Mating an awd drivetrain with an ALH (Build Thread)

Poor King

Well-known member
Joined
May 20, 2020
Location
NY
TDI
92 Jetta, 03 Jetta
[QUOTE"Andyinchville1, post: 5617819, member: 462939"]

I'm intrigued by this...

I came in optimistic, however I am a bit unsure as to how swapping a DRW gearset would change the final drive, when I already have that identical gearset on the DWX.

What would be the approximate cost of parts needed to do this?

I found a guy with a DRW gearset and he is asking $650. Then you have to purchase a donor car with 02M AWD $1000+, or salvage the awd from a parts car $500-800. Then the labor to swap the parts ($200-400) or you can do it yourself depending on what you're getting done. Adding a 6th gear to a 5spd 02M will cost extra too.

An approx breakdown would be nice ... parts / shipping costs (assuming slot would have to be shipped from overseas) / labor costs.

This is where I am stumped. I have a guy with the gearset for sale like I mentioned above. I also found someone who can ship a FWD DRW transmission over from UK. I just don't understand how swapping over the gearset from a DRW to my DXW will change the final drive--- I'm not sure if it's the large differential gear that changes the final drive, or the input shaft that is different between the two transmissions (see cutout pic below)

Anyone that has the understanding on which parts in the 02M accounts for the changes to the final drive ratio between the DRW and DWX, even though they have the identical gearset from factory, please educate me.


Also, what mpg loss shoulook be expected when going from fwd to awd ?

I would say a loss of 8-11 mpg depending on the age of the AWD parts. I will definitely refurbish my parts to like new standards.

Great thread

Thanks
[/QUOTE]

That single large gear on the far right is the differential gear which attaches to your axle's. The input shaft is all the way to the left (the two output shafts are seen in the middle portion) in this cutout. That input shaft is solid and the gears on it are non replaceable and built locked onto the shaft from what I understand.

 
Last edited:

MrDave

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 5, 2002
Location
1300 km NW of nowhere
PoorKing:
Don't confuse the "gearset", ie: the cogs that mesh together to transmit rotation, with the ring and pinion.
The ring gear is on the differential, and both output shafts in the 02M are the pinions.

It may be possible to use a newer 02Q transmission as a source for both gearset and ring and pinions to build an AWD transmission,
then the change would be to remove the existing ring gear from the AWD transmission, use the ring gear from the new trans, then swap in the input and both output shafts.

If you have the TT transmission and just want a diesel friendly ring and pinion(s), then both of the output shafts will need to be rebuilt to transfer the TT cogs onto the new pinion shafts. Fair bit of work.

-Dave
 

turbocharged798

Veteran Member
Joined
May 21, 2009
Location
Ellenville, NY
TDI
99.5 black ALH Jetta;09 Gasser Jetta
I would think you would be better off going to a B5 platform and then you have torsen instead of haldex. Problem is you are dealing with more weight but the platform would likely be better suited for that power/speed level. Plus AWD B5 parts actually exist in decent numbers in the US.
 

Poor King

Well-known member
Joined
May 20, 2020
Location
NY
TDI
92 Jetta, 03 Jetta
PoorKing:
Don't confuse the "gearset", ie: the cogs that mesh together to transmit rotation, with the ring and pinion.
The ring gear is on the differential, and both output shafts in the 02M are the pinions.

It may be possible to use a newer 02Q transmission as a source for both gearset and ring and pinions to build an AWD transmission,
then the change would be to remove the existing ring gear from the AWD transmission, use the ring gear from the new trans, then swap in the input and both output shafts.

If you have the TT transmission and just want a diesel friendly ring and pinion(s), then both of the output shafts will need to be rebuilt to transfer the TT cogs onto the new pinion shafts. Fair bit of work.

-Dave
Thanks for clarifying. I wasn't able to purchase the TT with the DWX in time. I think it was for the the best. I'll try to find a 225TT and do a complete DRW gear swap. I'll purchase a FWD DRW transmission and wait for the right donor car to come around.

I would think you would be better off going to a B5 platform and then you have torsen instead of haldex. Problem is you are dealing with more weight but the platform would likely be better suited for that power/speed level. Plus AWD B5 parts actually exist in decent numbers in the US.
I don't believe there were any AWD B5's here in The States. Also, there are a ton of Haldex A2's pushing 1000hp+ and they seem to be holding up just fine.
 

Poor King

Well-known member
Joined
May 20, 2020
Location
NY
TDI
92 Jetta, 03 Jetta
I have an AWD B5 parked in my driveway. :unsure:
You have a B5 (Not B5.5 w. haldex) with a manual torsen awd ?! That's a very nice car and extremely rare. The last one I saw went for $4,600 which was originally shipped from Canada.




 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis (where it's safe)
TDI
There are just too many to list....
I have a 2004 B5 (if you want the ".5" added, fine, but they had B5s in 4Mo trim sold here, too). That pick of the blue wagon is a B3. About a '90 or so I'd guess.
 

turbocharged798

Veteran Member
Joined
May 21, 2009
Location
Ellenville, NY
TDI
99.5 black ALH Jetta;09 Gasser Jetta
That's not a B5, this is a B5.(B5.5 actually) And yes they are torsen, not haldex. Latitudinal engine. And lots of 4 motion ones in the US. Volkswagen_Passat_sedan_--_08-12-2010.jpg
 

Poor King

Well-known member
Joined
May 20, 2020
Location
NY
TDI
92 Jetta, 03 Jetta
I have a 2004 B5 (if you want the ".5" added, fine, but they had B5s in 4Mo trim sold here, too). That pick of the blue wagon is a B3. About a '90 or so I'd guess.
I had an '04 Passat that I got rid of only two months back. I did not know they are torsen awd systems. I always thought torsen cars were referred to as syncro and 4motion pertained to the haldex variant.

That's not a B5, this is a B5.(B5.5 actually) And yes they are torsen, not haldex. Latitudinal engine. And lots of 4 motion ones in the US. View attachment 112740

I contemplated just that with my '04 V6 Passat 4motion just a few months ago. Knowing that the 1.9 tdi will bolt on to the V6 passat's transmission housing, I hunted down an audi a6 manual transmission which had a very similar gearing ratio to match that of the 02J's final drive. I ended up scrapping the idea because swapping the manual unit revealed final drive issues with the torsen's rear diff. And finding a B5.5 with a manual shifter (or the transmission by itself) will be a chore.

Then there's the transmission tunnel from the passat that you would have to cut out and fit into the A2 to fit a longitudinal swap, plus fabrication motor mounts, etc; seemed too cumbersome. With the Haldex unit, it's only the rear mounts that needs custom fabrication, along with the tunnel for the drive shaft.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis (where it's safe)
TDI
There are just too many to list....
The words "syncro" and "4Motion" in the VW brand, as well as the word "quattro" for the Audi brand, have absolutely no bearing on the actual system the car employs. All those words mean is the car is all wheel drive. That's it. So the B3 Passat pictured above, the B2 Passat (Quantum here), and the 3rd generation Transporter (Vanagon here) all were sold in AWD variants and carried the word "syncro" on them yet shared no parts and used three completely different AWD systems.

They changed the moniker from syncro to 4Motion some time in the mid '90s, not exactly sure when because it was during a period where no AWD Volkswagens were being sold here. Audi, however, not only never stopped selling AWD cars here since they came out in the early '80s, but never stopped branding them quattro (lower case 'q', as the word "Quattro" is an actual specific model of the brand). And again, all quattro means is the car is AWD, and there have been various versions over the years, some new versions have come out just within the last few years.

Haldex and Torsen are two brand/types that have been used, but not all AWD VAG products have actually used one or the other.
 

d24tdi

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2019
Location
MT
TDI
97 AHU in a Toyota pickup
They changed the moniker from syncro to 4Motion some time in the mid '90s, not exactly sure when because it was during a period where no AWD Volkswagens were being sold here.
Trivia answer: I think that change was somewhere right around '99 or '00. I remember reading the early preview magazine articles on the B5 4Mo cars as they were about to be introduced, and they referred to them as a Passat Syncro. Between the time those press previews were written and when the cars actually came to market, the name was changed to 4Motion. So whatever was the first year of the US B5 4Motion (at that time all V6/auto) cars was the switchover.

I assume Europe probably got the AWD B5 Passat models sooner so they probably had some that were called Syncros, but we never did here. IIRC the final US-marketed Syncro-branded model was the Vanagon, in '91.

FWIW: there appears to be a lot of confusion in this thread about compatibility of different platforms (longitudinal vs transverse) and platform names (calling a B3 a B5 etc). Just a note for anyone reading the discussion in the future to cross-check carefully any info you find here and want to use, some is good but some needs correction.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis (where it's safe)
TDI
There are just too many to list....
d24tdi, I totally agree, and I think you are right about the 4Motion intro, as the B5 Passat debuted in 1998, and there were no AWD versions sold here at first, and you are correct when they did finally get here they were initially all the ATQ V6 and automatic. At some point, the AWM 1.8t (what mine is) became available with 4Mo and even manuals were made available. Even the W8s, which were all 4Mo, had a manual (6sp) option.
 

redbarron55

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 10, 2010
Location
Navarre, FL.
TDI
2012 Touareg TDI Executive
My old friend Lee Hurley (holder of the pickup truck world's speed record) and owner of Hesco engine builders always said, "Speed costs money. How fast do you want to go?"
Car cost X $$$ squared = possible speed.
 

Poor King

Well-known member
Joined
May 20, 2020
Location
NY
TDI
92 Jetta, 03 Jetta
This will probably end up being my build thread. I found this 6spd donor in Delaware at a price I can agree with. I'll purchase the euro tdi gearing for the swap, then drop my 02J or donor 02M with US gearing back into this TT and resell it as a fwd...

I wonder if taking out the rear diff will affect the integrity of the suspension or the geometry.


 
Last edited:

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis (where it's safe)
TDI
There are just too many to list....
The FWD TT uses the twist beam rear suspension, just like the FWD 4th gen Golf upon which it is based.

If you removed the rear Haldex/diff unit, you'd still need to have the outer CV joints bolted into the rear hubs to keep the bearings together. And your donor car I assume will need a rear suspension too, so... chances are that TT will be scrapped :(
 

Poor King

Well-known member
Joined
May 20, 2020
Location
NY
TDI
92 Jetta, 03 Jetta
The last thing I need is to cross my finger and hope to part it out. Because it's adding up with what having to buy a Euro tdi 02m and all. This pic gives me some hope that all the links are without need of detachment when removing the rear diff.

 

Poor King

Well-known member
Joined
May 20, 2020
Location
NY
TDI
92 Jetta, 03 Jetta
I am thinking of using 2X4 (or larger) square steel tubing as a cross member and then fab a 1/4" steel bracket to bolt the diff to it.

What's the best method you've seen, or are there companies out there that already have a kit for the mk2 Jetta?
 

MrDave

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 5, 2002
Location
1300 km NW of nowhere
The traditional method is to convert a syncro rear end to fit the haldex rear diff.
Like DutchBuild



The mk2 is very similar to the Corrado, there's alot of info out there for converting Corrados.
Here's a good place to start.

If you aren't a purist, there are lots of other RWD or AWD cars that could provide the rear suspension system.
You'll have to use the Haldex rear diff, you won't find another rear diff that has the correct ratio.
I'm a fan of the E28 rear suspension, with the added bonus of a 4x100 bolt pattern.



If you are a glutton for punishment, or a good welder,
drop the top half of the Jetta over the Audi TT bottom half.
like here.


-Dave
 

Poor King

Well-known member
Joined
May 20, 2020
Location
NY
TDI
92 Jetta, 03 Jetta
Some great info up there especially the E28 conversion. What brake setup do you incorporate with that setup? I actually want to keep it 4x100 for sleeper appeal.

My goals for right now is getting the full motor build done with the euro 02M gesrswap and have the car moving again with fwd. I will have to tackle the rear diff at a later time depending on how far I want to go with reviving the underside; if there is any rust I need to get a hold of.

EDIT: cannot go 4 lug with VR6 hub and g60 spindles for the front.
 
Last edited:

Poor King

Well-known member
Joined
May 20, 2020
Location
NY
TDI
92 Jetta, 03 Jetta
Just realized I can no longer use a fabless crossmember for the awd 02M swap, which was originally good to work with the 02J. So now I have to hunt down a B4 crossmember which I was trying to avoid. That is, unless, if I get lucky to find one at the rate they are being picked up for swaps. If not: to purchase ANOTHER donor just to make it all work... I don't have the space for one car let alone gutting out a third one just for the crossmember (I already purchased a B4 pedal tree). Just doesn't make sense for my current trajectory in life. I am |--| close to scraping the high hp + awd setup to a slightly boosted fwd setup with the 02J 😕
 

Poor King

Well-known member
Joined
May 20, 2020
Location
NY
TDI
92 Jetta, 03 Jetta
I'm loosing screws trying to figure out whether I need a B4 Passat/mk3 crossmember to install the '03 ALH into a '91 jetta. I know of the 02M trans mount from dutchbuilds that would work for the mk2 crossmember with some modification, but what about motor mounts? Do I need to custom fab mk4 mounts to fit or are there factory vw mounts that would work on the stock mk2 crossmember?

I know AHU's are a direct fit on the mk2 crossmember however I believe the ALH swap differs. I am aware that the stock VNT turbo will not clear with factory mounts but that does not concern the high HP build with a 2260 kit.
 

Poor King

Well-known member
Joined
May 20, 2020
Location
NY
TDI
92 Jetta, 03 Jetta
Yes, I did earlier today morning and it could be done when they drop the new mounts next week..ish. They did not exist 2 months back when I spoke to them about ALH+02J fitment into their 4cyl crossmember. Once I got the confirmation, I paid the shipping company to bring in the donor TT.
 

Poor King

Well-known member
Joined
May 20, 2020
Location
NY
TDI
92 Jetta, 03 Jetta
Check this link ... https://forums.vwvortex.com/showthr...mation-Haldex-into-Corrado-(02m-Syncro)/page9

I have been smacking myself after reading that page. I did not salvage the axles or any other suspension parts from the donor MK4 Jetta. But this is the first time i've heard of someone doing a full mk4 front end conversion.

The donor TT supposedly has an aftermarket coilover setup and a decent fmic that I may be able to utilize on this build... now i'm thinking of cutting the firewall and going full MK4. But will have to wait and see if the Jetta and TT have the same firewall/heater box location/steering column placement and so forth.
 

Poor King

Well-known member
Joined
May 20, 2020
Location
NY
TDI
92 Jetta, 03 Jetta
Fabless team sent some pics of their motor mount confirming turbo clearance with an ALH in a mk2.



 

Poor King

Well-known member
Joined
May 20, 2020
Location
NY
TDI
92 Jetta, 03 Jetta
Guess i'll start posting pics from this past summer.. I've scoured the internet in hopes of gaining some direction on the correct way to accomplish this conversion, and the more I read the less I know.

Here's Dirty Diesel (previous owner named it). Leaky sunroof, missing side strips, you know the drill. Won A full set of Mille Miglia wheels + Bfgoodrich track tires for $1 + free shipping on eBay lol... Gave the seller $80 just because.





This was to be the first donor car. An autotragic '04 Passat V6 AWD I purchased for $1150. Had the cool W8 headlights. As I previously mentioned: the original plan was a longitudinal swap with an Audi A6 2.7T 6spd transmission to the ALH. Unfortunately the transmission and rear syncro diff had conflicting final drives so I had to ditch the Syncro swap and sold the car.



Here's the donor ALH '02 donor Jetta. Dash is in great condition for a car with 400k.




Started to gut it.. Off-the-top, does anyone know where that pink one plugs into? Found it unplugged when I purchased the car and drove it home anyways...


Mandatory carbon crust pic 😷




Wiring is going to be a horror show for myself. Guess I have to find some patience and WD40 to get rid of the sticky stuff. I salvaged the entirety of the loom from motor bay, to brakes, to rear tail lights. The goal is to retrofit it ALL into the mk2 as a complete swap along with the heater box, dashboard, cluster, and sensors.





PARTS LIST WILL BE UPDATED AS THE PROJECT PROGRESSES AND PARTS ARE IN-HAND. TOTAL I$ TAX+SHIPPING INCLUDED...

CAR/S
$500 -- '91 JETTA N/A 1.6 CE2 DIESEL (PROJECT)
$850 -- '02 JETTA ALH (MOTOR, FULL WIRING LOOM & MK4 DASH)
$1850- '03 AUDI TT(FULL HALDEX AWD, 02M TRANSMISSION, SUSPENSION, FIREWALL, PEDAL TREE)

$1030 -- Tow Services


MOTOR BUILD
$10 -- ACL CRANK THRUST BEARINGS
$80 -- ACL MAIN BEARINGS
-- CALICO COATING
$170- ARP HEADBOLTS
$330- 11MM FUEL PUMP

INTERIOR
$215- B4 PASSAT PEDAL CLUSTER (may not use)

EXTERIOR
$55 -- OEM REAR TAILIGHTS W/AMBER LENS
 
Last edited:

Poor King

Well-known member
Joined
May 20, 2020
Location
NY
TDI
92 Jetta, 03 Jetta
Making some changes to the original plan of attack with the build. I will try and avoid as much custom welding possible other than the gas tank. I would like to delete half the spare tire area for the rear diff, and use the other half as the bottom end of a flat gas tank (low cg design). This custom tank would be roughly 2-3" in height and take full/half shape of the trunk. It will essentially be the floor and hideaway under carpeting.

I am also hoping to use the TT tunnel for the driveshaft which I am not sure will work. Anytime I am in doubt or exhausted by the expenses I watch this vid..

 

Poor King

Well-known member
Joined
May 20, 2020
Location
NY
TDI
92 Jetta, 03 Jetta
Absolute brutal day picking up the donor TT -- went to pick it up with a friend and other than a few hiccups, the road trip went very well. That is until we got to my underground garage spot. One of the tires blew since the seller swapped wheels with crappy tires making the move into the spot absolutely horrible. At one point I forgot to take down the hand brake, lost my cool, and ripped the front bumper off in absolute anger and confusion lmao.

And to make matters worse, the seller did not mention that the front subframe was damaged. The links were also bent restraining the steering to turn properly. Then of course the steering rack snapped and we had had to move the car with a jack. The TT put up a fvckn fight. Hopefully the Haldex and transmission dissembly goes smoothly like the Jetta donor.

 

Poor King

Well-known member
Joined
May 20, 2020
Location
NY
TDI
92 Jetta, 03 Jetta
Just figured out the 1.8T clutch is a direct fit for the ALH and the TT supposedly has a stage 3 of some sort. Also has a fmic which is the proper size to fit behind the front grill of the mk2. So I'm not completely unhappy about the price I got it for. I'm parting it out and hoping to shove some dollars back into my pockets.
 
Top