Jetta TDI Going Away… What’s left?

dubStrom

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Jetta TDI Going Away… What’s left? NCS JETTA!

The existing dealership stock of Jetta TDI sedans is the last we’ll see this year (might be a few in pipeline, but no more 2010 orders taken for some time now). The Jetta badge is NOT (edited 5/27, read on!) going away for 2011. There are at least a couple of dozen Jetta TDI (sedans) left around here. Right now, there is pretty good selection of colors and trim levels.

The reason I am saying this is that NMS TDI is promised, but 2.5i (5cyl) gasser is what we’ll see coming from Chattanooga in ~September, and no telling when they’ll start installing the 2.0L TDI (could be a year). I don’t think there will be other option for TDI besides 2.0L next year, at least not in the NMS.

The Golf variants, Golf TDI and the Golf Sportwagen TDI (a.k.a. Jetta Sport Wagen in the US) will both be available for 2011. My local dealerships still can’t order 2011 TDIs. I wonder if Puebla made Jettas are going away in Mexican market too? If they are ending Jetta model in 2011 for US market, maybe Mexico will be making NMS TDIs. One would think they’d allow Puebla Jettas to ship here until Chattanooga ramps up NMS TDI, or there is a vacuum in the midsize TDI lineup. Will VW let this hole in the TDI lineup persist into 2011?
 
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Powder Hound

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OK, so what does NMS stand for? North 'Murican Sedan? I'm not familiar with that acronym.

Here on this forum, people have asked for more diesel engine choices. Unheard, unreplied, unfulfilled.

People here have asked if the Polo will come. Unheard, unreplied, unfulfilled.

People have asked for multiple engine choices in the Polo. Unheard, unreplied, unfulfilled.

We asked if the Lupo would come. Mind you, the Lupo was a car that got spectacular mileage; they spent a great deal of trouble driving them around the world, and through this country, and spent no money advertising the feat. Unheard, unreplied, unfulfilled. (Well, I guess they did reply and killed the Lupo.)

People asked for a small pickup they build for other markets. Unheard, unreplied, unfulfilled.

In short, whatever people have asked for, VW shrugs, gives some nebulous answer that usually means nothing because it commits to nothing. They can explain in many ways why they can't build a car and bring it here and sell it at a profit. From the top of VWAG to the lowest don't-know-nuthin'-'bout-TDIs tech in the service department, we are generally treated like the red-headed bastard step child that they don't want to admit exists. I'm sure there's someone somewhere in that vast organization that does care. But those people are carefully sequestered from us.

With such a showing of great concern for us, is it any wonder there will be a hole in the lineup? What in recent history makes you think they care?
 

dubStrom

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no Jetta

VW is apparently serious about eliminating the chromed tongue Jetta. NMS is this forums temporary name for the new midsized sedan, but VW still hasn't unveiled the new moniker. Thanks for the spy photos. I agree with all of the comments on that article. It really does look like a mid 90's Corolla. The Golf and Amarok front ends are moving in a nice direction this year. You can see a glimpse of that, but the teeth they plant around the lines destroy it, and square lights on the back are just aesthetically flat. This is not looking good.

The other puzzling decision by VW execs was to re-badge the highly successful Golf Sportwagen as Jetta SW for US market. Local dealer sales manager tells me it will just be called “Sportwagen” next year. Very odd. If they had stuck with the Golf badge, no change would be necessary. They seem to want to retire the Jetta badge (WRONG, edited 5/27), and yet they re-badged the Golf Sportwagen as JSW. I don’t get it.

Oh, and if that blog post is correct at Edmunds inside line, the 2.5L 5 cyl gas hog will indeed be first powerplant, as suspected. The 2.0T will REQUIRE premium, which often eclipses diesel in price these days. Hardly a practical solution compared to TDI. Why the holy hale can't we have a 1.4L plain TDI? Put it in a Golf for cryin' out loud. That would be fine. I want 60+ mpg, and I really don't want high tech BlueMotion to get there.

Diesel hit a new low in our area just this week... $2.65 if I want to drive 10 miles, and $2.85 on the way to work this morning. Don't forget to tank up before the Holiday weekend coming up...
 
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Snoozer

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I agree that the spy photos don't make me want to run out and buy one, even if it has a TDI. Hopefully some of the front and back trim pieces that are part of the "disguise" will be replaced with better looking hardware on the production models. Remember, though, VW said they were going for a car that was cheaper to manufacture so they could bring the retail price down. I just hope we get a less expensive Jetta, not a "cheap" one.
 

truman

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I suspect that in the spirit of decontenting, the 2.0t will have to be reprogrammed to accept RUG. I can't see how the Golf will survive, with the larger and cheaper entry of the NMS. Looks to me like it will be NMS, Sportwagon, CC, EOS, Tiguan, and Toureg. Golf, Jetta, and Passats go away. Am I missing something?
 

Scott_DeWitt

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dubStrom said:
VW is apparently serious about eliminating the name Jetta. NMS is this forums temporary name for the new midsized sedan, but VW still hasn't unveiled the new moniker. Thanks for the spy photos. I agree with all of the comments on that article. It really does look like a mid 90's Corolla. The Golf and Amarok front ends are moving in a nice direction this year. You can see a glimpse of that, but the teeth they plant around the lines destroy it, and square lights on the back are just aesthetically flat. This is not looking good.

The other puzzling decision by VW execs was to re-badge the highly successful Golf Sportwagen as Jetta SW for US market. Local dealer sales manager tells me it will just be called “Sportwagen” next year. Very odd. If they had stuck with the Golf badge, no change would be necessary. They seem to want to retire the Jetta badge, and yet they re-badged the Golf Sportwagen as JSW. I don’t get it.
The Golf is much more popular around the world than the Jetta, and there is a Golf Variant, as well as Jetta Variant. VW is likely trying to reduce overhead by going with a single model (golf), with 2 or 4 doors, and in hatchback, notchback, and Avant formats. The Jetta is also mostly unpopular in the rest of world however it's one of the most popular models in the USA.
 

dubStrom

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Golf will survive, at least for 2011

truman said:
I suspect that in the spirit of decontenting, the 2.0t will have to be reprogrammed to accept RUG. I can't see how the Golf will survive, with the larger and cheaper entry of the NMS. Looks to me like it will be NMS, Sportwagon, CC, EOS, Tiguan, and Toureg. Golf, Jetta, and Passats go away. Am I missing something?

Golf is scheduled to be available for 2011. Currently, Golf and Golf Sportwagen (Sportwagen) are the 2.0L TDI models that are expected by Dealerships (and Toureg V6 TDI, I suppose... go Addblue!!!).

I don't see Golf going away even after 2011. What they need to do is equip it with 1.4TDI or 1.6TDI as an optional engine. Polo is unlikely to make it here. Golf is small enough for this market:p
 

Snoozer

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Oberkanone

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2011 Jetta will be available. Jetta is NCS. NCS = New Compact Sedan
Will still be built exclusively in Puebla Mexico.

NMS is what will be built in Chattanooga, TN. NMS = New Midsize Sedan

Jetta is not going away, Jetta will still offer TDI, Jetta will be available later this year as a 2011.

NMS will be available with TDI, though perhaps not at launch, and the name is not certain, maybe Passat and maybe not. TDI will be 2.0 (140 or 170 HP version)
 

big_ole_truck

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Hey, that's a deal for us that bought the 2010 Jetta TDIs, if VW doesn't offer the TDI in the replacement vehicle. Resale value should hold very well, assuming the price of oil maintains current levels.
 

GoFaster

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As far as I can tell from hearing from various sources ...

TDI is most certainly going to be available in the next Jetta. (And in the NMS, whatever it's going to be called, although it might be delayed introduction.)

The Golf will continue in its current (just-introduced) generation for a few more years. What was previously the Jetta wagon and is now Golf wagon in Canada (and has always been Golf wagon in the rest of the world) will continue alongside as-is. Maybe it will be renamed Golf wagon in the USA as well? Doesn't matter what it's called, it continues as-is for a few years more.

Supposedly the 2.5 gas engine might be the one going away, possibly to be replaced with a 1.4 TSI ... now *that* would be a good move. If that happens, it will probably be across the board (Golf and new Jetta). There will also be a hybrid gasoline-electric version around 2012, so there will be plenty of powertrain choices (1.4 TSI, 2.0 TDI, hybrid, probably 2.0 TFSI in a performance model).

We know the NCS is the next Jetta and will be built in Puebla, Mexico. We don't know what they'll call NMS (to be built in Chattanooga) yet. This vehicle replaces Passat - not Jetta - in the North American market and won't be sold elsewhere in the world.

Car and Driver's photos do the NCS (i.e. 2011 Jetta) more justice than the ones posted elsewhere previously. I don't mind it except for the square taillights, but it's not about to make me run out and buy one.
 

dubStrom

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Jetta NOT going away!

Oberkanone said:
2011 Jetta will be available. Jetta is NCS. NCS = New Compact Sedan
Will still be built exclusively in Puebla Mexico.
NMS is what will be built in Chattanooga, TN. NMS = New Midsize Sedan
Jetta is not going away, Jetta will still offer TDI, Jetta will be available later this year as a 2011.
NMS will be available with TDI, though perhaps not at launch, and the name is not certain, maybe Passat and maybe not. TDI will be 2.0 (140 or 170 HP version)
OK. So the sales manager and another sales person mislead me. Maybe they were actually trying to say that the chrome tongue was going away, not the Jetta Badge. The salesman also seemed quite convinced that Passat will go away. Again, he probably meant the body, not the badge. The article seems pretty clear with regards to Jetta.

"This Jetta—it’s been known as the New Compact Sedan, or NCS, but will keep the familiar name—will be built in Mexico like the current car."

So Jetta will continue to come from Puebla. Well that makes more sense, frankly. But the crowded low end ("dumbed down") Jetta and new NMS will definitely put some pressure on VW to stop selling the Golf here. From what I have heard (or thought I heard), Golf TDI will still be around in 2door, 4door variants. With stiffer suspension and slightly smaller dimensions, it's more of a little sports car, so maybe it will continue to be offered after 2011.

What we really need though is the Polo with a smaller TDI. Ford is reintroducing the Fiesta, but it won't get better than about 40mpg by EPA estimates. A Polo with small TDI could be just as sporty, or more so, and sip fuel even more daintily than the Fiesta. It would easily and successfully compete for subcompact sales.
 
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soldierguy

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I think the taillights are hiding under a bit of red & black plastic. If you look closely at the pics, you can just make out what look to me to be the actual lines of the tails, so I don't think they'll be the plain rectangles that are in the pics. I think they'll be closer to the more angular tails in other concept photoshops.

Still though...kind of a bland looking car to me.
 

dubStrom

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soldierguy said:
I think the taillights are hiding under a bit of red & black plastic. If you look closely at the pics, you can just make out what look to me to be the actual lines of the tails, so I don't think they'll be the plain rectangles that are in the pics. I think they'll be closer to the more angular tails in other concept photoshops.
Still though...kind of a bland looking car to me.
There are a few Audis with square tail lights, so they could stay square. If styling senses cut across the lineup, the nose may also look more like Golf and Amarok . Amarok nose looks like a thicker or taller Golf nose, and it works. Good looking truck.

A friend of mine commented that the new JSW looks like a Jellybean. It's true. Now that's all I can see when I look at it !
 

Dunno513

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soldierguy said:
I think the taillights are hiding under a bit of red & black plastic. If you look closely at the pics, you can just make out what look to me to be the actual lines of the tails, so I don't think they'll be the plain rectangles that are in the pics. I think they'll be closer to the more angular tails in other concept photoshops.

Still though...kind of a bland looking car to me.
There's definately some tape covering both the rear and sides of those tail lights. Zoom in and you will see it. Honestly.. they should have used the Honda badge :rolleyes:
 

truman

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Since VW is trying to move down market, to me it would make sense to replace the rather complex MK5 w/ the updated MK4 that they sell in Mexico. I can't see how the MK5 as we know it could hold it's position next to the larger and cheaper NMS? I can't see where the Golf fits w/ the new volume strategy either.
 

dubStrom

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better photos (same)

These photos posted at auto express are larger and don't have the copyright and website logos watermarked in them. Same spy shots, but easier to look at detail.

There seems to be a plastic plate at the inner end of the rear lenses. The forward outer end is painted black too_Otherwise, the body may have other minor plates or doodads to break the lines and obscure the shape, but largely, it is easy to imagine.

So let me get this straight... this is the new Jetta, to be made in Puebla. Right?

I also like the old Jetta TDI that they still sell in Mexico. I just sold my 03 Jetta TDI, mostly because of my fears of the transmission failing. I'd have kept it if it was manual transmission. In fact, I'd have bought the Mexican Jetta if I could have done it. No way to get a title for it here because of EPA requirements, of course.

Mexicans have had access to the newer chrome tongued Jetta style, badged Bora. They have it in a "GLI" version, and this Wolfsburg edition. It is upscaled and more expensive there. Just another reason to go with the older style like my '03!

I imagine that they'll be eliminating one or the other (the old Jetta?) next year when they make the new Jetta. That will be a sad day.
 

Oberkanone

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less is less

truman said:
Since VW is trying to move down market, to me it would make sense to replace the rather complex MK5 w/ the updated MK4 that they sell in Mexico. I can't see how the MK5 as we know it could hold it's position next to the larger and cheaper NMS? I can't see where the Golf fits w/ the new volume strategy either.
MkV is less complex and lower cost to manufacture than MkIV and MkVI is lower cost than MkV, according to previous statements by VW and industry wonks. For the overall platform, engines are an exception and are higher cost and complexity.

What VW is saying about competing with Accord, Malibu, Camry and expanding sales in U.S.A. to 450,000 vehicles in just two years, and what VW is offering at dealers right now is at odds with each other. VW will not meet it's goals with $27,000 Golf TDI's, or $25K Jetta's. Import levels of Golfs are minuscule, VW prefers to sell them in Europe.
Lowering pricing on Jetta and Passat (or whatever VW names the NMS) will HAVE to be accomplished for VW to compete and to reach it's volume aspirations.

Will Golf go away, most likely no, VW can continue to price high and sell the very few they import to diehard VW customers. And Polo can take the place as the entry level VW.
 

dubStrom

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Fortune 500 Global detailed information on Puebla, NCS (Jetta) and NMS

I found this informative article describing some of what seems to be happening in Puebla. I think it was badly translated or transcribed (takes a little thought to 'read'), but the strategy for reducing cost of production of the Jetta is detailed, and it clarifies VW goals in terms of production and increasing North American market share. Evidence for how badly it was translated... The translator uses the phrase "Cheap car for Mexico" and "the cheapest car is the Jetta A4" ! Kind of funny. No North American VW employee or auto trade reporter would dare use that term!!

I wonder how much this will affect the stability and road-feel of the Jetta? If they lighten up the suspension components, and reduce weight in other areas of the chassis, the results could be significant.

The styling of the body of NMS is not bad. I agree it looks like a small Camry, even without the fake logo. I think it would look better if it looked more like the Golf, but bigger. Golf and Golf Sportwagen have a very appealing and aerodynamic nose. Amarok is very similar and it looks excellent (thicker/taller). Jetta would just look a little more muscular if it were slightly thicker and wider. Based on the spy photos, I see some similarity, but somehow, I think it will diverge away from that shape.
 
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PlaneCrazy

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I was at the dealer today for service (and to buy a car... mine! I bought out the lease, I like the car-2.0T Passat wagon with manual tranny-so much :D ).

Heard that Canada will still get the Passat in 2011 unlike the US, but in wagon format only (along the CC which the US will continue to get). Dealers in Canada literally SCREAMING for a Tiguan TDI. Falling on deaf ears.

What I would like to see: 1.4 TSI or 1.6 TDI as standard engines, 2.0T or 2.0 TDI as optional engines.

That would offer a more efficient range than the 2.5/2.0TDI. You can optimize either purchase price, economy, or power depending on needs, but at each level you get reasonable fuel economy.
 

dubStrom

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PlaneCrazy said:
..........
Heard that Canada will still get the Passat in 2011 unlike the US, but in wagon format only (along the CC which the US will continue to get). .........
Passat? CC? Where did you here this?? Unsubstantiated dealer claim ? Last I heard, NMS had no official badge. Please post source!!
 
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GoFaster

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I'm sure he means the existing Passat (non-CC) model which is discontinued in USA. Nobody knows what the NMS (not NCS ...) is going to be called in the North American market yet, which means there still exists the possibility that it will be called ... Passat!!

I don't know how much credibility I put in that statement, because Passat (existing body style) wagons, or any other body styles, aren't exactly common out there.

I don't think the Golf is going anywhere. They are selling a lot of them here (Canada). My dad is still waiting for the one he ordered. The CitiGolf (Mk4) is probably going away, to be replaced by the price-leader version of the next Jetta (the one with beam axle and drum brakes). There are rumblings that the price-leader version will start around $15k, which is about where the CitiGolf was priced. Right now, here (Canada), Mk6 Golfs are already selling for more than the outgoing Mk5 Jetta sedans. (Confused yet?)

So, in another year or so, in order from low price to high, we will have something like ...

Price-leader next Jetta (NCS) beam axle and drum brakes
Mk6 Golf and Mk5 Golf wagon (premium hatch/wagon)
Higher versions of next Jetta (NCS) IRS and disk brakes
NMS, whatever it's going to be called
 

dubStrom

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GoFaster said:
The CitiGolf (Mk4) is probably going away
...

That is just wrong (as in tragedy). Mk4 citigolf is still a Mexican offering. If it goes away there, it will go away for you as well (NA assembly expires).


lineup?

Not a bad assessment, so indulge my wild guesses here...:confused:

Price-leader next Jetta (NCS) beam axle and drum brakes
de-contented Jetta, essentially unmasked, Puebla, pushed back now way past September... December?

Mk6 Golf and Mk5 Golf wagon (premium hatch/wagon):
Golf, Wolfsburg, shipping by September/wagen -Puebla, shipping August

Higher versions of next Jetta (NCS) IRS and disk brakes
-and TDI version of same, Puebla, shipping January 2011

NMS, whatever it's going to be called
-Passat (CC? second choice) Jan-Feb 2011, no TDI until 2012 (possibly May/Jun 2011?) Hey, they are still bulldozing in Chatt!:rolleyes:
 
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PlaneCrazy

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dubStrom said:
Passat? CC? Where did you here this?? Unsubstantiated dealer claim ? Last I heard, NMS had no official badge. Please post source!!
It's not the NMS. It means that the Passat CC, and the Passat wagon we now have, will continue to be sold in Canada. No official word on the NMS nomenclature.

The source is the owner of a large VW dealer in Canada, with whom I was chatting yesterday as I was buying out the lease on my Passat wagon (I am now it's official owner :D ). Has proven to be very accurate before. BTW for those hoping for a TDI Tiguan: he said CDN dealers are literally screaming for one, but VW Canada says "nyet" (not "powerful enough" for Canadian tastes apparently).

The City Golf, as is already well-known, will no longer be imported at the end of the 2010 M.Y. The new Jetta will come in at the end of the year. Very disappointed to hear about the rear drum brakes. The beam axle I can handle up to a point, the Mk IV had a twist-beam rear axle. I hope some more heavily contented versions will also exist but I suspect the NMS will take over that role, in the Accord/Camry territory. Gawd I hate the N.A. market. I hope they do things a bit different up here, Quebec especially is a lot more European in its automotive tastes.

So lineup for 2011 looks like:

Jetta (price-leader, can I wish for a 1.6 TDI?)
Golf/Golf GTI (Mk VI)
Golf Wagon (refreshed Mk V)
Passat Wagon (can I wish for a TDI?)
Passat CC
Tiguan (how about a TDI for this as well?)
Touareg

And the NMS whenever it finally hits the streets.

My lineup, if I were "the boss":

Polo (1.4 TSI/1.6 TDI, as entry-level car)
Golf/Golf GTI (wider range of engines starting at 122 hp 1.4 TSI and 1.6 TDI, drop the 2.5)
Golf wagon (as now)
Passat CC
Passat sedan (entry level 2.5, 2.0T and 2.0 TDI, 2.5 priced competitively with Camry and Accord)
Passat wagon (same engine choices)
Tiguan with TDI
Touareg.

Forget the entry-level Jetta and NMS.
 

greengeeker

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Let me know when you want to offload the passat PlaneCrazy :eek:

I thought I heard rumblings that they wanted to revive the Phaeton as well or is that old news?

Honestly, how much cheaper can drum brakes be when compared to discs? One would think the added part count in the system would offset any minimal gain by going the drum route. :confused:
 

GoFaster

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Beam axle and drum brakes on the next Jetta will only be on the absolute bottom of the barrel de-contented price-leader model. That market segment doesn't care about what's underneath the car. The higher models will retain independent suspension and disk brakes.

You can do stuff like this pretty easily, when the suspension is all mounted on a subframe like it is on the Mk5 cars.
 
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