for the hold down bolts? It sounds like a good idea but just wondering if the forks are okay with this.Getting ready to swap out some old PP502 and injector bodies so there is reasoning behind the question.

I recommend using an eighth in round punch or so. I tried a wedge thinking it would disperse the energy across both sides. Did it once and changed to the round immediately. It's scares you until you see nothing bad happens.


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SkyRyder55

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Wow - a turn to a turn and a half is more than I would have expected.

If you anneal the washers - two things to note...

1) Don't quench them in water - just let them air cool
2) Keep an eye on them when you're heating them up. A few seconds too long and you'll have a puddle, then you get to go to the local parts store and find some brake hose washers that are close enough to work (been there, done that :))

Having fuel around the injectors is a little weird...and shouldn't have anything to do with the hold down. Do you maybe have a leaking return line or something?

In my opinion, a 65-125 WOT run in 6th shouldn't be a problem - that's about 1800-3600 RPM which should be right in the sweet spot.
you may also be thinking of steel. When annealing steel, it should be allowed to cool as slow as possible. Copper and brass it needs to be cooled instantly.
 

Fix_Until_Broke

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I used a propane torch with the washer strung through a piece of welding wire - I turned my head for literally 3 seconds when someone asked me what I was doing and when I turned my head around the washer was on the floor since it melted.

The ones that I air cooled were "dead soft" - I assumed that quenching them in water would harden them. My materials classes were ~15 years ago :)

I don't think I've heard of any forks breaking on injectors...I've heard of hold down bolts breaking, but never the forks. Hitting the fork with a hammer/punch puts no load on the bolt so as long as you're not using a 2lb hammer like you're driving a 20p nail, you'll be ok.
 

SkyRyder55

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to PROPERLY anneal copper, it HAS to be quenched very quickly after heating. If done slowley, it will anneal, but not as much. and may need to be repeated several times. My schooling and books say as much.
Do as you want. I dont care.
 

brnsgrbr

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I had soot coming out of the number 3 but it was because it wasn't properly torqued. Then on my last trip when I inadvertently WOT'd in 6th, then correctly dropped to 4th and WOT'd from 65mph (more detail now) to 125mph, there was some soot from #3 but additionally, some fuel around #'s 1,3,&4 injectors. That is what I was referring too.
Maybe the fuel was from the small fuel return hoses. I did not see any fuel on the injector bodies. But that said, if over come by pressure I would think those hoses would have blown off. Not just swelled to release some fuel.

The more I think about the stranger this is to me. Any of the fuel in the cylinder would have changed under pressure. It should have only come back out past the injector nozzle as soot right?

So the only thing that makes any sense is where the injector lines meet the injectors. Maybe they need another eighth of a turn. That makes me wonder too though. That pressure should not have increased. It should not be related to the dynamic pressure created in the cylinders.


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Fix_Until_Broke

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The return lines won't necessarily blow off, but will develop a crack/split in the rubber under the cloth and then leak. Maybe during high fuel delivery the return flow increased a little and it started to leak?

You should be able to easily see if it's leaking from the body/tube connection and it really, really shouldn't be leaking from the injector body/nozzle interface.

And as you mentioned, once it's in the combustion chamber, it should only come out as soot.
 

brnsgrbr

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Well I got rid of the soot on 1&4 but not 3. Also the fuel is leaking, pooling again.


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Digital Corpus

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'97 B4 w/ 236K mi body, 46K mi soul
Injector 1 on mine was leaking. Took it out, took off the retaining nut, used a little brake cleaner, put it back on and re torqued it (retaining nut) and now it's fine.
 

brnsgrbr

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Well it's been almost a year since I've updated this thing so I thought I would add an update.

First I want to say that the engine and the engine tune done by TDtuning has been great. It runs real smooth and I love the higher Highway power that I get now. The clutch has also been great. Considering it's a heavy duty clutch, the pedal feel is still light and does not fatigue my calves in heavy stop and go traffic. I do get a lot of flywheel chatter neutral though. I just bought a Fluidampr from INA in hopes of minimizing it. I am of course nervous about it because the engine had been balanced and blueprinted. It is worth a shot though. So once I get a couple more consecutive days off without it raining on me I'll knock that out. I can say without a doubt now that the piston rings have completely seated as I'm not burning any oil whatsoever. And exhaust screw where the turbo mounts to the exhaust manifold has worked its way out though. Luckily I have some extras. However the problem is trying to actually have access with tools to thread the damn screw. I'm going to have to do a lot of disassembly just to be able to thread that one screw in.

The only real issues that I've had over the past year have been due to the GTI to TDI conversion. It's nice having all of the bells and whistles like the sunroof the power door locks the power windows the heated seats. I also love the bigger factory GTI brakes. I recently lost some of those features. I thought my comfort control module went bad but actually it was cracked insulation on the wires in between the frame and the door that I had to repair. I also have a really bad water leaks. I'm getting a lot of water on both the passenger and driver side into the cab. Now that spring is here and good weather is a lot more likely I will address those issues plus the two issues I still haven't resolved from previous posts. The fuel tank leak and reseating my injectors.

Suspension wise, I really like the engine mounts that I bought. I get very little vibration transmission into the cabin. I only get a little bit of transmission into the steering wheel. The airlift suspension is great. I am sure that it would feel even better if I didn't have high air pressure in my tires and the Audi TT bushings. It's nice to be able ride more comfortably, on some sections of highways, that have those annoying seams that wreck havoc on our short wheelbase cars. I just wish I could get more ground clearance in the front especially since my oil pan is about an inch lower with the engine girdle installed. All the air suspension kits for the dubs focus on lowering the car for that aesthetic stance. I'm trying to figure out a way to actually lift the front about 1.5 - 2 inches to compensate and gain clearance for mild off-road camp grounds. I am debating whether or not to install the auto leveling sensors. I am sure I will though. The ability to raise and lower the car has created one small annoyance. The rear exhaust pipe can rattle on the rear axle of the car. It rattles right at the rear right height that I like having the car at.


Future projects include having a custom rear tow bumper made and installed so I can tow, swapping my aftermarket euro front bumper cover for a factory R32 bumper, maybe some bodywork, installing the rear R32 wing, and finally a custom paint job.

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A5INKY

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You could always raise the engine relative to the chassis with engine mount spacers. The UroTuning ones are 1", though they say that might be too much w/o frame notching. The BFI ones are less at 17mm (or ~11/16").
 

brnsgrbr

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I thought frame notching was only necessary for extreme lowering. Thank you for letting me know about their existence.
 

D-cappz

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You have got some serious build going on there.
I am currently in the middle of a build and maybe you could swing by my thread on pistons and rods and hand over some info you may have.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=471017

Also this is the first engine iv done internal work on and I am wondering what balancing and blueprint the engine is.

can tapered rods fit an ALH or ASV piston?
 
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GOFAST

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nederland
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vento afn
nice build.
how often do you check oil quality, or replace it ?
do you have a dyno print out ?
 

brnsgrbr

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nice build.
how often do you check oil quality, or replace it ?
do you have a dyno print out ?


I haven't had it on a Dyno yet. I keep running into other issues that prevent me from being able to put a big tune on it.

As for oil, maybe the rings never completely seated as I have to top it off 1-2x every 10K. Might be to another issue related to something else though.


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