massive engine failure?

AARodriguez Corp.

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My mom was driving her 02' alh today, it started to sputter, run rough and proceed to quickly stall and die. Towed it home, suspected the 109 relay, changed that, car still doesnt run. Removed the hard lines to the injectors they were squirting fuel. Stumped, I pulled a glow plug to check compression, and alarmingly I found a bent tip on a brand new glow plug. Checked compression, on one cylinder, 0 lbs, not an error either, I put my finger on the hole and cranked the car, nothing. Talk to me.....


Timing belt is perfectly tight.
 

Ski in NC

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Probably dropped a valve. Even if it threw a rod, gp tip should not get hit by piston. It could get hit by valve chunks. Time to pull head.

Has timing belt ever failed on this motor? Valves could have been kissed by pistons and thus weakened.
 

AndyBees

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Did you pop off the TB cover for an inspection there?

The TB could have jumped time.
 

AARodriguez Corp.

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yes took off the upper timing belt cover, everything looks great,
what kind of socket is used to manually turn the crank?

I know the piston is still moving up an down, stuck a stiff wire through the glow plug hole and check that...

so pull the head huh?
is there any point in checking the compression on any of the other cylinders or should I just start pulling the head? had to quit because its late...
 

AndyBees

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I believe a 19mm on the Crankshaft will do the trick. I would not advise trying to turn the engine via the Cam or IP bolts.
 

AARodriguez Corp.

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19mm? I'm not next to it right now, but if memory serves me right I think its a lot closer to 1" with a bunch of extra grooves in it.
 

chrisfiat

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sockets don't come with extra groves, they are either 12 point or 6 point, the one inch you used did NOT fit properly because you used a 6 point socket on a 12 point bolt. you want a 19 mm 12 point socket
 

AARodriguez Corp.

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I know I'm in a ****ty mood, but read before you say something stupid. I never said that I used a 1", I said that I thought it was bigger than 19mm.
 

AndyBees

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IIRC, just this past week, while changing a TB out in an '03 with the ALH engine, I used an off-set 12 point 19mm wrench to turn the engine over.

I cannot say for sure that the 19mm fit "perfectly." But, it did get the job done.
 
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Vince Waldon

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It is in fact 19mm, 12 points.

Has been, in fact, since the mid-1980's.;) Good ole VW lego.
 
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paramedick

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Newzboys said:
yes took off the upper timing belt cover, everything looks great,
what kind of socket is used to manually turn the crank?

I know the piston is still moving up an down, stuck a stiff wire through the glow plug hole and check that...

so pull the head huh?
is there any point in checking the compression on any of the other cylinders or should I just start pulling the head? had to quit because its late...
Valve has broken and bounced around in a cylinder. Only by pulling the head will you be able to determine whether you will have to rebuild/replace the engine, or just replace the damaged pistons if cylinder walls are OK.

Just out of curiousity, how long has it been since your mom had her timing belt changed?
 

AARodriguez Corp.

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They have only put 15k miles on their engine since they bought it, its at 170,000 right now, the timing belt is in good condition, and it plenty tight...not much to go on there.
 

supton

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n1das's BEW has a perfectly tight belt too. It just has several teeth sheared off (appears that the cam locked up or something). Just because the belt is tight doesn't mean that it's in proper time.

Do these have hydraulic lifters, or solid? [Cam followers, whatever they are called.] I'm wondering if you can tell a broken valve by how much lash it has--a valve missing a head will always sit tight on the lobe, on the non-lift portion of the lobe, while valves with heads should have some clearance.
 

turbocharged798

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You still didn't answer my question. It's doesn't matter what the belt looks like now. What does matter is who did it.

I guessing the last person who did the belt let the piston kiss one of the valves. Once that happens, the valve stem is weakened. The engine will run fine until the stem breaks off causing massive damage.
 

jasonTDI

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You shine a light down the GP hole and you'll be able to see the damage for sure. Or get a boroscope.
 

jettawreck

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Newzboys said:
I know I'm in a ****ty mood, but read before you say something stupid. I never said that I used a 1", I said that I thought it was bigger than 19mm.
With this kind of attitude how much help do you expect?? The guys that responded KNEW what size it required.
Anyways, since you have no compression and a GP w/smashed tip, it doesn't matter what the rest look like or what/why it happened. If you're going to fix it the head comes off, then you get a good look at it-however unpleasant it may be. Almost always when a piston has contacted a valve the lifter will show signs of damage. Depending on the severity of the contact it may be just "spider web" cracks or the lifter may be punched right thru. Removing the valve cover is fairly quick and if the carnage is severe it will be real obvious. If the valve broke because of previous contact (like during a TB change w/improper settings) the damage may not be very visible on the lifter.
Pull the head, access the damage including possible bent rod(s), and determine cost/desire to repair.
 

mrGutWrench

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supton said:
n1das's BEW has a perfectly tight belt too. It just has several teeth sheared off (appears that the cam locked up or something). Just because the belt is tight doesn't mean that it's in proper time.
__. And a belt like that can look perfect -- but have teeth stripped off at the crank; the crank will turn and smash the pistons into the head and valves all day, but the belt will look "fine" from the top.

__. This engine has every sign of *BIG* internal engine damage (at least as far as can be diagnosed over the Internet).
 

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There is no point in doing anything other than pulling the cylinder head right now. You know there's a compression problem on at least one cylinder, and that's enough to prompt a tear-down of the cylinder head to determine the cause of failure.
 

AARodriguez Corp.

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damage included
one broken valve
shattered lifter
minor indentation on the cam shaft
valve JAMMED in the head sideways
smashed injector tip
F*#ked up piston head, but not cracked
head has many marks from being hit by the broken valve

I haven't taken the timing belt completely off the car, but i was unable to manually turn the crank with the timing belt attached, no problem when removed from cam and injection pulleys.
 

jasonTDI

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Bore damage for sure.....

Honestly? Cheaper and easier to just get a used motor and drop it in. Put a new TB kit on it though when its out.
 

mrGutWrench

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jasonTDI said:
Bore damage for sure.....

Honestly? Cheaper and easier to just get a used motor and drop it in. Put a new TB kit on it though when its out.
__. yes, and in addition, that "bent sideways" valve is a probable indicator of a *very* solid hit on a piston top which translates to a likely bent rod. All this confirms Jason's opinion that the used engine complete is the way to go.
 

Franko6

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I've seen my share of these engines go through a dropped valve and not touch the cylinder walls. The fact the valve jammed into the seats is better than having it bouncing all over and creating more havoc. If the cylinder bores are ok, it's a cheaper fix by about $1500.

The head is likely trashed. The block may have escaped damage, but the piston will surely be trashed and the rod will be bent. If the cylinder is scored, I ditto what Jason says; be looking for a complete engine.

IF the cylinder escaped damage (not impossible), you can salvage the block with a rod/ piston. I recommend removing the next piston/ rod and make sure of rod weight and length.

Let me know what your cylinder looks like. I've got all the rebuild parts.

Btw: I've seen my share of this type of incident. I'm betting it was an exhaust valve that let go. What happens is the previous owner lost the timing belt, did a compression check and says, "It's ok." Replaces the TB and tensioner and calls it good. The Exhaust valve fractured from that strike and eventually broke off. If the valve didn't shake and bake too much, you'll see a 'clamshell' fracture going across the valve stem where it separated. That is the M.O. of a valve fracture.

Also, if you end up with a junk yard engine, get their return policy. No returns: no deal. Then take the head off. Inspect the cylinders and head. It's about $70 of parts but insurance you've got a decent engine.
 

mrGutWrench

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Franko6 said:
I've seen my share of these engines go through a dropped valve and not touch the cylinder walls. The fact the valve jammed into the seats is better than having it bouncing all over and creating more havoc. If the cylinder bores are ok, it's a cheaper fix by about $1500.

The head is likely trashed. The block may have escaped damage, but the piston will surely be trashed and the rod will be bent. If the cylinder is scored, I ditto what Jason says; be looking for a complete engine.

IF the cylinder escaped damage (not impossible), you can salvage the block with a rod/ piston. I recommend removing the next piston/ rod and make sure of rod weight and length.

Let me know what your cylinder looks like. I've got all the rebuild parts.

Btw: I've seen my share of this type of incident. I'm betting it was an exhaust valve that let go. What happens is the previous owner lost the timing belt, did a compression check and says, "It's ok." Replaces the TB and tensioner and calls it good. The Exhaust valve fractured from that strike and eventually broke off. If the valve didn't shake and bake too much, you'll see a 'clamshell' fracture going across the valve stem where it separated. That is the M.O. of a valve fracture.

Also, if you end up with a junk yard engine, get their return policy. No returns: no deal. Then take the head off. Inspect the cylinders and head. It's about $70 of parts but insurance you've got a decent engine.
__. Yeah, this points to the need for a "hands-on" diagnosis by somebody who really knows what he's doing.

__. Here's what we absolutely know -- There is catastrophic damage in this engine. What we don't know is how much damage is done to the cylinder walls or to the piston/rod(s).

__. If there's no damage to the cylinder walls (and that's *possible* -- although frank and I disagree on *probability*), then it's likely that rebuilding the engine will be cheaper than replacing with a used one. But until the damage/amount is known, that's a decision that can't be made. Also, OP said that the head is "damaged but usable" -- I would want to see a second opinion by a specialist who really knows these heads; my guess is that the head is trashed and unusable but the only way to know is to get a solid diagnosis.

__. Frank is also of the opinion that the piston is trashed and the rod bent. I'm going to guess that that's correct. It's not uncommon to see hidden damage on a piston -- sometimes, the crown of the piston is caved in (invisibly), sometimes there are cracks around the wrist pin which cannot be seen when the piston is in the bore, often a hit will "pinch" the edge of the piston down so that the piston ring is trapped. Any of these will mean that the piston must be replaced. Also, you should check "piston protrusion" -- the amount the piston sticks up above the head gasket surface should be in spec and the same across all four surfaces. But even if the piston protrusion appears correct (which will indicate that the rod is bent), then I would still pull the piston and rod on that cylinder to replace them. Until the exact condition of the piston and rod are known, you won't know how much work needs to be done on the "bottom end of the engine".

__. Newzboys, you *must* get absolutely a thorough, professional diagnosis of the items in red above. The info on this will make a difference in whether it's more cost-effective to rebuild the engine or get a used/replacement.

__. But, no matter how you go, you have BIG damage to this engine. If you can save any of the parts, you have to consider yourself lucky. But the only way to know is to have absolutely dependable diagnosis on the individual components. But until you have this info, it's all a WAIG. And, regarding the head, you definitely want to send this head to Frank for an inspection and diagnosis.
 
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paramedick

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Head will look a lot like this. If the cylinder walls are OK, you can save the engine with a new piston/rod, head, nozzles, glowplugs+ parts. I would encourage you to send the injectors out for inspection/balancing.

If cylinder is scored, find a good used engine. There are a bunch of them out there.

 

AARodriguez Corp.

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that picture of your head could be a mirror of mine, cylinder wall is unscored, scratched nor is it even slightly marked at all

buying new lower end and head...anyone got a good deal on a head?
 

jasonTDI

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You can get new AMC heads for $1000 or Kolbleschmidt ones for $1400. There is a local shop to me that CAN rebuild that head. but it's like $1100 MY COST!

Remember you need to replace the one time use rod cap bolts. There is a number stamped on them for weight but you also need to get the correct bank, left or right. They are different.
 
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