///// Maximum Handling : Can regular all season tires blow away racing oriented tires with these additions ? /////

[Andyinchville1]

Hi All,

I know many people seek better handling through better tires , all manner of coil overs / springs, harder bushings, anti roll bars and even changing front end parts with the higher end Audi parts for better caster / camber curves etc.... BUT has anybody here tries these or know of anybody who has tried these (see link below).

Tubular Racing Subframe (MK4 FWD) : USRT | Real cars, Real Roads, Real Fast!

USRT Tubular Racing Subframe (MK4 FWD) - Our newest Tubular Racing Subframe substantially increases grip on FWD cars! It reduces front-end roll and keeps the tires planted flatter to

usrallyteam.com

Racing Geometry (MK4) : USRT | Real cars, Real Roads, Real Fast!

USRT : Racing Geometry (MK4) - Engine, Fuel & Spark, Transmission, Other, Water/Methanol Injection, Suspension, Exhaust, Forced Induction, Brakes, Fittings (AN & NPT),

usrallyteam.com

While the parts seem expensive I think the idea is sound ... better handling through better camber curves / roll centers.

PLUS if these 2 parts (the subframe and the control arms) allow the use of cheaper "regular" long wearing tires to be used in place of high end short lived tires for similar performance maybe it can actually SAVE money in the long run OR if you still want to use performance rubber / wheels maybe you could leave an F1 car on the dust in the twisties ! .... well maybe ! ;-)

Can somebody PLEASE try these and do a detailed report ... I would LOVE to know.

Andrew

 

[oilhammer]

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

Short answer is no. Good geometry helps, but at stock height (not lower, not taller) the suspension geometry is pretty good on these cars. They can use more front camber for better turn in and grip at the limit, but if you dial that in either with different suspension components or adjustable strut mounts, you'll suffer uneven tire wear.

Regardless, sticky tires are by far have the most impact on handling feel and grip. I would drive my MKIV (Wagon or Golf) to the track on 16" wheels with 225/50-16 summer tires, which I'd also use for practice laps or in the rain. But when I put the slicks on the car for faster laps the difference was dramatic. Even perfect geometry won't fix poor grip.

By the way, the treadwear rating on the slicks was 60. My calculation was they lasted about 12 hours of track use.

 

[oilhammer]

A whole 60? The Nittos I had on my '95 Golf Sport for autocrossing was only 40. But they were literally STICKY when warm. You could put your hand on them and have to "peel" it off after running around the track.

Still, my buddy's Miata with a cheap set of half worn whatever-Wal-mart-sold Chinapops would easily out handle my poor Golf. And it was so much more fun, even if it was no faster on the straights.

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

The Hoosiers would pick up small stones in the paddock and throw them around the wheel wells when you got out on the track. Made quite a racket.

My Wagon handled best with stock suspension components except for camber plates. I ran 3 degrees of negative camber. And I used Koni coilovers, with 700 lb front springs and 450 lb rears. Since the car had zero body roll the geometry stayed the same all the time. I used to be able to scoot around BMWs on the outside of turns. And the Shine rear bar was rendered useless because there wasn't enough body roll to engage it. I used to disconnect the front bar, too, to avoid the inside front wheel spinning coming out of lower speed turns.

 

[Andyinchville1]

Short answer is no. Good geometry helps, but at stock height (not lower, not taller) the suspension geometry is pretty good on these cars. They can use more front camber for better turn in and grip at the limit, but if you dial that in either with different suspension components or adjustable strut mounts, you'll suffer uneven tire wear.

Regardless, sticky tires are by far have the most impact on handling feel and grip. I would drive my MKIV (Wagon or Golf) to the track on 16" wheels with 225/50-16 summer tires, which I'd also use for practice laps or in the rain. But when I put the slicks on the car for faster laps the difference was dramatic. Even perfect geometry won't fix poor grip.

By the way, the treadwear rating on the slicks was 60. My calculation was they lasted about 12 hours of track use.

HI,

I have heard that it's not good to lower our cars (for reasons other than potential oil pan damage) becaus it puts you in the "bad" curve of negative camber (loss .... i.e. positive camber gain) as the suspension moves to start with.

However, if one were to RAISE the front end ( either through spacers or taller springs) would that help handling by giving the extra 1" or so extra suspension movement BEFORE the camber starts to go "bad" or would the redoing of the alignment to factor in the lift effectively keep everything the same as in stock camber gain / loss ?

It seems like if one were to raise the car a bit then the car suspension could move back into the bad range BUT it would have to fight through that extra inch or 2 of suspension movement to START to get into the bad section of the camber curve ? .... I hope that was clear what I was trying to say?

maybe put another was ..... I realize raising the front end an inch or 2 increases the CG a bit but would the better camber curve of the lift more than offset the weight transfer of the increased CG therefore helping handling overall.

Of course with all that I would not want to run with excessive negative or positive camber initially since that would grossly affect tire wear on a daily driver.

Thanks
Andrew

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

Stock height is best. If you go higher or lower then camber starts to go positive. Which is great for going straight, not so great for cornering. My son's Golf has a 2" lift and the camber is slightly positive. My Wagon is stock height and the camber is bout .75 degrees negative. I like that much or 1 degree negative as it helps turn in a lot. And if you corner with the car at all you won't see any ill effects on tire wear.

Camber goes positive as the car rolls. It's a safety feature that causes the car to lose front grip and go straight in extreme circumstances, instead of spinning. Engineers (and lawyers, most likely) feel it's better for the car to push than spin. That's why I used stiff springs to limit roll so I'd maintain the negative camber I got through the camber plates when cornering hard.

At track days more than a few people asked me why my car sat so tall, compared to the more typical lowered VWs at the track. People are fixated on lower is better, and sometimes it isn't. If you want to go lower, TT control arms and spindles will help maintain geometry with the lower ride height.