Lifting MK III Suspension for Rallying or Offroad

[cowboyjack]

There has been a very interesting thread over on Upgrades/Non TDi engine about lifting a VW MKIV for offroad use.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=269310

It has generated over twelve pages of responses and more than 4,000 views, so obviously there is some interest in this.

Sure, metalnerd has the lift kit for MK IVs, but what about the MK III?

We are moving back to the ranch and I love my 98 Jetta, but could really use another 4 to 6 inches of ground clearance to really be able to drive it on our 2 and a half miles of really bad dirt road, especially during the monsoon/mud season. (Yes, I have a 4x4 truck, but have a 105 mile commute once I hit the pavement and it is hard to beat the TDI for mileage.)

Frankencar posted some fairly clear directions on how to lift a MKIII, but I was interested in seeing if others had experience or ideas on this?

VR6 Springs and HD Bilsteins and bigger tires... what else? How much lift can you reasonably run? What is the largest diameter tire folks are running? Anybody trimmed their wheel wells?

Thanks in advance.

 

[KLXD]

This deserves to be bumped.

And answered, of course.

 

[cowboyjack]

Any thoughts? Still looking at options.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Frankencar]

Bringing this back from the dead... If you are still interested in lifting your MKIII - all the springs from a B4 Passat wagon VR6 and the rear upper strut hardware from the same car will give a MK3 a nice lift. This is a car I helped a friend here at work lift with that method:

Lifted 1997 VW Jetta TDI

and here is the YouTube playlist of it in action:

Lifted 97 VW Jetta TDI Offroad Adventures

 

[algirdas]

I think some Mk3 VR6 suspensions were called 'Plus 1', the track width being an inch wider than the suspensions with the other engine options.
I'm guessing the extra width may help with front control arm angles and such.

 

[Frankencar]

The plus suspension locates the ball-joint forward about 3/4 inch. it also places it almost an inch lower and an inch further out - but does not increase track width. It would be a very bad idea for offroad use as it's optimized for a lower ride-height. It is howerver a very good idea for fast road or track use.

 

[algirdas]

Aha, Thanks frankencar!
I knew plus suspension was significant, but didnt realize what all it changed.
Is there more caster from the ball joint move?

 

[Frankencar]

Sure is. Almost 3 degrees more caster. Thats why it's so good for street use.

 

[TronDD]

How much travel do the stock suspension arms have? The higher you go using springs and spacer, the less suspension drop you have.

Tim.

 

[Frankencar]

How much travel do the stock suspension arms have? The higher you go using springs and spacer, the less suspension drop you have.

Tim.

the stock shocks/struts offer aobut 6-7" and when lifted properly you move the static ride height from dead center in that travel to a 4.5 droop - 2.0 compression bias... The majority of the lift comes from the front strut tube mod (if you want it that high - use early MKII tubes and insterts) and rear passat rear shock hardware.

 

[roots17]

Bringing this back from the dead... If you are still interested in lifting your MKIII - all the springs from a B4 Passat wagon VR6 and the rear upper strut hardware from the same car will give a MK3 a nice lift. This is a car I helped a friend here at work lift with that method:

Lifted 1997 VW Jetta TDI

and here is the YouTube playlist of it in action:

Lifted 97 VW Jetta TDI Offroad Adventures

Bringing it back from the dead again!

So I have been looking into doing this since my washboard roads tore my suspension apart. Not sure exactly what i need to get. Looking for the minimum right now as money is tight but need to replace front end. I have a stock 98 jetta.

So should i get 98 passat vr6 sohc struts and springs? Cant afford the bilstein HD's right now would the TC's be too weak? Also hoping to only do the front right now, is that okay besides looking weird? And will these bolt right in? have to change my ball joints too, should i stick with jetta joints?

 

[Abacus]

The '98 Passat is the B5 and completely different from the '97 Passat, which is a B4 platform. You want the parts from a '95-'97 Passat VR-6.

 

[Frankencar]

the HD's will give you many miles of life on bad roads, while others may not. And Abacus is correct - you need B4 Passat springs. the MK3 ball joints are right for you as well.

 

[roots17]

Nice thanks guys! gonna order some parts now and get my baby on the road again.

Well thought i was going too. Any good links for parts? Idparts only have diesel parts. the link on Frankencar's page as well as most i look at don't have springs avail... do i use B4 passat springs on mk3 jetta struts, wouldn't think so tho?

 

[Frankencar]

Nice thanks guys! gonna order some parts now and get my baby on the road again.

Well thought i was going too. Any good links for parts? Idparts only have diesel parts. the link on Frankencar's page as well as most i look at don't have springs avail... do i use B4 passat springs on mk3 jetta struts, wouldn't think so tho?

get the springs used from a junk-yard. That might help you afford the better HD's too. and yes, MK3 struts work well with B4 springs.

 

[roots17]

get the springs used from a junk-yard. That might help you afford the better HD's too. and yes, MK3 struts work well with B4 springs.

cool thx for the quick replies and help. Wasn't sure if junk yards were good for suspension parts but guess the springs last longer...gonna try for low miles obviously. found one pair with 90k sounds like alot... been researching for 4 days now a lot of info if you know the terms used... lol.

So b4 Vr6 springs front and rears, do i NEED the upper rear strut mounting hardware from VR6 as well? or mk3 bilsteins hd for fronts and rears and mounting hardware. good to go...
will this lift just 1-2" (i have read about before) or the 5 to 6" you mention earlier? Don't mean to ask too many questions just not familer with suspension systems and want to make sure i get it right.

 

[Frankencar]

cool thx for the quick replies and help. Wasn't sure if junk yards were good for suspension parts but guess the springs last longer...gonna try for low miles obviously. found one pair with 90k sounds like alot... been researching for 4 days now a lot of info if you know the terms used... lol.

So b4 Vr6 springs front and rears, do i NEED the upper rear strut mounting hardware from VR6 as well? or mk3 bilsteins hd for fronts and rears and mounting hardware. good to go...
will this lift just 1-2" (i have read about before) or the 5 to 6" you mention earlier? Don't mean to ask too many questions just not familer with suspension systems and want to make sure i get it right.

Yard parts are plenty good. . You have the correct parts list. front mounting bits are the same for both cars. rear B4 stuff is a bit different - and you should be using the B4 rear bits. get those at the J-yard along with the springs. You will need to drill 2 holes to use these, it's quite apparent once you see them. you may need to trim a dead coil or two out of the rear to get it to sit level. springs should get you up about 2.5" or so... not 100% sure on a MK3. it's a few lbs heavier than my MKII's.

 

[roots17]

nice thx for all the info Frankencar! I'm sure it took you many hours of labor to figure this all out... Found a full set of 4 vr6 springs and struts, shocks for $200 locally. Not confident about cutting them but a local shop makes custom springs so maybe they'll do it for me... Also considering doing a oem setup right now to get on the road and then can afford to do the whole front end tie rod ends a arm bushings etc... which ever way i go I'm very thankful for the help! and will do this lift soon

 

[BrianIsdale]

I did it and heres some pictures for the visual learners!

So this thread helped me a lot. However I'm going to share my pictures of my golf so anyone who views this thread in the future has some visuals to go off of.
After a month of searching I found a 1997 B4 VR6 passat wagon at a scrap yard and pulled the struts and springs from it. I had originally found a sedan and the hight of the struts were the same as the wagon but the springs were weaker in the back. I didn't get the sedan parts and instead found a wagon (long story). Anyways I didn't need it to be a wagon because I bought the Monroe heavy duty rear springs from the UK amazon. I had no issue getting them delivered to my USA address in California and it was not very expensive to ship. It also came relatively quickly seeing as I've heard of people waiting months for Chinese products to ship.
Here is the thread about the Heavy Duty Monroe Springs: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=396657
I would have done the installation my self if I had the time and a lift however my apartment doesn't allow people to work on cars for good reason. So I had my mechanic that I have do all my things I cant try the installation.
He did a great job drilling the 4 holes (2 per rear strut) however both of us over looked the need to reset the neutral position of the bushings on the rear. You have to raise the car, loosen the bushings, then lower the car completely (so that it is resting at your new neutral ride hight) and then re-torque. This will keep your bushings from being twisted and over stressed.
I put the rear struts from the passat with the monroe springs in the back and then the stock passat front springs on the golf/jetta struts on the front. This gave the car a very un-even level but its acceptable but I am going to measure the passat front struts to see if they would add any hight to the front. I didn't put the passat struts on in the front because it would require re-aligning my car and my mechanic doesn't have the tools for that. However I'm now taking college auto classes and have access to the alignment equipment and if the passat struts are longer then the golf/jetta ones then I will put them on and post my success.
I also put some 3/4inch spacers on to stance it out a little for stability however the car was very stable without them and the ride with the heavy duty springs was comfortable. Also it do not feel like your leaning forward at all when your sitting in any of the seats.
I did this because my golf would bottom out if I had 4 people in it and I wanted to have a roof rack and get a hitch so I could have a hitch rack and tow small loads. My trunk is full of 2 12" subwoofers and amps for my sound system (they weighted down the back a lot as well)
Here is the pictures of my now practical golf (go to my google plus album to see them larger)
https://plus.google.com/photos/103201959622326098124/albums/6246215073095058561

 

[dbrownjr]

Success!

Hey there everybody,
Just tonight I successfully installed B4/VR6 springs and struts on my Jetta MK3. I found used struts/springs online from a junkyard a couple hours from where I live. They charged $30 per combo and $25 for shipping. Being a beat up old jetta that I drive, with worn out suspension, I took a chance on the used struts and installed them. No problem and improved performance! I'd say that I got about 3"-4" inches of lift in the front and at least 6'' in the back. Pretty sure these came off of a vr6 wagon

A couple notes for anyone attempting this:
- I couldn't get the nuts off the top of the front struts w/o an impact wrench.
- I'm sure there's got to be a good way to drill the rear holes. I don't know what that is

Thanks to everybody for sharing their tips on this project. It definitely makes my short list of complaints about these cars one item less!





David

 

[Rig]

The '98 Passat is the B5 and completely different from the '97 Passat, which is a B4 platform. You want the parts from a '95-'97 Passat VR-6.

Alright, at some point this year I want to do this mod. I will be living on a washboard dirt road and could use some really decent suspension. Lifting the car a bit I think would be preferable, as I tend to carry a lot of weight in the car. I also tend to go offroad for work or for camping etc... the car sits REALLY low stock so I think raising the car a couple of inches wouldn't be too extreme.

Putting together a shopping list

I managed to locate some Bilstein HD struts and shocks here: https://www.cascadegerman.com/product/strut-assembly-mk3-bilstein-hd/

For springs, I think I want these correct? https://www.idparts.com/complete-sp...357411105n-3a9511105d-39102-39053-p-4830.html What is the towing option? I do plan to tow a small work trailer.

Now for mounting hardware. What all do I need from this page? https://www.idparts.com/bushings-mounts-c-36_66.html

Is it just this? https://www.idparts.com/kyb-rear-shock-mount-kit-sm5197-p-1329.html

 

[turbodieseldyke]

For the rears, I kept the Jetta shocks and mounts. Not sure if B4 wagon springs would be too big. I needed to trim some (less than a loop I think) off B4 sedan rear springs to fit my Jetta. I gained 4" in the back, iirc. I never touched the fronts, so I have no idea what you'd need. Lifting the rear automatically lifted the front a bit, but you might want/need more.

Curt makes (made) a hitch for the Mk3 (1.25inch) #11011, i think. I almost installed it, but I preferred the one i found in a junkyard (2inch, homemade).

 

[Abacus]

Can the B4 and A3 use the same springs? I thought they were a much different setup in the rear.

I'm running the Bilstein HD's in my wagon with HD wagon springs from England and it finally doesn't sag. I don't carry tools around in my wagon like I used to, so it rides a bit harsh on bumpy roads. I also tow with it and with more weight on it does fine, but solo you can tell it's stiff.

The HD springs have an extra coil in them so they don't sag as much.

I installed B4V springs in my B4 sedan and it lifted it just over an inch but the ride didn't suffer. I really liked the way it rode but didn't sag. The close car in the below picture is my wife's B4 with stock springs and the car in the back has the stock TDI wagon springs in the rear, and the trunk it loaded down with tools and junk. Both cars have the same tires & wheels on them.

I'm taking my rear tow hitch off and having a 2" receiver welded on in place of the 1.25" since everything we own has a 2" receiver.

 

[turbodieseldyke]

Can the B4 and A3 use the same springs? I thought they were a much different setup in the rear.

Confirmed. Need to remove some of the top loop, to fit the A3 mount. I've got two A3's riding on B4 (sedan) rear springs.

 

[Rig]

Confirmed. Need to remove some of the top loop, to fit the A3 mount. I've got two A3's riding on B4 (sedan) rear springs.

I'm just trying to figure out the exact setup for my car. Since I'm buying new parts I don't have money to burn "reinventing the wheel" or purchasing parts I don't need or wont work. So I want to be absolutely sure about what I'm buying and how to install it.

I've got an a3 jetta sedan. Would the b4 passat wagon springs be a good choice with the mounting hardware I linked to if I'm using the mk3 bilstein HD shocks? Do I need anything else to make the springs fit? I think others above mentioned drilling two holes.

And should I go with the b4 wagon spring in the front as well? The front end tends to get the most accidental ground contact on my car which worries me >.> Previous posts in this thread indicate that is a good plan and will lift me 2-3 inches which is what I'm after.

If I have to trim the springs I don't think that will be an issue. I'd rather not install and then reinstall only to install again but maybe its not that bad. I don't think anyone else above had to trim the springs to fit.

Second question is: Are those Bilstein HD struts I linked to what I actually want, or do I want the Bilsteins made for the B4 or does it matter?

Frankencar says this:

B4 stuff is a bit different - and you should be using the B4 rear bits.

Just unsure what "B4 rear bits" actually refers to.

 

[turbodieseldyke]

B4 shocks have a different diameter bolt hole at the bottom, so you'd need a sleeve. B4 shocks will also require B4 mount "bits" at the top end. I would keep it simple, and keep the A3 shocks & mounts. It worked well enough the first time, that i repeated it on the 2nd car 5 years later.

No idea about rear B4 wagon springs. Sedans were plenty good enough. Also have no idea about B4 stuff on the front. Frankencar is probably the guru for that. I'm sure someone else has probably done a front&back B4 setup on their A3, and written it up.

 

[volksguy]

Were do you get B4 rear Shock Top parts i would buy them all. Cant seam to find them anywhere but Used.

 

[turbodieseldyke]

If you do go the full B4 route, make sure you find a complete write-up by someone who used 100% B4 on the A3. There must be modifications you'll need to do.

 

[Rig]

If you do go the full B4 route, make sure you find a complete write-up by someone who used 100% B4 on the A3. There must be modifications you'll need to do.

Yeah, without a thorough write up or a video, I am reluctance to mix and match.

What are thoughts on Bilstein B6 vs the HDs? Are they equivilant or what is the difference?

 

[Phi1osopher]

Almost two years ago I lifted my B4 wagon about 3" and have been 100% happy with it.

I successfully lifted my B4V Passat about 3"

Here's my freshly lifted '96 B4V Passat, Tulbirt. (Tulbirt is an acronym for "The Ultimate Low-Budget International Road Trip." ) My goal here is a simple increase of ground clearance for driving on poorly maintained non-paved roads while maintaining the best road touring handling possible. I...

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