Just buy back California vehicles and get the CARB out

fxk

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Gawd.
I read through the BS from C.A.R.B. released Jan 12. What a pile. Have you read it? This is what they're demanding (note the predictions and the time frame these data need to be to C.A.R.B.) from their FAQ...

What makes a recall plan approvable?
Each recall plan must include all the required elements detailed in California Code of Regulations Title 13, Sections 2113-2121, and Code of Federal Regulations, Title 40 Section 85.1803. These elements include but are not limited to:

a. The description of the vehicles and affected California and U.S. population

b. Description of the nonconformity and the specific recalibration and hardware corrective actions to return the vehicles to the certified configuration (i.e., no defeat device and emission compliant)

c. A description of the method by which the manufacturer will determine the names and addresses of vehicle owners and the method for notifying the service facilities and vehicle owners of the recall

d. A description of the procedure to be followed by the vehicle owner to obtain correction. This shall include the date on or after which the owner can have the nonconformity remedied, the time reasonably necessary to perform the labor, and the designation of the facilities that can perform the work

e. A copy of the owner’s notification letter

f. A description of the system by which the manufacturer will assure adequate supply of parts

g. A copy of all instructions that will be sent to those performing the repair

h. A description of the impact of the proposed repairs or adjustments on fuel economy, drivability, performance and safety of each vehicle recalled and a brief summary of the data, technical studies, or engineering evaluations which support the data

i. The estimate of the capture rate (percentage of cars successfully fixed) from the proposed recall

j. A description of the impact of the proposed changes on the average emissions from the vehicle to be recalled. The description shall include:
i. Average noncompliance emission levels
ii. Average emission reduction per pollutant from the recall repair
iii. An estimate of the average emission level per pollutant for the vehicle adjusted for the capture rate

k. A repair label shall be affixed to each vehicle that is corrected per the approved recall plan

l. A description of the impact of the proposed changes of the On-Board Diagnostics system performance on the vehicle to be recalled. The description shall include:
i. OBD demonstration testing for all major monitors
ii. Identification and disclosure of all OBD monitoring requirements that are not met in the recall calibration


BTW, C.A.R.B has also denied VW additional time.

No, it's not enough to just set the ECU to test parms full time.

IMNTBHO, VW should just buy back the California vehicles, and get C.A.R.B. out of the so-called negotiations, and just deal with the EPA.
There will be no winning with C.A.R.B. They never wanted diesels in the state, as they threaten their precious EV programs.

Goodbye California.
frank
 

bizzle

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CARB is asking VW to detail what they're going to do, how they're going to do it, and what impact it will have on our cars.

What's so onerous about that?
 

fxk

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CARB is asking VW to detail what they're going to do, how they're going to do it, and what impact it will have on our cars.

What's so onerous about that?
Kind of the cart before the horse, don't you think?
They want a complete plan before approving the fix. Doesn't that seem odd to you?

They want VW to identify the owners (item c). Isn't that what the California DMV should be doing? They know enough to block one's registration. Doesn't CARB have a role?

The estimated capture rate? Doesn't California DMV kinda govern that?

Under section J...
When will the approved fixes be able to be tested? Long term?
Average emission reduction per pollutant? Really? How about it passes...
How useful is an average? What is an average, anyway? Average of what? Even WVA univ doesn't know exactly how much it pollutes beyond standard (up to 40x). When? Under what conditions? Do we have driving profiles of each car to average? Maybe if they state that up to 40x of the NOx will be reduced in all the cars fixed. Are cars junked part of the capture rate?
The same weighted by capture rate? Seriously?

All this was supposed to be DONE before approval of the fix? How was that supposed to happen? All this was supposed to be done by NOW!

Some of those things are after a fix is developed and approved.

Finally section H. They want results of yet to be started studies using a yet to be established/approved fix submitted before approving the fix and plan. BTW, CA says time's up.

No nothing onerous. Ridiculous.

We'd all like answers. With the intractable position of CARB, and their inside-out logic requirements, VW does not have a chance. Nor do we. We can't start a discussion without an approved fix. It is headed for an endless loop of litigation in Ca.

I say buy the California cars back now, as that is the CA. end game. Take the unreasoning idiots out of the game, and try to deal with the EPA.

frank
 
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M. Tummi

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Kind of the cart before the horse, don't you think?
They want a complete plan before approving the fix. Doesn't that seem odd to you?

Hasn't VW had over a year to come up with a fix? I could be wrong, but I believe this whole ordeal between the EPA and VW was going behind closed doors on well before it went public. At which point does the EPA and CARB put their collective feet down and say "enough is enough, where's the fix?"

Edit: This has been going on well over a year

Quoted from: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=448336 (first page, Post 1, 5 lines down)

5/30/2014 WVU CAFEE study that uncovered the emissions scandal: http://www.theicct.org/use-emissions...el-vehicles-us
 
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pushgears

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How would you feel if you lived in California, didn't own a TDI, and perhaps had a child or other family member with chronic respiratory health issues????
Consider that, according to CARB, California is home to both the highest ozone levels (South Coast) and ambient particulate matter levels (San Joaquin Valley) measured in the United States. Twelve million Californians live in communities that exceed the federal ozone and particulate matter ambient air quality standards
How about other auto manufacturers? Why should they be subject to stringent regulations while VW is given a free pass? It's a level playing field, but VW consciously decided to cheat. To make matters worse, they've dragged their feet, kept owners in the dark, and issued ludicrous statements, such as "it was the work of a handful of rogue engineers". Oh and let's not forget the Mathias Mueller Interview with NPR at the Detroit Auto Show - what an embarrassment to the company and to us. The guy is a dope
 
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Rico567

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<snip> Twelve million Californians live in communities that exceed the federal ozone and particulate matter ambient air quality standards[/I][/B]
<snip>
Twelve million Californians live in communities that exceed the federal ozone and particulate matter ambient air quality standards, in an environment that does not now, and will never, ever support this many people with decent air quality, just due to that many people breathing and going about their inescapable daily activities. There, fixed that for you.
 

bubbagumpshrimp

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Kind of the cart before the horse, don't you think?
They want a complete plan before approving the fix. Doesn't that seem odd to you?
How can you expect a regulatory agency to approve a fix when you can't even explain how you're going to fix the problem, what the impact of the fix will be, etc.:confused::confused::confused:

If CARB had signed off on this "fix" :rolleyes:...VW would then set off on the process of designing a system to address it. It would be YEARS before they would field it.

Edit: That's assuming they ever actually come up with a fix. The rate they're going...they would have used that as an excuse to kick the can down the road even further, so they could justify paying even less for vehicles that they eventually have to buyback.
 
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fxk

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As noted, VW and CARB have kicked the can down the road and back. I didn't say give VW a pass. I said VW should buyback the California vehicles. The two are in intractable positions. Deal with the other 49 and the EPA.
frank
 

South Coast Guy

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How would you feel if you lived in California, didn't own a TDI, and perhaps had a child or other family member with chronic respiratory health issues????
Consider that, according to CARB, California is home to both the highest ozone levels (South Coast) and ambient particulate matter levels (San Joaquin Valley) measured in the United States. Twelve million Californians live in communities that exceed the federal ozone and particulate matter ambient air quality standards
How about other auto manufacturers? Why should they be subject to stringent regulations while VW is given a free pass? It's a level playing field, but VW consciously decided to cheat. To make matters worse, they've dragged their feet, kept owners in the dark, and issued ludicrous statements, such as "it was the work of a handful of rogue engineers". Oh and let's not forget the Mathias Mueller Interview with NPR at the Detroit Auto Show - what an embarrassment to the company and to us. The guy is a dope
How do you feel about diesel owners who remove their DPF?
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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How would you feel if you lived in California, didn't own a TDI, and perhaps had a child or other family member with chronic respiratory health issues????
Consider that, according to CARB, California is home to both the highest ozone levels (South Coast) and ambient particulate matter levels (San Joaquin Valley) measured in the United States. Twelve million Californians live in communities that exceed the federal ozone and particulate matter ambient air quality standards
How about other auto manufacturers? Why should they be subject to stringent regulations while VW is given a free pass? It's a level playing field, but VW consciously decided to cheat. To make matters worse, they've dragged their feet, kept owners in the dark, and issued ludicrous statements, such as "it was the work of a handful of rogue engineers". Oh and let's not forget the Mathias Mueller Interview with NPR at the Detroit Auto Show - what an embarrassment to the company and to us. The guy is a dope
AFAIK diesel powered passenger vehicles in CA are a very tiny fraction of the fleet. I doubt eliminating all of them tomorrow would have any significant impact on pollution levels.

If you live in the LA basin and have respiratory issues then you should question your decision to remain there. You may jeopardize your own health if you wait for the air to get clean enough to not affect you.
 

Fourplay

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Kind of the cart before the horse, don't you think?
They want a complete plan before approving the fix. Doesn't that seem odd to you?
Huh? Of course CARB wants a detailed plan before they approve it. That's the entire point.

As en engineer, if one of our clients put out an RFP and we responded with a half-finished proposal with unknown goals or budget, do you think that client would accept our proposal? Of course not!
 

Lug_Nut

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It is my understanding that the cars didn't meet FEDERAL emissions limits.
It's NOT just CA, and not just the states that had adopted the more stringent CA emissions limits, but every blessed one of the TDI sold in the US for model years 2009 and onward.

CARB is asking the same questions that the EPA should ask regarding how VW intends to retroactively bring all of the affected vehicles into the compliance condition that VW claimed them to be in.
 

pushgears

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How do you feel about diesel owners who remove their DPF?
As this site frequently states, altering the emission control system is illegal. People who do so are at risk to be prosecuted for violating the regulations. Oh, I forgot, DPF delete is only done for off-road use -yeah right.
 

pushgears

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AFAIK diesel powered passenger vehicles in CA are a very tiny fraction of the fleet. I doubt eliminating all of them tomorrow would have any significant impact on pollution levels.
If you live in the LA basin and have respiratory issues then you should question your decision to remain there. You may jeopardize your own health if you wait for the air to get clean enough to not affect you.
Should we pass judgement on peoples' choices of where to live? What if they need the support of their families, or are caring for someone else, or for whatever reason, are unable to relocate. That's not the issue. The issue is whether VW should be allowed to play by a different set of rules than other car manufacturers. What would BMW, Mercedes, GM, Ford, or Chrysler say?
 

IFRCFI

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Deal with the other 49 and the EPA.
frank

Frank,

Starting in 2016, the EPA is using CARB as their standard for all 50 states. The EPA will defer to CARB in this situation, as they have already shown. CARB isn't just about California.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_emission_standards

"The EPA has adopted the California emissions standards as a national standard by the 2016 model year[4] and is collaborating with California regulators on stricter national emissions standards for model years 2017–2025.[5]"


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Rico567

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Unfavorably. The Malones and Rawteks of the world should be facing fines, and all 50 states should be emission testing on diesels.
<snip>
Easy to sit back and say what states should be doing. What we "should" all be doing is running our cars on unicorn farts and flitting around the galaxy in cheap family spaceships.
In the real world, how many states, if they were individuals, would be in bankruptcy court? I know ours would, and I can think of others. And legislate vehicle emissions testing? You've got to be kidding.
 

CraziFuzzy

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Or, VW could have just not tried to go around regulations in the first place.
 

Random_Vibration

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Kind of the cart before the horse, don't you think?
They want a complete plan before approving the fix. Doesn't that seem odd to you?
Don't take this wrong, but no that isn't odd. It is engineering SOP (standard operating proceedure).
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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Should we pass judgement on peoples' choices of where to live? What if they need the support of their families, or are caring for someone else, or for whatever reason, are unable to relocate. That's not the issue. The issue is whether VW should be allowed to play by a different set of rules than other car manufacturers. What would BMW, Mercedes, GM, Ford, or Chrysler say?
I'm not passing judgement, just questioning the logic. Most of my in-laws live in the San Gabriel Valley. And our youngest son had severe asthma as a child. My wife would have loved to live closer to her family and in a milder climate, but we both knew it was not worth putting our son's health at risk. And we also knew that, although the air in LA is much cleaner now than in the 70s, waiting for regulations to make it clean enough to be safe wasn't going to happen. We'd still be waiting, and my son is now 25.

The California Air Resources Board has had its sights set on eliminating diesel passenger cars since its inception. Meantime they allow "light" trucks, that are predominantly used as passenger cars, to have more relaxed standards. All I'm saying is that diesels are a small part of the air quality problem.
 

msjulie

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Meantime they allow "light" trucks, that are predominantly used as passenger cars, to have more relaxed standards. All I'm saying is that diesels are a small part of the air quality problem.
This is the bit the bugs me; a truck used as a passenger car can be x-amount dirty but a car used as same, likely cleaner than the truck, must be 2x-amount less dirty. An nice big loop hole for mostly American truck makers...

I also agree that the pollution aspect of this whole fiasco is blown out of proportion plain and simple based on number of these cars in the whole country. The better mgp/lower co2 output shouldn't be so easily dismissed either.
 

fxk

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Frank,

Starting in 2016, the EPA is using CARB as their standard for all 50 states. The EPA will defer to CARB in this situation, as they have already shown. CARB isn't just about California.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_emission_standards

"The EPA has adopted the California emissions standards as a national standard by the 2016 model year[4] and is collaborating with California regulators on stricter national emissions standards for model years 2017–2025.[5]"


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I had no idea. Thanks for cluing me in (I think)
 

turbocharged798

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Frank,

Starting in 2016, the EPA is using CARB as their standard for all 50 states. The EPA will defer to CARB in this situation, as they have already shown. CARB isn't just about California.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_emission_standards

"The EPA has adopted the California emissions standards as a national standard by the 2016 model year[4] and is collaborating with California regulators on stricter national emissions standards for model years 2017–2025.[5]"

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The 2016 standard is not really relevant since the 1st gen CR TDI would only have to meet previous standards.
 

BMLO13

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I think it is important to know how VW will fix the problem and what impact it will have on the car. Any changes to the emission map of the car is going to have a impact on MPG, drivability, and durability of the car, good, bad or indifferent. I like the way my JSW performs, that is what I paid for. Anything less then how my car performs now will not be acceptable to me. I have not seen VW's proposed fix, but did see CARB's response so I am only seeing one side of the issue. If the answers to CARB's questions are not in VW's proposed fix then yes I see a problem.
 

vwmk4

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None at this time, Looking for a nice one though.
Instead of fixing the diesel engines, just replace them with the 1.4T.
Miles per gallon should be about the same and less BS for all.
 

nokivasara

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Instead of fixing the diesel engines, just replace them with the 1.4T.
Miles per gallon should be about the same and less BS for all.
Careful what you wish for, the 1.4 is quite troublesome. Cam chain tensioner issues mostly, VW brings in updated parts but the issues are still there.
It is a powerful little engine though.
 

CraziFuzzy

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Careful what you wish for, the 1.4 is quite troublesome. Cam chain tensioner issues mostly, VW brings in updated parts but the issues are still there.
It is a powerful little engine though.
Considering I'm on my 3rd entire fuel system on my JSW, that doesn't sound all that bad...
 

GSwag

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You want carb to approve a fix without a plan from VW? For real? You think the submission of a plan is asking too much?

Buy up just California tdis? Huh?????

As stupid as vw has been, they aren't stupid enough to do that. Can you imagine the uproar from owners in other states of they decided to just buy back tdis from one state?

LMAO
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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First off, California isn't the only CARB state. Massachusetts, New York, Oregon, Washington, and Vermont also comply with CARB rules (I think I've got that right). And my understanding that the '09 and later TDIs were designed to be 50 state compliant, including CARB states. Singling out CA doesn't make sense for a lot of reasons.
 
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