MB 300TD/320CDI, advice, discussion, help needed

[Rub87]

2*1756VK''s with VL 50trim wheel and and 37mm exducer then I think there's no problem at all to spool any LP capable of 750hp.. if it would have been a V engine..

yesterday we were putting 3.0l BV-50 at a 2.7 tdi in audi A6, and there's suprisingly much room for a big signle when you remove the egr cooler.. the 2.7l BV-50 seemed to had equal turbine exducer and only slightly smaller comp inducer than the 3.0l one

 

[shadowmaker]

I'd use something like gt2056v sequential with something like gt35 or hx40 (these with external wastegate). No need for compounding.

 

[majesty78]

I could get a new GT3582R quite cheap*g*

With sequential you mean staged setup?

Wouldnt it be possible to use the OEM GT2359V as HP turbo?

 

[de-nitro]

sorry for noob question but whats difference betweeen seqential and compund system? Link with some thread where this is discussed would be appreciated.

 

[2slowtdi]

I'm glad that I'm not the only one looking to make more power from my CDI.

As I did with my TDI I want to make as much power with out taking a mileage hit.

Over the last month I have been getting the maintenance done to start out knowing
what my base line is.

 

[shadowmaker]

I could get a new GT3582R quite cheap*g*

With sequential you mean staged setup?

Wouldnt it be possible to use the OEM GT2359V as HP turbo?

HP (=high pressure) in sequential system would be the bigger one if you come to think about it... Sequential is where one turbo is working at the time. You just switch between the turbos depending on the load and rpm.

Original gt2359v could be used as a smaller turbo, but it's kind of laggy (as it is old design). Of course you can spool it up sooner by adding fuel, but it's no match for these modern vnts from new 3L DI engines. If you are happy with it now (or after chip), there's no reason to change it.

 

[TDIMeister]

HP (=high pressure) in sequential system would be the bigger one if you come to think about it...

Be that as it may -- and I don't really disagree with you -- the industry convention is to call the small turbo the HP stage. It's not which turbo stage operates at a higher pressure ratio as it is which turbo sees a higher inlet pressure. In a series sequential setup, it's obvious that the flow entering the inlet of the small turbo is precompressed by the large one, so it's at a higher inlet pressure. For parallel setups it might be more useful to use a primary/secondary naming convention.

Sequential is where one turbo is working at the time. You just switch between the turbos depending on the load and rpm.

This may be true of some old parallel sequential setups, but series sequential that's the current state-of-the-art has both turbos working simultaneously at the low-end -- albeit the large turbo not doing relatively much because of its boost threshold and slow spool-up -- in a compounding effect (still hate that term used in this context), and the HP unit gets bypassed at higher RPM. In the Porsche 959 (an implementation of parallel sequential, which in German is called Registeraufladung), the first turbo operates first and the second comes on-stream at higher RPM, but the first is not disabled. So in either setup, both turbos are operating simultaneously at least part-time. Maybe I'm just nitpicking over semantics.

Original gt2359v could be used as a smaller turbo, but it's kind of laggy (as it is old design). Of course you can spool it up sooner by adding fuel, but it's no match for these modern vnts from new 3L DI engines. If you are happy with it now (or after chip), there's no reason to change it.

My thoughts exactly. If you want something better than can segway into a 2-stage setup on your 3L, I can't think of anything better than a GTB2260VK with the largest trim. Almost all implementations of a 2-stage system I have seen grossly oversize the HP turbo. For our project, we're using a 49mm wheel from a GT1749VB and hybridizing it it with a GTA20V hotside.

You actually get a sneak peek of what I'm working on...

 

[ocshaman]

Subscribing, so that when I have 2 hours I can look up all the OMs and engines, I just want a 98 or 99 E300, with a locking tq converter.

 

[Rub87]

never tought a VB wheel could do 2.5bar relative without overspeeding at low rpm =)

 

[TDIMeister]

Ours never exceed PR=2 even though manifold pressure could be 4+ bar absolute.

 

[Rub87]

don't you think it will exceed PR2 under transient conditions as it will have much less inertia as the LP turbo?

 

[TDIMeister]

Yes, I have modeled and simulated transient behaviour in a 2-stage turbo system with very good agreement with road test data and I already have solutions up my sleeve to deal with it

Edit: After checking my model map and cross-referencing it with dieseleux's database, the turbo I've selected for the HP stage turns out to match most closely in trim and A/R with the 49VC wheel, not VB.

 

[majesty78]

Well, luckywise I have a spare GTB2260VK which I can certainly use for this project.
Would a GT3581R (Ballbearing) still be a good choice as LP Turbo?

So setup would look like this (mechanical wise ):

Exhaust manifold with direct fitted GTB22, the turbine exducer directly feeding into the exhaust inlet of GT35, then downpipe at GT35 exducer.
The GTB22 gets a wastegate bypass before turbine. feeding into the exhaust inlet of GT35, to limit EMP, the GT35 gets an wastegate feeding into the downpipe to limit boost.
Additional maybe something like a dumpvalve feeding from LP turbo compressor outlet into intake manifold, bypassing the HP turbo compresdor to avoid overspeeding this.

VNT control is kept upright with N75 and mapping through the ecu as usual, but what about the 2 wastegates and the dumpvalve ?

The EGR is going to be kicked, so there would be a "free vacuum channel" to use either for one of the wastegates or, what I think would be better, for the dumpvalve.

Would it be accurate enough to work properly if the 2 wastegates are just setup mechanical, without any possibility of electronic control?

The first wastegate would be connected and controlled with exhaust manifold pressure, and the second as usual with boost pressure...

Or is this way I am thinking much to complicated?

 

[Rub87]

Edit: After checking my model map and cross-referencing it with dieseleux's database, the turbo I've selected for the HP stage turns out to match most closely in trim and A/R with the 49VC wheel, not VB.

Damn, I shipped the VC I had on the afn today out to Canada

 

[shadowmaker]

ok, >2.

Here's one. OM606 with 2x Holset + M90.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGHOzTYd0Fg

I have been waiting some dyno/quarter mile results from this one, but no luck so far. Very clean build.

 

[majesty78]

Here she is....

Almost a virgin... ;-)

I hope you like the license plate*g*

 

[appievw]

ein richtige cruiser

 

[majesty78]

Thats correct, its an absolutely pleasure driving this car, even in stock condition.

After finishing the repairs on the brakes and making a "big service" we will start figuring out a new software as first step...

 

[ryanp]

pimp, lol

 

[Rub87]

tieferlegung achja

 

[Diesel_Benz]

You need a Holset HE431Ve.

 

[majesty78]

Dont you mean a 341Ve?

 

[Diesel_Benz]

No. A 431 is much larger than a 341. Between an HX40 and 50 in flow capacity.

For Holset VGTs;
341= HX35
351= HX40
431= HX40-50 (since there is no HX45)
451= HX50
551= HX55
561= HX60

Only the 431 and 551 were made with mechanical (125psi service brake air) actuators. The 341 used a 12vdc motor with position sensor and the rest use a computerized stepper motor. All have a shaft speed sensor.

 

[roundout]

Nice MB.

 

[majesty78]

Little update here.

Bigger injector nozzles are in production and will arrive in about 2 weeks.

As basic nozzle i have chosen those from C30 CDI AMG which will additional be increased in flow to 20%. This should be enough to realize about 260-270hp with stock duration.

For this first step, stock GT2359V will be used, but with modified exhaust and intercooler.

Regards,
Alex

 

[raffshore]

any update?

 

[bqik]

hi!

are ther updates???

regards

 

[HO'OLAKO]

majesty, have you thought of using a rotrex c38 supercharger there top end flow rivals gt series turbos! there efficiency is as good a turbo on the top end too! for 3k you can honeywell(garrett) make you a custom vnt turbo. either way plan over 3k investment just on charger. Just wanted to add wood to the fire! The e320 cdi is the best commuter car in the world! My c30 rotrex ALH tdi jetta is collecting dust in driveway since i bought an 05. Get myna to rebuild trans! aloha

 

[majesty78]

Some updates here:

Changed MAP sensor from 250 to 300kpa to maintain higher boost than 1,5bar and then remapped.

Before:

0-200kpH about 30sec with ~225hp/520Nm and 215/55/16 tires

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVOvXeL3WME

After:

0-200kpH about 23.5sec with ~265hp/650Nm and 235/40/18 tires, more fuel and little higher ambient temperature.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-032tkpQOs

Some other changes:

Bodydrop 2.5" and 18" AMG wheels




To aid the power enhancement i felt that I must optimize the "wheight" of the exhaust system, I guess you get the trick




Regards, Alex

 

[majesty78]

Been on a track day today with my girlfriend and both cars, mine and her Seat Ibiza Cupra 1.8T.
Been really funny, car worked fine, transmission worked well but after ~20 laps the brake pedal became softer and softer.
The course is quite short and very curvy, so not really a highspeed track, and it has been humidified to reduce noise.
Here two videos:

Mercedes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBRdn5R68lI


Ibiza:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBu-oy2v5oY


Laptimes of both cars is quite equal, which I think is good if you compare a big, heavy Mercedes which is not really a "handy" track car, to a lightweight, compact Ibiza....

Regards, Alex