Major maintenance planned--need input

[Irish5]

Hi all! I am planning some major maintenance for my 2002 Jetta TDI (168,000 miles) in January 2008. I am looking for a bit of input from the TDI experts out there. I know for sure that I need a new timing belt. I was also advised to replace the serpentine belt and the lifters at the same time. After doing research online, I also saw that when you change your timing belt, you should also replace the water pump, tensioner, and v-belt.

So, this brings my list so far to...
timing belt
water pump
serpentine belt
lifters
tensioner
v-belt

Anything else anyone can recommend? I am trying to pre-plan for the sake of money, but also good maintenance. I would hate to not replace something that is harder to fix once something else is done, ie: not changing the lifters when the timing belt is done. Any advice you all have is great! Thanks!

 

[tditom]

Irish, where are you located?
How many timing belt changes has the car had? The N. American tdi for 2002 had an 80K mi timing belt set up. This can easily be upgraded to a 100K mi interval. You will need to replace the stretch bolts on the engine mount when you do this job. I suggest you buy the deluxe timing belt kit from tdiparts.com or dieselgeek.com.

there is no V-belt on a 2002 tdi. I would not replace the lifters unless there is a reason to.

 

[Irish5]

I am in Illinois. I am not sure when the last timing belt was installed, as I purchased the car at 132,000 miles and told to replace the belt at 170,000. I was told back in May that my timing belt looked ok for now and January was a good time to replace things. The lifters--not sure about their condition, but with the luck I've had, I'm erring on the side of caution and leaning towards just replacing them.

I am not planning on doing the maintenance myself (I'm NOT a car person), but have someone I trust to take care of things. However, I do want to get some other opinions about maintenance and what should be replaced and such. The more I can anticipate now, the better!

 

[Canadian_Grizzly]

Irish... inspect valves perhaps replace the cam followers. If on original nozzles..consider an upgrade. Probably time for contol arm bushings as well. Ever flushed the brake fluid, cleaned the intake, snowscreen? You should also order some vacuum lines to have on hand. For kicks throw on a two inch lift and a skid plate after you put on new struts and shocks.
While there are no listed trusted gurus in your state you are quite close (TDI speaking) to a couple excellent guru's... Jason TDI (look north) or Oilhammer (look southwest)... do NOT trutst a TB change to anyone unless they really know what they are doing and have the correct tools.

 

[tditom]

I would suggest you have someone take a look at the camshaft, if you are going to do the lifters. There does seem to be evidence that some 02 camshafts had a manufacturing issue. I'd still only have this work done if it is necessary.

So you don't have the actual maintenance history? If you are at 168K now, and are unsure of when it was actually replaced last, then I'd suggest having it replaced sooner rather than later.

Here is a picture/description of what needs to be replaced when the timing belt is done.

 

[2004STARWARSTDI]

Major maint

You will also want to replace all of the TTY bolts! Never put new lifters on an old camshaft. Install new lifters on a new camshaft. Flush brake system every 2 years. Clean egr and intake manifold. New filters all around.

 

[NorthernMage]

I would do the deluxe timing belt kit that tditom recommended, plus a filter kit and oil change on completion. Get some extra G12 coolant since you will need it to top up the system after changing the water pump. If you go to a Guru have them inspect the cam followers, if you have been using good oil IAW the VW recommendations they might be fine. Flush the brake system since it probably needs doing and is not that pricey. Have the Guru look at the intake and EGR. If you are in that deep have them look at the crankshaft seal as well, should be OK but you are 90% there.....

For fun I would do the injectors with PP520s or PP764s and then consider getting chipped later when your clutch needs replacement, since you will want to put in a VR6 clutch at that time to handle the extra torque and horsepower...

Once you see someone do the filters and brake pads you will be comfortable doing that yourself in the future.

 

[ymz]

In Illinnois: Matt Miks "MiksTDI" here) in Lake Villa is the go-to guy for timing belts and related "serious" work... If it's more convenient to drive to Madison, WI, Jason Daniels ("JasonTDI" here) is also a Guru... if closer to St. Louis, than UserID "Oilhammer" is the man...

Download the how-to for the timing belt change... for your own info... (and to possibly educate your trusted mechanic...)
http://pics.tdiclub.com/pdf/a4timingbelt.pdf and the checkoff list:
http://pics.tdiclub.com/data/517/5254timing_belt_checklist.pdf

As others have said, replace the Torque-to-Yield ("Stretch") bolts (at least 5) , water pump, and all 3 idlers in addition to the belt and tensioner. If you're not absolutely sure that this has been done already, do it ASAP !!!!

Timing belt kits (with the correct, updated 100,000 mile parts) are available from: www.dieselgeek.com, www.tdiparts.com, www.metalmanparts.com and www.worldimpex.com - among others... Lockdown tools are available from www.metalnerd.com - or from some of the above providers (one of them also rents them out)... your mechanic friend should have a Vag-Com already... if not, don't go to him !!!!!!!

All the best,

Yuri.

 

[whitedog]

Irish, the kit that folks have mentioned includes not just a belt and water pump, but rollers and tensioner that will give you another 100,000 miles before it needs to be done again. I am guessing that you have the updated stuff, here's why: First TB change at 80,000 miles. THe guy that did the TB change, installed the 100,000 mile kit which means that the next one should be changed at 180,000 miles. The previous owner was told, or is erring on the side of caution and saying 170,000 miles.

Anyway, get the complete kit done and be sure that whoever does it has a way to electronically verify that the timing is correct. (White paint marks is not electronically verifying.)

Personally, I wouldn't throw away your mechanic as long as he is trustworthy and is willing to read through and follow the TB change directions found here. If they say, (with a Mexican accent) "Instructions? I don't need no stinkin' instructions", give them Kudos for the Blazing Saddles reference, but go elsewhere to have your TB changed.

 

[Irish5]

Hi again. Thanks for all of the suggestions!

I actually did go to Miks last spring. Really great guy and knows his stuff! He replaced 4 glow plugs, but not the harness (he said mine was working OK), for $140 ($25 each glow plug, $10/each to install them--not a bad price!). Two weeks later, though, my car died while I was driving out of my parking lot. It had to be towed to a dealership (couldn't go to Miks because he is 34 miles away) and was told that my harness had died and that 3 of the 4 glow plugs had died as a result. So, $620 in repairs later, plus an $80 towing charge shocked me. A harness is $57 online.

While I would love to go back to Miks, I am concerned about issues with my car, as I drive 25 miles to/from work each day and need a car that won't just stop running. As much as a I hate VW dealers, I have found a great diesel guru at one here in the Chicagoland area. With Miks, I simply cannot hold him liable for a bad part or something that goes wrong with a new part--but the dealer does have a one year warranty on those same parts and can be held liable should they break within that timeframe.

Ok...just pausing a moment for you to all call me crazy...

I'm just a girl in my mid-20s with my closest family members 200 miles away and a tight budget for car repairs and emergencies. It's a difficult choice, but I don't know what to do otherwise...

 

[LessIsMore]

The worst part of this tale of woe is that the glow plugs are for starting the car, not keeping it running. You probably just needed something like a relay 109.

 

[rdkern]

I am really wondering how the glow plugs caused your car to die. In really cold environment, it might make it hard to start, but once it's warmed up, they don't do anything. Certainly can't cause it to stop running.

I hope you got the replaced parts back.

I wonder what really caused the car to stop. Relay 109 maybe?

 

[oilhammer]

Where in Illinois are you? I'd be happy to look the car over and give you an HONEST opinion.

As the others have said, a glowplug harness cannot cause the car to die, and I have never seen one that even caused a no start. Somebody took advantage of you!!!!

 

[tditom]

I am really wondering how the glow plugs caused your car to die. In really cold environment, it might make it hard to start, but once it's warmed up, they don't do anything. Certainly can't cause it to stop running...

this is not entirely accurate. Under 40 F, the gps are operative until you go over 2500 rpm, or until the coolant warms up.

If the cars timing was really degraded, and it was cold enough, isn't it feasible that the gps would be needed to keep it running? I agree that it's not a likelihood, though.

 

[meganuke]

Tom, you're thinking of the 3 coolant glow plugs, which I believe are on a separate circuit from the 4 main glow plugs. If the car is an auto, it doesn't have these.

 

[dabear95]

Yes, they do stay on for a bit up to around 2,500. The specs are around somewhere. I think you can hear them switch in the winter though.

I'm only at 103K miles now but I have to replace my timing belt at 175K miles so I am already thinking about what needs to be done at the same time.

I already did suspension, so I am currently thinking:

Complete 100K timing belt kit
New Cam and Lifters
All engine/transmission mounts
All contral arm/axle bushings front and rear
The regular stuff (oil change, air filter, etc)
I have newer nozzles so I would wait


Jason

 

[tditom]

Tom, you're thinking of the 3 coolant glow plugs, which I believe are on a separate circuit from the 4 main glow plugs. If the car is an auto, it doesn't have these.

Nope, I'm thinking of the gp's in the compression chamber. I found this post from DB:

..."After-Glow" on the cylinder glow plugs...

...is performed and lasts until one​

of three conditions is met:

•Engine speed reaches 2500 rpm


•Approximately 180 seconds have passed


•Coolant reaches 60oC (140oF)

DB

​

here's the relevant post.

 

[Bookerdog]

And the reason that the gurus get so much air time here is that they don't take advantage. You pay them a fair wage and you get the job done correctly.

You got hosed by the dealer who told you a lie that then caused you to mistrust a known good and repeatedly vouched for mechanic. Now, you're looking to trust these same people to do good work at a reasonable price AND stand behind it if goes wrong?

By the way, when the dealer says it will warranty a part for 1 year, they mean the part itself. If the Timing Belt or Tensioner fails, they'll be on the hook for the cost of the Timing Belt or the Tensioner. In most cases their lawyers will keep them from having to pay for the resulting damage from that failure, which in this case would be the cost of a new engine.

Considering the number of horror stories around here about botched timing belt jobs, we are suggesting the only sane option. Pay LESS for a QUALIFIED, EXPERIENCED mechanic to perform the job with a much, much higher success rate than the far more expensive dealer.

 

[ymz]

was told that my harness had died and that 3 of the 4 glow plugs had died as a result.

Pure fiction and an outright lie !!!! Do you have this "diagnosis" written down on official dealership stationery ??? It's very remotely possible that some other wiring harness (fuel pump, computer, MAFs) has become damaged on account of accident or rodent, but I sincerely doubt it.

The car dying suddenly is a well-known issue and the cure is a replacement of the main power relay (Relay 109)... If the dealership did not replace it, then your car _will_ die suddenly on you again...

A 40 mile trip to see one of the highly-regarded TDI-Club gurus is far preferable to dealing with a mechanic who may have questionable espertise with these cars. The knowledge base to be found here is much greater than any single mechanic's expertise.

Good luck, but I'd make plans to see MiksTDI more frequently... I'm sure he Vag-Com'ed your car when he had it, and any serious timing issues would have shown up then...

All the best,

Yuri.

 

[Canadian_Grizzly]

Guru not dealer...guru not dealer...guru not dealer...
Mantra needed after BS issue with the glowplugs! Don't worry about holding Mike laible for parts as the parts supplier should buck up for any RARE parts failures...most post fix problems are the fault of shop replacing perfectly good parts and not diagnosing to actual problem.
34 miles is walking distance to a great guru!

 

[Irish5]

I almost 100% agree with everyone you all have said here regarding dealers. However, I have to make sure you understand my situation. My car died at 7:30am on a Thursday. I am a single woman with my closet family several states away. Miks, a WONDERFUL TDI guru, lives almost 35 miles away from me and can only work on diesels on Saturday or Sunday nights. I couldn't have my car towed that far (while he was at work) to then have to wait until Saturday evening to have my car running again. I drive 12 miles to work and had to go to work on both Thursday and Friday. What do I do in that situation? While I would have LOVED to have gone to a diesel guru, what happens when I absolutely cannot? Also, my power relay was replaced over a year ago and I have had not one issue since the harness and glow plugs were replaced. I love this website and listen to everyone but have to take some of it with a grain of salt. I live in an apartment building, no garage, and money is tight for me, so I cannot take liberties with my only mode of transportation. I am planning this maintenance to prevent having to go to a dealer. I'm literally between a rock and a hard place, so please don't think less of me simply because I have to make some very tough choices.

 

[tditom]

That's understandable, Irish. People just don't want to see you get screwed over by a questionable stealership. The story about the harness taking out the glow plugs really sets off the alarm bells. completely understandable for you to go to a dealership for an emergency.

Since you are planning your next maintenance activity well in advance (for which you deserve kudos, BTW), then it would not be a problem for you to take make an appointment for the maintenance to occur on a weekend. Certainly no need to go to the dealer for that.

 

[MikeS_18]

Irish,

I hear you. But..

"$620 in repairs later, plus an $80 towing charge"

I don't have access to a GURU at a moment's notice either but have come to the conclusion that renting an Enterprise for 3-4 days will still be a better outcome than going to the dealers'. They simply don't understand these cars. A glowplug generally won't cause a car to die mid-stream and a failed harness won't ruin the plugs themselves. And a harness generally doesn't just die without throwing a code for months prior.

So we are all sitting here saying, well she didn't have another good option, but the dealer did their normal "let's replace everything remotely related to the problem and hope that we got the real problem" at your cost.

so the plan going forward is to arrange a time to see Oilhammer (my choice) or Mike again and talk to them before hand and get a full checkup with you timing belt done. They can tell you if you need internal work completed as well as bleed brakes, change all filters, even do an intake if they think it might need it. A Guru can do a HUGE amount of preventative maintenance for the $800 you spent already.

 

[Bookerdog]

Irish,

I'm sorry, sorry, sorry if it sounds like we're beating up on you. I for one was not trying to do so. I tend to vent when I read stories like yours where it really seems the dealer took as much advantage as possible in a dire situation for you.

We're glad you came back, you're among friends and we'll do everything possible to provide advice to avoid those situations in the future. You do have a choice for your preventative maintenance. You also have a little bit of time. One other option is to look around in the regional forums to see if there is a weekened Get Together (GTG) planned in your area. These tend to be a confluence of multiple gurus who can perform this crucial maintenance in a group atmosphere. That's where I had my last TB job done, and it was by the one, the only MOGolf.

While you're there, you can learn more about your car, get your own hands a little dirty if you want, or just sit back and enjoy some food among a very nice group of people.

 

[ymz]

That's where I had my last TB job done, and it was by the one, the only MOGolf.

Well, then, you have a problem !!! You now probably think that replacing a timing belt is a simple operation, as Glen makes it seem effortless...

All the best,

Yuri.