Lift/Inline Pump Options

FormerOwner

Veteran Member
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Apr 16, 2006
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Alabama
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2013 Passat TDI SE 6spd; Former Owner 02 MkIV wagon
I really liked my F.A.S.S. pump on my old Cummins Dodge. If that's too expensive for ya, you can find one from Jeg's, or any of the Hot Rod catalog shops that compete with Jeg's... you just have to figure out how much flow you want... GPH is the key value.
 

robnitro

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Jan 19, 2004
Location
NYC area, NY
TDI
2001 Jetta TDI GLS silver
What's the flow rate of our ve pumps with normal return?
I don't think the facet or mr gasket are enough imho....
If you can hook up a pressure gauge to the IP inlet, you can see if it holds pressure at higher rpm (5000 rpm) when the vane pump is maxing out. (fuel consumption is not the issue, its how much the pump flows).
I plan to do that with my low gph solenoid carter pump w limited fuel return (75% looped fuel) on Sunday to be sure that I'm getting positive pressure at high rpm.
 

darkscout

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May 28, 2006
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Michigan
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2003 Golf
Say you get 25 MPG at 60 MPH. That's 2.5 GPH. Say under full tilt you have 10 GPH consumed.

Mine will flow 20 GPH. (They have 30 & 40 GPH, but at a higher pressure).

Plus it flows through, mine car runs just fine without the pump even on. Mine is to more make sure the whole car is 'primed' and ready to go in the cold and to assist pushing through the 1 micron filter. If you were really concerned you could loop the return back to after the pump, before the filter then set a pressure regulator on the return line to the tank.

That would guarantee the pump always saw a certain pressure X and it would be using itself as a push pump (instead of a pull pump) in that condition.

 

robnitro

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NYC area, NY
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2001 Jetta TDI GLS silver
Yep, that's almost how I'm set up.

But instead of a relief valve, I have a somewhat restrictive check valve to keep some pressure. Since I haven't needed a boost valve after retuning myself, I think I'll use that as my relief valve, set to 2 psi or so. Thanks for the idea.
 

dantro

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Sep 27, 2009
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South UK
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transporter 88
I have one of the Facet posi flo pumps fitted on mine as it suffered quite badly with fueling when around 4-5k and surged/stalled when up there, with the new pump fitted I no longer get this just a nice acceleration all through the revs, no problems so far in 3-4 months of use but still early days.
 

bassman5066

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Apr 8, 2011
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Honey Brook PA
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2011 Golf 2 Door TDI (sold back for Dieselgate), 91 Golf 4 Door with 1Z swap
I currently have the Facet Gold Flow on my 1Z. When I installed, I tested 8 psi key on engine off, 2-4 psi idling, 1 psi WOT @ 3500 RPM. I think this pump will just keep up with my current setup, (before I tore it apart...) which was PP764 nozzles, Malone stage 3, stock garrett turbo @ 18psi.

I'm looking into other options now, as I'm starting a pretty big build very soon. It seems that the amount of fuel injected really doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. It's all about the displacement of the vane lift pump built in to the IP. You just need to keep up with the vane pump at the maximum RPM of operation. One thing I would like to know, does the vane portion 1Z/AHU 10 mm IP flow the same rate as the one in the ALH auto IPs?

Another option apart from all the ones you listed is the aux pump on the CR engine cars. I've heard that thing can flow a crazy amount of fuel for its size, and build some considerable pressure too. I think to the point of requiring a pressure regulator to run as a lift pump on VE engines.
 

darkscout

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Joined
May 28, 2006
Location
Michigan
TDI
2003 Golf
It's all about the displacement of the vane lift pump built in to the IP.
Which means that it should be fixed and your current pump should suffice. I'm not sure about the difference in vane lift pumps between the 10 mm and the 11mm. But they should be pretty close. The big difference coming in the head. So if you keep 1 psi at 3500 rpm then it would stand to reason that even if you added monster injectors and a massive turbo it would still provide the same pressure since the vane displacement is the same.

However I'm really wondering if my drawing above would help. You'd have the vane pump acting as a pump keeping the filter happily pressurized (rather than it acting as a pull through).
 

bassman5066

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2011 Golf 2 Door TDI (sold back for Dieselgate), 91 Golf 4 Door with 1Z swap
Which means that it should be fixed and your current pump should suffice. I'm not sure about the difference in vane lift pumps between the 10 mm and the 11mm. But they should be pretty close. The big difference coming in the head. So if you keep 1 psi at 3500 rpm then it would stand to reason that even if you added monster injectors and a massive turbo it would still provide the same pressure since the vane displacement is the same.

However I'm really wondering if my drawing above would help. You'd have the vane pump acting as a pump keeping the filter happily pressurized (rather than it acting as a pull through).
Well, I would like to see it build just a bit more pressure than that when running, somewhere in the 5 psi ballpark.

I really like the idea in your drawing. One problem I see is fuel temp if your lift pump is off/fails. In the case of failure, the IP is just going to recycle that little bit of fuel in the loop rather than pulling from the tank, causing it to heat up.

I was thinking more along the lines of a larger lift pump coupled with a fuel pressure regulator designed for carb gassers. Just tee that into the feed and return lines, then I can set pressure wherever I want, provided the pump can keep up.
 

Digital Corpus

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Ontario, California
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'97 B4 w/ 236K mi body, 46K mi soul
When you say bigger build, how much bigger are you talking? I'm at the limit of my IP and when I go WOT, my pump voltage tells me that I'm maxing it out. A lift pump will ease the work the little 10 mm I have without having to go to an 11 mm. Just my 2 cents.
 

robnitro

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 19, 2004
Location
NYC area, NY
TDI
2001 Jetta TDI GLS silver
Well, I would like to see it build just a bit more pressure than that when running, somewhere in the 5 psi ballpark.

I really like the idea in your drawing. One problem I see is fuel temp if your lift pump is off/fails. In the case of failure, the IP is just going to recycle that little bit of fuel in the loop rather than pulling from the tank, causing it to heat up.

I was thinking more along the lines of a larger lift pump coupled with a fuel pressure regulator designed for carb gassers. Just tee that into the feed and return lines, then I can set pressure wherever I want, provided the pump can keep up.
If you make a limited return, with a fuel cooler in the loop, its not a problem.
Instead of having full flow go back to the tank, I have about 20% or so.
The fuel filter which gets the "recycled fuel" just gets warm, not hot.
My small viton check valve makes a restriction too, keeping pressure in the loop/fuel filter/ etc. But my pump can only do around 5-7 psi.
 

bassman5066

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Apr 8, 2011
Location
Honey Brook PA
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2011 Golf 2 Door TDI (sold back for Dieselgate), 91 Golf 4 Door with 1Z swap
When you say bigger build, how much bigger are you talking? I'm at the limit of my IP and when I go WOT, my pump voltage tells me that I'm maxing it out. A lift pump will ease the work the little 10 mm I have without having to go to an 11 mm. Just my 2 cents.
I like your thinking on this. That's kind of why i installed the lift pump in the first place, to give a little boost to the 10mm pump. I'm upgrading to the 11mm for another reason too - higher injection pressures. I'm lowering compression by .5 so
I am trying to compensate for that by running higher injection pressures and nozzles with a large spray pattern and lots of holes to aid in atomization. That way cold starts are just as easy and I will have minimal smoke at low RPMs and when cold. As far as how big a build, check out the link in my sig.


If you make a limited return, with a fuel cooler in the loop, its not a problem.
Instead of having full flow go back to the tank, I have about 20% or so.
The fuel filter which gets the "recycled fuel" just gets warm, not hot.
My small viton check valve makes a restriction too, keeping pressure in the loop/fuel filter/ etc. But my pump can only do around 5-7 psi.
I'm gonna price out the aux fuel pump on a CR. I heard they weren't cheap but I'm curious how that compares to the PD in tank setup.

I have my pump mounted right in front of the rear pass tire, and used already existing studs from the old under car CIS gasser pump. My check valves are all on the tank side of the pump (I plumbed in a bypass circuit when I wasn't sure if the Facet pumps would pull through) so if anything the restriction they cause would be a little vacuum behind them.

Do you guys know if the PD in tank pump will fit into a MK3 tank or is it just for the MK4s?

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darkscout

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May 28, 2006
Location
Michigan
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2003 Golf
Pretty sure it'll fit a Mk3. I don't know if VW has changed it's tank design... ever. I know my Mk2 had that familiar 'dial lock' on the top of it.
 

bassman5066

Veteran Member
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Apr 8, 2011
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Honey Brook PA
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2011 Golf 2 Door TDI (sold back for Dieselgate), 91 Golf 4 Door with 1Z swap
Pretty sure it'll fit a Mk3. I don't know if VW has changed it's tank design... ever. I know my Mk2 had that familiar 'dial lock' on the top of it.
Yea but the MK2 tank isn't deep enough to fit a MK3 TDI sending unit. I ended up getting a tank from a 97 gasser and used a TDI sender for my MK2 to get my fuel gauge reading properly on my MK3 cluster.

Another thing I thought of. What about a MK3/4 gasser in tank pump? Pressure is only created by a restriction (regulator in the case of the gassers) so I wonder how much it would build pumping into the IP. Worst case, you could use a regulator for a carb application and regulate to 5-10 psi.

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GTiTDi

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Pretty sure it'll fit a Mk3. I don't know if VW has changed it's tank design... ever. I know my Mk2 had that familiar 'dial lock' on the top of it.
Yes tank design changed...PD lift pump will fit into mk3 tank but not correctly.. I ended up modifying a mk3 ABA sending unit to hold the PD lift pump rather than the higher pressure gas pump...you still wont be able to use all the fuel though...I found out by trying it on my mk2 w mk3 TDI tank...you will run out of fuel before low fuel light illuminates.
 
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bassman5066

Veteran Member
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Apr 8, 2011
Location
Honey Brook PA
TDI
2011 Golf 2 Door TDI (sold back for Dieselgate), 91 Golf 4 Door with 1Z swap
Yes tank design changed...PD lift pump will fit into mk3 tank but not correctly.. I ended up modifying a mk3 ABA sending unit to hold the PD lift pump rather than the higher pressure gas pump...you still wont be able to use all the fuel though...I found out by trying it on my mk2 w mk3 TDI tank...you will run out of fuel before low fuel light illuminates.
So even with the ABA sender the PD pump didn't use all the fuel in the tank? Or did the fuel actually run out and the gauge still said there was some?

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GTiTDi

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So even with the ABA sender the PD pump didn't use all the fuel in the tank? Or did the fuel actually run out and the gauge still said there was some?

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gauge read correctly, ran out before it was all gone. couldn't get the pd pump pickup to seat all the way down into the mk3 sending unit. the pumps were similar but different. I had to use some plastic elbows and clamps to make the pd lift pump attach to the sending unit barbs as well. Was a lot of work for something I didn't end up keeping long. Only reason I tried was because I had all the necessary parts at hand in my collection...Now I run a Mr.Gasket liftpump mounted to the back of my RF strut tower on a custom bracket I fab'd....I don't think there is a fuel flow issue with it....been on there since I ditched the PD rig in Nov/Dec of '11.
 

bassman5066

Veteran Member
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Apr 8, 2011
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Honey Brook PA
TDI
2011 Golf 2 Door TDI (sold back for Dieselgate), 91 Golf 4 Door with 1Z swap
gauge read correctly, ran out before it was all gone. couldn't get the pd pump pickup to seat all the way down into the mk3 sending unit. the pumps were similar but different. I had to use some plastic elbows and clamps to make the pd lift pump attach to the sending unit barbs as well. Was a lot of work for something I didn't end up keeping long. Only reason I tried was because I had all the necessary parts at hand in my collection...Now I run a Mr.Gasket liftpump mounted to the back of my RF strut tower on a custom bracket I fab'd....I don't think there is a fuel flow issue with it....been on there since I ditched the PD rig in Nov/Dec of '11.
Ah OK. What's the flow rating on the Mr. Gasket pump? You used that green one they sell at most auto parts stores right? Have you ever done any pressure testing at the IP inlet? I just teed in and used a vac/pressure gauge to get my readings.

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GTiTDi

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Ah OK. What's the flow rating on the Mr. Gasket pump? You used that green one they sell at most auto parts stores right? Have you ever done any pressure testing at the IP inlet? I just teed in and used a vac/pressure gauge to get my readings.

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No never bothered..it was recommended by more than one other member...I don't waste time over thinking things that seem to work fine...I drive and have fun ;)

-unsubscribing...the notifications are distracting me from my work...
 

darkscout

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May 28, 2006
Location
Michigan
TDI
2003 Golf
Ah OK. What's the flow rating on the Mr. Gasket pump? You used that green one they sell at most auto parts stores right? Have you ever done any pressure testing at the IP inlet? I just teed in and used a vac/pressure gauge to get my readings.

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Mr. Gasket Micro Fuel Pump
Availability: Mr. Gasket, online vendors.
Price: ~$60
Pressure: 4-7 psi
Flow: 35 GPH
Dry Lift: None (Install lower than the pump)
 

bassman5066

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Apr 8, 2011
Location
Honey Brook PA
TDI
2011 Golf 2 Door TDI (sold back for Dieselgate), 91 Golf 4 Door with 1Z swap
No never bothered..it was recommended by more than one other member...I don't waste time over thinking things that seem to work fine...I drive and have fun ;)

-unsubscribing...the notifications are distracting me from my work...
Edit: never mind

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vanbcguy

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Feb 22, 2013
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Vancouver, BC
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'93 Passat - AHU mTDI with GTB1756VK
Pretty sure it'll fit a Mk3. I don't know if VW has changed it's tank design... ever. I know my Mk2 had that familiar 'dial lock' on the top of it.
I think it physically FITS the Mk3, but the fuel level sender will be wrong. Apparently it makes the fuel gauge go backwards!! I contacted Scott (Stealth TDI) as he listed he had installed one on his Mk3 here:

http://www.stealthtdi.com/Performance.html

So if the fuel gauge is not important to you then yes, the PD lift pump will work.
 

Mark@MaloneTuning

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1998 AHU TDI engine. My fuel pressure gauge is tapped into the IP feed line (between the fuel filter and 10mm AHU IP). My old "9-10 PSI" inline pump was making noise and it was able to slowly build up to 5 PSI with the ignition turned on, but once the engine starts it drops to 0 PSI and stays there.

Now with the Fuelab 8 PSI pump it holds ~7 PSI at idle and steady speed. During a hard WOT run it may go down to 4-5 PSI. It's also pretty quiet even without the rubber mounts. I'm happy.

edit: I'm still using original 1.8L 8v gas fuel lines, which are very narrow. Fuelab recommends minimum 1/2" suction line to pump for optimal flow, which I may do later on.
 
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Digital Corpus

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Ontario, California
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'97 B4 w/ 236K mi body, 46K mi soul
I've decided to pick up one of the Facet Cubes, #40109, and see how it runs.

https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/productdetails.asp?RecID=9807

Also decided to go with some tygonthane fuel line. I priced out their tear and abrasion resistant line, formula C-210-A, w/ 3/8" ID & 5/8" OD (it's overkill, I know), and McMaster's price put me at ~$70 for 28 feet. Amazon carries a 100 ft roll of the very same hose for the same price. found a friend who'll buy some off me, but I'll still have extra.
 
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ToyotaTDI

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Apr 20, 2011
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Victoria, B.C.
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1988 4Runner AHU
Just received my Facet posi-flow 60303 rated 7-10psi at 34GPH, most guys seem to be shooting for ~5psi but I didnt see any reason to go a little higher. Will install and update once I can find some 1/8" fuel return line locally.

Fingers crossed for my IP seals :D
 

vanbcguy

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'93 Passat - AHU mTDI with GTB1756VK
I went for the 7-10 as well, I think it should be fine. I doubt it will actually make pressure that high as the IP will be sucking fuel from it rather than the pump deadheading.

But just in case keep us posted!



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bassman5066

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Apr 8, 2011
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Honey Brook PA
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2011 Golf 2 Door TDI (sold back for Dieselgate), 91 Golf 4 Door with 1Z swap
1998 AHU TDI engine. My fuel pressure gauge is tapped into the IP feed line (between the fuel filter and 10mm AHU IP). My old "9-10 PSI" inline pump was making noise and it was able to slowly build up to 5 PSI with the ignition turned on, but once the engine starts it drops to 0 PSI and stays there.

Now with the Fuelab 8 PSI pump it holds ~7 PSI at idle and steady speed. During a hard WOT run it may go down to 4-5 PSI. It's also pretty quiet even without the rubber mounts. I'm happy.

edit: I'm still using original 1.8L 8v gas fuel lines, which are very narrow. Fuelab recommends minimum 1/2" suction line to pump for optimal flow, which I may do later on.
Based on your pressure readings, this looks like the perfect pump for this application.

How did it perform at high RPMs? Did it hold the 4-5 psi all the way to red line?

Does anyone know if the vane pumps inside the IP are any different between 10mm and 11mm pump models?

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vanbcguy

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'93 Passat - AHU mTDI with GTB1756VK
Vane pumps themselves are pretty much the same on all the VE style pumps AFAIK. Bosch likes everything to be modular.

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