lookin for boost logs, tuned and stock :)

[burpod]

over-fueling? unless my brain is all scrambled up today, it looks like it's seriously under-fueling. vanes are completely closed, yet it's not making any boost at all until rpms finally get way up there... i don't have any experience with a turbo that big, but it looks like either fueling is way too little, or the set screw is too high or something else majorly wrong. i know it's a big turbo, and those are small injectors for such a big turbo, but i would still think that if things were right it wouldn't be *that* laggy.

 

[burpod]

actually, never mind that, i just realized it had EGT in the graph. yikes!... that low rpm and it's not making any boost and EGTs are that high??? crazy... i don't know enough about the CRs or that large of turbo but something is way off...

 

[TurboABA]

I'm jumping to conclusions in the absence of data.... I'm seeing very high EGTs and we don't have AFR or injector cycle or anything else to use..... we just have a dead snail.

 

[adjat84th]

Tune was originally for 2260vklr on CRUA and boost was fine. Had the turbo rebuilt/upgraded at Pioneering Performance while swapping in the new motor.
Smoke is only a light haze on initial spool...definitely not rolling coal here.
Flow with vanes fully closed on the set screw is 90kg/hr, and it seems to spool up where it should. My thought was EGTs are so high because of how long the duration of these tiny injectors is, plus the lack of air to help bring temps down. These stock injectors are only good for around 230bhp

 

[TurboABA]

Can you read AFR?
Can you log EGTs\boost\injector cycle\IAT at the same time? That may provide some hints.

 

[adjat84th]

I can get lambda, and IATs as a pre & post charge cooler measurement (water-air charge cooler).
IQ, or by cycle do you mean some other measuring block?

 

[TurboABA]

Pre W2A shouldn't be of much use at this stage..... but if post cooler are high AF for whatever reason, we should know.
If we see what the injectors are doing along with lambda, we should be able to tell if you're fat as per my assumptions and possibly why.
You obviously want to work with your tuner to bring the requested boost more inline with what this snail can do in terms of spool if you don't expect a better response from it. I can only once again assume that the tune maps are based on the requested boost, so if the ECU thinks that you have all that air, it will attempt to give it the fuel to go with it.... but I'm just grasping at straws here without knowing all the details.

Are you still running the DPF? Because if you are, that will hide most of the smoke that we should be seeing if you are indeed fat.

 

[adjat84th]

Gotcha, tuner is stuck on their side. We're on the 8th revision of tune since install, and boost has only gotten smoother..just not hitting requested at upper RPMs. Car is straight piped all the way to the back with only a resonator in place.
I'll try and sneak out for a log later. Post charge temps were around 42C last I looked at them (didn't log though).
I don't doubt for a minute the expertise of my tuner, I'm just trying to rule out any other mechanical issues. They haven't responded to my last log where I made actuator adjustments and boost did at least stop tapering off further.

And sorry for the hijack..I can get logs from my ALH to compensate at some point, or provide some form compensation to @burpod when I'm in MA for work in Feb/Mar

 

[burpod]

no hijack, it's all good. like i said i don't mind a few CR logs to gain experience... i do hope to try and tune CR in the future when i have written my own ecu editing software. i don't want to buy winols or other software (expensive and don't really like it either).. probably a ways off though, life is busy. you're more than welcome to come to the cape and stop in for some tdi chat i should have my 6spd and LSD back in my mk1 and fine-tuning that, should be fun, it rips pretty good

 

[TurboABA]

@adjat84th
I know you won't like this post, but I've been looking at that turbo you're trying to spool....... I think your main problem is that you have a giant turbo that won't spool until next week on a 2L..... maybe you wanna swap a 3L in or something to help

I'm not saying that there's no value in trying to improve things or further diagnose leaks\issues...... what's you rail pressure doing all this time?

 

[burpod]

that does seem like an overly big turbo. i'm no big turbo expert, for a 1.9 or 2L i tend to think a 2060 is ideal as far as max power and general drivability for our size engines.. it should really make more power than you can realistically deal with and be much quicker to spool... my 1856 is great, a lot of turbo for the money, but at some point i would like to get a 2060 newer-gen type turbo. i just don't think a fwd car like ours can really handle much more than that without going crazy with modifications, but maybe i'm wrong.

 

[TurboABA]

If we simplify things a lot just for ease of discussion and power\spool expectation, you can look at rough charts\estimations posted on various tuner sites like DS

Based on that alone, we can see that his old lighter\smaller snail was expected to make the 35psi at 2800rpm.... he's managing to do that now with a larger snail.... so it seems "normal" in terms of response, but I'd still worry a lot about those EGTs.

 

[TurboABA]

Here's his new turbo becoming alive on a 1.5x M57 engine (both cyl & displacement) which is why I'm suggesting another motor swap above!

Hybride Baby - Child - Nursery - ToutVendre.uk

Free Classifieds Hybride Baby - Child - Nursery WUTI Wrap Baby Sling WMM We Made Me Baby Sling Stretchy Carr

www.toutvendre.uk

He needs some way more exhaust flow to get that thing going sooner that what he's got happening now.

 

[adjat84th]

Yes, I was not expecting big boost down low where DMFs don't survive long. I was hoping to have peak boost by 3k rpm with this larger turbine AND comp wheel (the turbine wheel IS lighter though), and this is still early on in the tuning on still stock tiny injectors. If we manage 2800rpm when all is done, I'll be perfectly happy. Car feels pretty great so far though!
To add probably the only other comparison motor out there, DS has this motor with CP3 and big injectors + 2872vrk that doesn't get to peak boost till 3300rpm. It made 356bhp/475tq on the completely stock motor.

Here's a log of some light, then med, then floored 4th gear pull, and 60mph cruising mixed in. (I forgot AFR, but know it's only hazy out the back glass under initial spool). Rail pressure is pretty steady at 2000bar all the way. That's not an issue.
Let me see if I can upload the csv..I may have to email since I don't see how to upload a file like that here on the site.

 

[TurboABA]

If we take a trip down memory lane, you can see that it's feasible that you'll get spool around what we are "talking about".
Seems like other veterans achieved this on less displacement and without your fancy lightweight guts a few years back......

Your turbo names have me confused, will this work?

I found this while browsing around eBay, will this bolt directly onto an ALH, I have deleted the EGR so that wont affect my install any. All help would be appreciated. Aiming for 160-170 with appropriate mods...

forums.tdiclub.com

 

[TurboABA]

OMG @ your EGTs.... and IATs actually.
I would suggest looking into lowering your IATs, which should in turn help you improve your EGTs.
Is your A2W IC choking the crap out of your charge side?

 

[adjat84th]

Injectors are maxed and open for as long as they can be = high EGT..though it comes down nicely once boost comes on and there's plenty of air going in.
IATs are actually lower with this charge cooler than the previous motor (it IS larger), but will never be as low as a FMIC type setup unfortunately. It does a good job keeping them steady, just not that low. Outdoor temp for this log was 8-9C.
Charge piping is 2" right at the compressor outlet then 2.5" the rest of the way to the charge cooler, one 60deg elbow and one 45deg elbow so I can't see that being any restriction at all. It's a very short path as well.

I'm hoping this is just a tiny injector problem and/or more actuator adjustment, but thought I would try to get input from others here. Maybe should have this in my build thread instead, but I certainly appreciate the conversation!

 

[m1ketdi]

Injectors are maxed and open for as long as they can be = high EGT..though it comes down nicely once boost comes on and there's plenty of air going in.
IATs are actually lower with this charge cooler than the previous motor (it IS larger), but will never be as low as a FMIC type setup unfortunately. It does a good job keeping them steady, just not that low. Outdoor temp for this log was 8-9C.
Charge piping is 2" right at the compressor outlet then 2.5" the rest of the way to the charge cooler, one 60deg elbow and one 45deg elbow so I can't see that being any restriction at all. It's a very short path as well.

I'm hoping this is just a tiny injector problem and/or more actuator adjustment, but thought I would try to get input from others here. Maybe should have this in my build thread instead, but I certainly appreciate the conversation!

Having a look at your logs the boost control is being limited and I don't think any amount of rod adjustment is going to totally fix your issues here. At 4000rpm you are 600mbar away from your boost setpoint and the turbo actuator is at 36%. And keeps opening the actuator beyond that where with this level of deviation it should be closing it.

Something in your tune is limiting the VNT position stopping it trying to make more boost, it looks like a simple max vnt position map to me.

If you look in your 4th gear logs with the adjusted vnt rod and before you adjusted, the actuator request at the same rpm is basically the same. - This to me suggests it's on a vnt position limit thats not letting it control boost.

How are you exchanging files with your tuner? If you want to share your tune and original file I can take a look and make some suggestions of whats going on. Or even just your ecu software number would be enough to let me make some suggestions.

 

[burpod]

... so does anyone have any *good* tuned boost logs they'd like to show off? surely someone has taken some (and not just a couple "good pulls").... of course more bad boost control logs are welcome, but how about some good ones!

after silence....me says in teacher voice...... "well then, i guess nobody is very confident in their boost control are they?...."

 

[DivineChaos]

... so does anyone have any *good* tuned boost logs they'd like to show off? surely someone has taken some (and not just a couple "good pulls").... of course more bad boost control logs are welcome, but how about some good ones!

after silence....me says in teacher voice...... "well then, i guess nobody is very confident in their boost control are they?...."

Lol. Me and my "bad" logs. Lol

 

[GTiTDi]

Yeah, I mean the only CR I would be interested in right now is GTITDI's

There, fixed it for ya

 

[dhangejr]

I tried emailing but it said Invalid file type. So I tried google drive, hopefully they are more useful than the last ones
the car is a tuned BEW, by whom? who knows, but its a decent tune, smart actuator,n 239n n18, and EGR deleted successfully.

logs for tdi club guy - Google Drive

drive.google.com

 

[burpod]

I tried emailing but it said Invalid file type. So I tried google drive, hopefully they are more useful than the last ones
the car is a tuned BEW, by whom? who knows, but its a decent tune, smart actuator,n 239n n18, and EGR deleted successfully.

logs for tdi club guy - Google Drive

drive.google.com

that first short little 011 log from feb 12th? boost control not good at all... wayyyy off

 

[dhangejr]

Good cal! If I remember correctly there was no boost at all cuz of this guy was busted

954AA9CC-C155-4645-91C9-0C792B69CB55.jpeg

• dhangejr
• Jan 15, 2022

 

[burpod]

that must have been a different log, the one from feb 12 (it's short) has tons of overboost, so not a vacuum issue... something is way off with that car... i think the n75 map is just totally wrong.

 

[dhangejr]

There is two on that date, one looks great, there is another one on the same date there is two places where the boos it of by .5 bar which is a lot, but if you look closely at the RPM you will see that I had just let off the go pedal.
Just before that (marked with higher RPM) the boost levels were accurate within acceptable tolerances.

So, I think you may be reading the logs too quickly and missing important data points.

 

[pkhoury]

I've been taking logs myself, and I'm concerned with how Malone Tuning's Stage 4 tune in my ALH works. I've noticed quite a few boost spikes from 24-32psi, but they stay there a couple of seconds, and my car rolls coal like an Alco in the process. The tune is supposed to work with a VNT17, but AFAIK, it exceeds the boost limits of that turbo. When I inquired about a custom tune, I was told that I needed to log block 11 and do WOT from 1500 to 4000 in third. Yeah, so I can overboost some more? That makes no sense.

Anyways, here's one of my log files from about a week ago-ish.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/a582jjnxo558r41/2002_golf_03-02-22-return home from grocery store.CSV?dl=0

 

[dhangejr]

I was told that I needed to log block 11 and do WOT from 1500 to 4000 in third. Yeah, so I can overboost some more? That makes no sense.

The reason you do that is to get a good stable reading of the boost requested versus actual. It’s even more accurate if you do it in fourth gear. Because it takes longer time to go from 1500 to 4000 RPMs you get more date which gives you greater validity in rehability.

 

[burpod]

I've been taking logs myself, and I'm concerned with how Malone Tuning's Stage 4 tune in my ALH works. I've noticed quite a few boost spikes from 24-32psi, but they stay there a couple of seconds, and my car rolls coal like an Alco in the process. The tune is supposed to work with a VNT17, but AFAIK, it exceeds the boost limits of that turbo. When I inquired about a custom tune, I was told that I needed to log block 11 and do WOT from 1500 to 4000 in third. Yeah, so I can overboost some more? That makes no sense.

Anyways, here's one of my log files from about a week ago-ish.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/a582jjnxo558r41/2002_golf_03-02-22-return home from grocery store.CSV?dl=0

wow, there's some very rough boost control going on there, yikes! i'm not so sure given the amount of overboost and 3bar map sensor pegging, *more* WOTs in 3rd to 4000 would be very safe... definitely beyond what i would call safe for a vnt17. i would think that log should have a bunch of plenty of good data to see what's going wrong. actually, WOTs really doesn't give a good indication of things. it will tell you of course, how max fuel is and the boost for max fuel, but that's clearly off. a better, safer way to get a better idea of what's wrong would be some lower throttle pedal plants (20-60%) holding for a good 5-20 seconds depending on gear + fuel). that should tell you all you need to know about what's wrong with either the hardware or tune, or of course a combination of the two.

the "engine-braking" when coasting in gear is definitely odd, and not very desirable or safe i would think (except for maybe a "race tune"), snapping the vanes shut at any rpm when you let off on the go-pedal?? i wouldn't want my turbo doing that....

 

[dhangejr]

I don’t know, I might be stoned but I think it’s trend is under boosting. Hence the coal…

And that log is mind-numbing to read. 8000 lines hahah, i scrolled all the way to 6k before skipping to the end too…If you really want some good logs do it right. Good hard pulls.
But yeah that must be under boosting…if your stage 4 is giving your trouble go do some proper logs for Malone. They have been nothing but helpful for me during my build. They read my logs before I was a customer just to tell me if my car is tuned. I’m sure he’s getting tired of that lol thanks Owen !

Any way to the OP I’ll have some logs , same car but new manifold , race pipe , FMIC , snd hybrid turbo instead of stock tuned. Tune will be the same tune as before unknown tune for stock turbo. It’s a really good tune imho cuz I can unplug everything and get no CEL even the smart actuator. Well not everything the MAP sensor makes it pissy as does the n75 or the fuel rail plug.