Losing my mind. Possible bad (new turbo)? Someone please tell me i'm missing something

[DieselgateDaily]

I'll try to keep this as brief as I can, but this has been a fiasco. I have a 2002 Jetta 5spd ALH. Has 254k on the clock, stock other than intake and random tune/egr delete. Use as a daily to drive around the state. I knew as some point the turbo was going to give, as it was the factory stocker. But much like the Seinfeld episode with Kramer running the car out of gas on a test drive, I just kept going.

Get off highway about 2 weeks ago, go to pull into my side street, and no boost. Pulled code p1556 I believe. I checked the normal stuff, and found a couple things. A vacuum line off n18 was cut through, the vacuum pump nipple was leaking, and the turbo actuator was shot. It didn't even hold 1psi. After fixing those things, and swapping the actuator (To hell with that "E-clip"), the car still had the same problem. I pulled the turbo inlet pipe, and there was enough play that it was time to pull the turbo. I ordered a vnt17 from maxspeedingrods, and it came in a couple days. Threw that one on, and started the car, same deal. No boost. I started to dive a little deeper now. First, I checked the vacuum on the turbo actuator, and it opens, touches stop @ around 18mg, and holds. Then I put on VCDS to block 11, and switch to basic settings to see it cycle. The N75 is working fine. I check vacuum at the canister, reads 25inches, and wiggle the nipple on pump, and this time holds steady since rtv. I thought I saw a crack on the brake booster hose, so I replaced that. No dice.

My buddy has a shop, and mentioned it was probably a simple boost leak. I decide to rip the front bumper off, and take the entire charging system (from turbo to EGR pipe) off, and bring it down to test, expecting a leak. Nothing. Whole system holds to high heaven. I happen to have another TDI at his shop that has no use for its stock side mount, as mine was full of oil/debris from previous turbo I never cleaned. I decide to take that one, powerwash it out as it was much cleaner. We test the system again, it holds again, and make my way home to obvious results of nothing changed. I get on VCDS to see what the map sensor is doing. In group 11 it seems that the sensor was bad. It would specify around 2000 or so, and actual range was from 999-1100 or so. (1psi near redline). I chalked this up to the map sensor being bad. However before I did, I shortened the actuator rod so it would boost more/sooner (Went on the stop around 7mg) and took it around the block just to see if drivability improved. It did marginally. I thought that was because it was making boost, and the sensor wasn't reading it. Made sense in my head. I set the actuator back to opening around 3 and full tilt on the stop around 16 or so, waited for my new sensor I got today, and popped it in. Nada. The same exact readings from this sensor as well. Only makes around 1psi near redline, and the car is basically undrivable. Just to be sure it wasn't any one sensor. I unplugged the MAP, and took around block, no change. I plug it back in and unplugged the MAF, ran a little better, but no boost still. (The MAF specs are way out of line, but I don't think that is the sole issue). I also took the wire loom back from the map sensor from connector to basically firewall to inspect wiring, it looked like the day it rolled off assembly line.

Welp, sorry for the diatribe, I really tried to condense it, but also walk through progression. Is it possible I got a dud turbo from the company? Is there anyway to further diagnose?

Oh, and the intake was cleaned/burned out, and I installed EGR delete right after, so there isn't any clogging there.

 

[DanEboy]

If you could read boost pressure off of the manifold (drill & tap for a nipple) and you see appropriate pressure there,
then I'd say you're not getting the corresponding amount of fuel to make power.
Could you have a clogged fuel filter or fuel line or pick up??
Bad fuel?
Clogged exhaust?

 

[tgray]

Messing with the actuator rod is not good. This is designed to travel a certain distance and the computer does the rest of the controling. Try to put it back where you found it. These kind of problems need to be tested out one step at a time. A bad MAF will cut everything down. A bad n75 will mess things up. Unplug the MAF and the car should run OK but not real great. I am not sure about running a bigger turbo without a tune to match. When you throw stuff at a computer it just compensates it out or pushes it into limp mode.
Hook a direct vacuum line from the pump straight to the turbo and listen with the intake open and see if you hear a different sound when the line is on or off. Check If the rod is pulling the actuator all the way to the stop - then the turbo is actuating and acting properly. Then move on to finding out why it is not being controlled right. No boost can be from leaks, bad boost sensors, bad air flow sensor, n75 valve, bad wires or plug connections. Even a bad ECU can mess it up.

 

[tgray]

Yes, like above post, starving of fuel can mess with it all. Like most problems it is probably something simple when you find it. I had someone I sold a car too crying to me on the phone when she took it to mechanic and the turbo was messed up and blowing clouds of smoke. The guy plugged up the N75 vent tube that fell off the air cleaner. After I walked the guy through everything he did to the car the problem was solved.

 

[tgray]

But don't assume the worst like an ECU. Start with the simple easy stuff and go from there.

 

[DieselgateDaily]

If you could read boost pressure off of the manifold (drill & tap for a nipple) and you see appropriate pressure there,
then I'd say you're not getting the corresponding amount of fuel to make power.
Could you have a clogged fuel filter or fuel line or pick up??
Bad fuel?
Clogged exhaust?

That is a great idea. I will have to find someway to tap into charged side and try and get a reading.

I'm pretty diligent about maintenance, fuel filter is newer, and it isn't starving for fuel. When I stuff it, it requests the amount of boost it isn't seeing (as far as map sensor), and you can see it crop dusting out the tailpipe. I will, however take the downpipe off tomorrow, and just see if that makes any difference.

 

[DieselgateDaily]

Messing with the actuator rod is not good. This is designed to travel a certain distance and the computer does the rest of the controling. Try to put it back where you found it. These kind of problems need to be tested out one step at a time. A bad MAF will cut everything down. A bad n75 will mess things up. Unplug the MAF and the car should run OK but not real great. I am not sure about running a bigger turbo without a tune to match. When you throw stuff at a computer it just compensates it out or pushes it into limp mode.
Hook a direct vacuum line from the pump straight to the turbo and listen with the intake open and see if you hear a different sound when the line is on or off. Check If the rod is pulling the actuator all the way to the stop - then the turbo is actuating and acting properly. Then move on to finding out why it is not being controlled right. No boost can be from leaks, bad boost sensors, bad air flow sensor, n75 valve, bad wires or plug connections. Even a bad ECU can mess it up.

I had returned the actuator rod to within spec (open 3-5inches, touching stop 15-18 inches). The maf I don't think is the problem as the actual number is always higher than the requested. It goes up to 1000ish when WOT. I think the abnormally high readings at idle are because of intake filter, and egr delete. Which is why I mentioned readings were off. However, from what I read, having lower numbers then requested is a symptom of bad maf. I also swapped that maf for another Bosch I had lying around and didn't change anything, numbers on vcds stayed the same.

Also, I checked the actuation of n75 on vcds. It cycles the actuator perfectly, goes all the way to the stop. So that takes care of actuator, vacuum line to n75, and n75

Thanks for the reply guys. This is quite frustrating.

 

[MukGyver]

Have you put a mighty vac on the line at the turbo coming from the n75.. I'm not sure about your turbo but my bv39 should be at full vacuum (wastegate open) at idle. You should make sure physically (not just with vcds) that you have the vacuum happening correctly. Are you hearing the faint turbo spin sound at idle or as it's idled up? If not I would get some fingers on that turbo (exhaust or compressor side) to make sure turbo spins freely physically with no resistance at all, check for radial and axial play. too I had a friend going limp mode from shaft play it bound against the housing.

 

[DieselgateDaily]

Have you put a mighty vac on the line at the turbo coming from the n75.. I'm not sure about your turbo but my bv39 should be at full vacuum (wastegate open) at idle. You should make sure physically (not just with vcds) that you have the vacuum happening correctly. Are you hearing the faint turbo spin sound at idle or as it's idled up? If not I would get some fingers on that turbo (exhaust or compressor side) to make sure turbo spins freely physically with no resistance at all, check for radial and axial play. too I had a friend going limp mode from shaft play it bound against the housing.

Yes, I have tested with vacuum guage at the turbo actuator, and also line off the n75 manually, as well as with software. It all checks out working the way it should. I will check the turbine side tomorrow when I yank the downpipe off to make sure exhaust isn't clogged. I will also check the egr pipe that goes from turbo manifold to egr cooler. If that had a leak, it would explain exactly the issue I am having with no boost.

 

[MukGyver]

Yes, I have tested with vacuum guage at the turbo actuator, and also line off the n75 manually, as well as with software. It all checks out working the way it should. I will check the turbine side tomorrow when I yank the downpipe off to make sure exhaust isn't clogged. I will also check the egr pipe that goes from turbo manifold to egr cooler. If that had a leak, it would explain exactly the issue I am having with no boost.

I don't want to dash your hopes on the cause being the egr pipe from the manifold, but I had fine boost with the bellows on that pipe on mine being completely busted in half for quite a while based on the exhaust residue in the area. It could definitely account for some but not all of the issue since you're talking zero boost.

And sorry, obviously I missed in the title the part about new turbo. I wouldn't expect bearings to be worn yet but good to check everything while you're there.

 

[DanEboy]

The cat could be clogged.
And I have heard of the internals of mufflers coming loose and blocking flow.
When you 'stuff it' what does it rev up to?
Does it rev up quickly?
Does it loose rpm if you keep it floored?
I guess you'll see tomorrow.

 

[Tdijarhead]

Is this the turbo you installed?

Turbo Turbocharger compatible for VW Beetle compatible for Golf Jetta ALH 1.9TDI 98-04 for GT1749V GT17 VNT

Buy performance Turbo Turbocharger compatible for VW Beetle compatible for Golf Jetta ALH 1.9TDI 98-04 for GT1749V GT17 VNT. Maxpeedingrods provide multiple Turbos for your cars and other performance auto parts, tuning car parts with affordable price online.

www.maxpeedingrods.com

If so you have a chinese turbo on your car now. I wonder why that won’t work?

From the sounds of the work you have done so far, originally you had a boost leak of some kind and a vacuum leak both of which you fixed and probably gumming of the vanes in your old turbo and a flakey MAF or MAF connector.

This is the difference.

Garrett VNT-17 Turbocharger (A4 ALH)

Factory fresh VNT-17 turbos from Garrett. These are the OEM turbo on the European 150hp 1.9L TDI equipped Volkswagens. The VNT-17 is an upgrade from the original VNT-15 turbo allowing you to...

www.idparts.com

 

[DieselgateDaily]

The cat could be clogged.
And I have heard of the internals of mufflers coming loose and blocking flow.
When you 'stuff it' what does it rev up to?
Does it rev up quickly?
Does it loose rpm if you keep it floored?
I guess you'll see tomorrow.

It revs up fine in neutral. In gear it is fine as long as I dont get on it, then it leans over and almost stalemates. I was assuming at first that was because there wasn't any boost that the ecu was requesting as evident from the crop dusting the longer I stay planted.

Is this the turbo you installed?

Turbo Turbocharger compatible for VW Beetle compatible for Golf Jetta ALH 1.9TDI 98-04 for GT1749V GT17 VNT

Buy performance Turbo Turbocharger compatible for VW Beetle compatible for Golf Jetta ALH 1.9TDI 98-04 for GT1749V GT17 VNT. Maxpeedingrods provide multiple Turbos for your cars and other performance auto parts, tuning car parts with affordable price online.

www.maxpeedingrods.com

If so you have a chinese turbo on your car now. I wonder why that won’t work?

From the sounds of the work you have done so far, originally you had a boost leak of some kind and a vacuum leak both of which you fixed and probably gumming of the vanes in your old turbo and a flakey MAF or MAF connector.

This is the difference.

Garrett VNT-17 Turbocharger (A4 ALH)

Factory fresh VNT-17 turbos from Garrett. These are the OEM turbo on the European 150hp 1.9L TDI equipped Volkswagens. The VNT-17 is an upgrade from the original VNT-15 turbo allowing you to...

www.idparts.com

Why wouldn't it work? Wuhan wheezer or not, even if I didn't hook up the oil line, it should still of initially made boost pulling out of my driveway before seizing. As far as long-term reliability? Oh yea, this thing probably wont go a year or 2.

If there is some inherit difference in the bird flu breathers that keeps them from functioning on the mk4 tdi platform that I am missing, then please expand. (Not being a dick as in, enlighten me kind of response, but genuinely interested).

 

[Tdijarhead]

:A local fortune 500 company has a big presence in China in an attempt to gain market share in that area of the world. They send many employees there on a rotating basis over the course of each year. A friend of mine included. As long as the company has a presence there and american supervision the quality is fairly good. Apple is an example of that. However with the advent of the Wuflu this local company pulled all but one or two of their people out of China, now they want to start rotating them back in and the chinese don't want them and are making it difficult. Humiliation of Americans entering the country under the guise of covid testing seems to be the current ploy they are using. They want the intellectual property but not the presence. VCDS has been pirated by the chinese and sold on ebay sometimes the pirate cables work sometimes not.

Without supervision which few American companies can afford the chinese build what they want how they want and send their cheap products here for us to purchase. Inferior quality control, inferior metals etc.

 

[DanEboy]

DgD, that's exactly how a clogged exhaust would perform.
Under 'no load' conditions there is enough flow.
But under load the 'after turbo' pressure builds due to the restriction.
The exhaust not flowing stalls the turbo.
If you could measure rpm of the turbo,
you would see the rpm's rising nicely under light load conditions.
But when you get on it the rpm's would drop the longer you kept your foot in it.
So the turbo barely spinning can only muster 1 psi of pressure (as MAP reports).
Sorry for your troubles, but I do like a good mystery!

 

[DieselgateDaily]

I took the day off to sort this mess. Just ripped off downpipe. Absolutely no change. Surprised how quiet it still is. The EGR crossover pipe is definitely not leaking as well. You can hear it spool, or try to, but it wont go past 1psi. I'll try and do a triple check of vacuum lines, but I'm fairly certain Tdijarhead is right, and you get what you pay for in this case. I just find it interesting that whatever previous problem I had, was the exact same once I swapped the turbos.

 

[jetta 97]

I took the day off to sort this mess. Just ripped off downpipe. Absolutely no change. Surprised how quiet it still is. The EGR crossover pipe is definitely not leaking as well. You can hear it spool, or try to, but it wont go past 1psi. I'll try and do a triple check of vacuum lines, but I'm fairly certain Tdijarhead is right, and you get what you pay for in this case. I just find it interesting that whatever previous problem I had, was the exact same once I swapped the turbos.

When you start car , does your VNT Actuator moving at all, it has to move to full close position?

 

[DieselgateDaily]

The VNT actuator moves fine. I tested it directly from the part (opens 3-5, full stop 15-18ish). I tested at the line off the N75, and through VCDS, which cycles it fully when commanded.

 

[Mozambiquer]

I've seen plenty of times where someone gets a Chinese turbo that doesn't work at all, most often with the Tdis. I'm not sure why, but I think it has a lot to do with the vnt mechanism.
That being said, that specific code is often caused by a failed turbo, and maxspeedingtrash has a very poor record in every aspect.
But to test, first verify you have at least 25in/hg vacuum, from the vacuum pump, then if so, connect directly from the vacuum pump to the vnt actuator, putting full vacuum on it, it should make boost or at least spin the turbo and make turbo sounds. If not, it's a bad turbo.

 

[nokivasara]

Does the ASV open fully when the car is started?

 

[MukGyver]

^^^1+ The ASV is normally open by a spring. so check it manually for smoothly open and closed. Unless it has been removed with the delete.

 

[PakProtector]

If the beast closes at command of the N75, the remaining question in my mind is two parts: what is the vacuum to the actuator whilst driving and(hopefully) boost is being commanded. The other is, if you wire the vanes shut will it still not boost? Don't take this on carelessly; it is quite easy to overspeed it. A short lower RPM burst ought to confirm boost levels...or not. No elevated RPM/high throttle operation here. Also, you can log injector open duration to see if it is giving fuel. IIRC my BEW tops out in the low 20-degrees, un-tooooned and KP39 turbo.
cheers,
Douglas

 

[DanEboy]

Remove the intake pipe to the turbo.
Does it make boost with it removed?
Can you spin the turbo vanes by hand? Do they move effortlessly?

 

[DieselgateDaily]

Appreciate the replies. As an update, I went ahead and removed the "new" turbo, and ordered a stocker 15 from idparts. For reference I don't have the ASV on car, just race pipe.

Also, I noticed my old stock vnt15 turbo still spun the turbine wheel for like a second after I spun and released it by hand. The "new" turbo turbine wheel stops immediately after I let go. I suspect that is exactly the quality one can expect from that company.

Hopefully 3rd times the charm. Should be here Thursday and I will update. If this doesn't work, I will bring back ghost riding the whip with the largest hill I can find. Part out for all.

 

[Hinzipwo]

Appreciate the replies. As an update, I went ahead and removed the "new" turbo, and ordered a stocker 15 from idparts. For reference I don't have the ASV on car, just race pipe.

Also, I noticed my old stock vnt15 turbo still spun the turbine wheel for like a second after I spun and released it by hand. The "new" turbo turbine wheel stops immediately after I let go. I suspect that is exactly the quality one can expect from that company.

Hopefully 3rd times the charm. Should be here Thursday and I will update. If this doesn't work, I will bring back ghost riding the whip with the largest hill I can find. Part out for all.

at least you will never order a ebay turbo again

 

[Mozambiquer]

Appreciate the replies. As an update, I went ahead and removed the "new" turbo, and ordered a stocker 15 from idparts. For reference I don't have the ASV on car, just race pipe.

Also, I noticed my old stock vnt15 turbo still spun the turbine wheel for like a second after I spun and released it by hand. The "new" turbo turbine wheel stops immediately after I let go. I suspect that is exactly the quality one can expect from that company.

Hopefully 3rd times the charm. Should be here Thursday and I will update. If this doesn't work, I will bring back ghost riding the whip with the largest hill I can find. Part out for all.

Sounds like that's the issue. Hope a good one fixes the problem!

 

[PakProtector]

I can tell you that the VNT17 I acquired from IDParts( the Garrett ), for my ALH did not spin for a second when I took it out of the box. Also, you should indeed set up the vacuum motor as described earlier. I sure had to adjust mine, and it was a perfect drop in for the VNT15 the car was built with.
cheers,
Douglas

 

[DieselgateDaily]

Welp, looks like the China choo choo boi was Doa. Back to alllllll 90. Thanks again guys. I should of probably done a little more research before buying some crap turbo. Just shocked it didn't even spool 1 singular time. Oh well, lesson learned.

On a side note, anyone want a really clean VNT17 doorstop?

 

[MukGyver]

Lol! Yeah not even spooling at all.. wow. Yea i wouldnt have guessed that was the culprit out of the gate either. Dont feel bad most of us have gotten bit once or twice by chinese parts before too. Glad its up and running for you.