Long crank - BEW engine

[irvingj]

Thank you!! In everything I've read I assumed that was the case (that it was both a pump and a sending unit), but then I went to look in the book to get a better idea and found the above info.

Just finished the "check-valve" thread, will read the other later... That thread certainly describes my issue very well; I will try that first.

 

[Keystoner16]

Have you tried wiggling the cable to the crank sensor while the engine is running? I've seen similar issues where the insulation on the wires within the outer sheath has degraded. If you'd move the cable running from the connector on the front of the engine to the sensor itself the engine would sputter or die and inconsistently restart.

Yes. This morning I wiggled that wire with the engine running and there was no noticeable difference in how the engine was running.
However the car was undriveable and would stall every time the vehicle came to stop the engine would stall, and have to be cranked forever before it would start again, it even stalled on decel once. Still no codes. It's just ridiculous.

 

[Tdijarhead]

If this was my car before I tried the surgery I linked to earlier, I would put in a new crank sensor.

 

[Keystoner16]

If this was my car before I tried the surgery I linked to earlier, I would put in a new crank sensor.

Is there a way to watch the crank sensor in VCDS?

 

[arcking]

Is there a way to watch the crank sensor in VCDS?

I'm not aware of one other than watching RPM. If it's bad enough, you should see a code - also may have the glow plug light flashing when trying to restart. If it's still the original sensor, I'd agree with Tdijarhead that it'd be worth replacing as a test - though I would expect to see a code in VCDS if it won't start. If you really don't want to replace it now, you could also remove some of the outer rubber layer and check the insulation on the wires inside it - in my case, the insulation was literally falling off those wires.

Just to check - were you saying the condition got worse after wiggling the wiring?

EDIT: If you're having such consistent problems, it'd be a good time to start logging some data in VCDS during those episodes. Maybe start with measuring blocks 1, 3, and 10?

 

[Keystoner16]

I'm not aware of one other than watching RPM. If it's bad enough, you should see a code - also may have the glow plug light flashing when trying to restart. If it's still the original sensor, I'd agree with Tdijarhead that it'd be worth replacing as a test - though I would expect to see a code in VCDS if it won't start. If you really don't want to replace it now, you could also remove some of the outer rubber layer and check the insulation on the wires inside it - in my case, the insulation was literally falling off those wires.

Just to check - were you saying the condition got worse after wiggling the wiring?

EDIT: If you're having such consistent problems, it'd be a good time to start logging some data in VCDS during those episodes. Maybe start with measuring blocks 1, 3, and 10?

The condition was worse after wiggling the wire, however there was no noticeable change while wiggling the wire, and no fault codes.
I have ordered a sensor, and will replace it.

In regard to the the TSB mentioned earlier, I found the factory posting, and it mentions re flashing the ECU. Is this something the dealer would need to do? I checked in VCDS and the last 4 of my Component are 0282 so I'm thinking this applies to my car.

 

[Tdijarhead]

If wiggling worsened your problem then you may need to address the connector that plugs into the crank sensor. You could start with simply spraying some electrical cleaner/enhancer on the connection. CRC makes some , it comes in a spray can like wd40, and is available at auto parts stores or Walmart.

I think the procedure I linked to eliminates the need for a reflash, hopefully someone who has done this can chime in for sure. I have an 05 and apparently that issue was fixed by then. I remember reading about the start issue years ago and wondering if I would have the same problem, thats when I came across the procedure I linked above

 

[arcking]

In regard to the the TSB mentioned earlier, I found the factory posting, and it mentions re flashing the ECU. Is this something the dealer would need to do? I checked in VCDS and the last 4 of my Component are 0282 so I'm thinking this applies to my car.

What's the VAG Number? I'm thinking that 0282 may indicate that your ECU has been updated to 038 906 016 R, which would be a higher version than the 038 906 016 H I believe the TSB references (going from memory).

 

[Keystoner16]

Not sure it matters. I pulled the harness apart today, and it appears this TSB has already been done.
Next...

 

[MukGyver]

Not sure it matters. I pulled the harness apart today, and it appears this TSB has already been done.
Next...

At least you won't have finish it and make sure was a quality done job and the correct wire is in spot 57.

 

[Keystoner16]

Replaced crank sensor today, as well as the oil filter housing gasket as that was leaking.
Afterwards, the engine wouldn't even crank. It just got that "tak" from the starter when I turned the key as if the engine were locked up.
Eventually it turned over, tripped over itself for a while and then finally started. Ran it up to temp, and it smoked badly the entire time.
Getting pretty tired of this.

 

[MukGyver]

Replaced crank sensor today, as well as the oil filter housing gasket as that was leaking.
Afterwards, the engine wouldn't even crank. It just got that "tak" from the starter when I turned the key as if the engine were locked up.
Eventually it turned over, tripped over itself for a while and then finally started. Ran it up to temp, and it smoked badly the entire time.
Getting pretty tired of this.

I don't know if you have already done the thermostatic T delete. But since you're currently "in there" right now might not be a bad idea as I read they are associated with trouble starts. It doesn't take long for the return fuel to heat up and the T to send hot fuel back to the pump. You could go more old school diesel filter assy I hear that has no thermo-T (since you're in Oregon) and route the return fuel straight back to the tank. Or go with a kerma widget T.

Sorry that you're having so much trouble with your ride.

https://kermatdi.com/i-443-kerma-widget-mk4-bhw.html (I hear the seals were wrong on these.. don't know if they corrected it since)

 

[SteveR1953]

Keystoner,
Sorry that you are still having problems, just a word of caution on one of the replies--"You could start with simply spraying some electrical cleaner/enhancer on the connection." This is a good idea to clean the connectors but be careful with which product you use. Some of the electrical contact cleaners have chemicals that will destroy these older plastic plugs. This has happened to me with older relay equipment, I sprayed a relay base and watched it disintegrate in 30 seconds.
For the crankshaft sensor, you can see the waveform with an oscilloscope, use a small paper clip inserted into center wire on the back of the plug so that you can attach the probe, the other to ground. The service manual states that the engine will not run with a bad crankshaft sensor but will run with a bad camshaft sensor (just will be harder to start). If the new sensor isn't made by VW you may want to try putting the old sensor back in to see if it cranks any better.

 

[Keystoner16]

I believe I may have solved this.
After replacing the tandem pump, lift pump, crank sensor, fuel temp sensor, and the thermostatic valve on the fuel filter, I finally replaced my fuel injectors for a used set I found online.

I suspected a fault with the #2 injector because the only code I ever got on this was for misfire Cyl#2, also a couple times when watching Injector Quantities with VCDS on cold start, I noticed that the value for Cylinder #2 was maxxed out at 2.99.

As I was replacing the injectors I noticed a few things that supported this theory. First, when I was breaking the injector bolt free on #2 the center pin of the injector popped up as though it had been stuck down. Also, with all 4 injectors out and in a line, the #2 had far more carbon present on the heat shield than the other 3.

Now that the used set has been installed I have not experienced the long crank for 3 mornings. I am hesitantly calling this issue sorted.

 

[irvingj]

Keystoner -- may have missed it, but how many miles on your 2014 BEW? Just wondering if I'm going to be looking at GPs down the road. Currently have 158K on mine, soon due for a TB change.

Hope the different GPs cures your issue! Incidentally, I checked my battery the other day and only got 12.48 or so, a bit low. Put a trickle charger on it and the next time I went to use it it started right up. So perhaps I've just got a poor ground issue -- guess I'll be pulling the battery and checking that connection under the battery tray.

 

[SteveR1953]

Eureka! Good to hear. Maybe I'll take a look at mine.

 

[Keystoner16]

Keystoner -- may have missed it, but how many miles on your 2014 BEW? Just wondering if I'm going to be looking at GPs down the road. Currently have 158K on mine, soon due for a TB change.

Hope the different GPs cures your issue! Incidentally, I checked my battery the other day and only got 12.48 or so, a bit low. Put a trickle charger on it and the next time I went to use it it started right up. So perhaps I've just got a poor ground issue -- guess I'll be pulling the battery and checking that connection under the battery tray.

Not sure what you're referring to as "GPs", but I replaced my Pump Injectors, not my Glow Plugs.
Glow Plugs were ruled out immediately based on the symptoms, and troubleshooting.

The car has approx. 270,000 miles on it.
The engine has started OK for 6 mornings, BTW.

 

[irvingj]

Oops, my bad, you're right. Most likely a senior moment.

So I guess mine's a real youngster at only 158K.... Took it out yesterday and had to hit it twice before it would fire. Ran fine after that. Glad yours seems to be behaving!

 

[irvingj]

So I just went through the "re-establish grounds" routine.... the hard way. Didn't realize until part way through that it really IS necessary to completely remove the airbox first, but I got there.

After getting the air box out of the way, then it was removing the battery tray. Of the 4 bolts holding it in, the two 10mm wrench-size bolts on the fenderwell side were really rusted up and I thought I'd snap them off, but they eventually came out. The other two, on the engine side, were really clean and no problem. Oh -- and don't forget, another bolt & nut to remove for the Frost Heater I'd installed....

Once I got the battery tray out, however, I discovered there was the main battery negative-to-frame bolt, and then two more terminals, each of which had two wires with ring terminals connected to 2 additional ground studs.

Cleaned them all up and re-assembled the whole shebang. Ground connections weren't bad, per se, but I was able to get them cleaner than they were. Added dielectric grease, copper-based anti-seize on the rusted bolts (after wire-brushing them with a Dremel), and put it all back together. We'll see how much of a difference that makes with the long-crank situation. Can't hurt!

 

[bigjimpu]

had the same problem with mine ran fine during the day over night wouldnt start injection pump was dry turned out to be the check valve on top of the fuel filter u know the tee thing with the clip that holds it in is a valve that stops the fuel from draining back in the tank on bugs with diesel engines its under the back buy the tank inline