IT'S ALIVE!!!!! Updates to engine repl./install

[SUNRG]

Re: 303K miles is all she\'s got!!!! Carnage insid

these people found their TDIs to be reliable:

under "evidence the OEM fuel and oil filters <u>are</u> adequate"...

in Feb.05 i PM'd and emailed the highest mileage TDIs i could find and here's what i've learned:
<ul type="square">[*] Miles, Driver, FuelFilter, OilFilter, OCI, Oil, how's your TDI running with all those miles
[*] 310+k, Golfland99, OEM, OEM, 5k, Castrol/Mobil 5w-40, = to new
[*] 270k, steam4, OEM, OEM, 10k, M1, = to new
[*] 268k, K5ING, Mann/OEM, OEM, 10k , D1, = to new
[*] 263k, Cosmic Green, Mann/OEM, OEM, 6.2k, Duron Syn 5w-40, = to new
[*] 235k, Nutsnbolts, OEM, OEM, 10k, D1, = to new
[*] ~226k, GeWilli, added oil guard bypass @ ~75k, replaced OEM with CAT @ ~150k, 15k OCIs, Duron XL 0w-30, runs better and stronger than ever (thanks to RocketChip stage 3)
[*] ~200k, sodapop6620, autozone, OEM, 10k, castrol 20w-50 (dino), sodapop6620 didn't say how it was running just that the clutch was starting to slip and he needed to replace a strut bushing - but i think his TDIs running just fine
[/list]none of the cars had fuel system components replaced due to wear (i thought one person may have had a defective fuel system component when the car was "young" but i can't find that info).

since all vehicles are running like new or better, and only one vehicle was modified with CAT fuel and bypass oil filters, this data indicates that the OEM oil and fuel filters can deliver TDI performance that is equal to new for 250,000 miles and beyond...

FWIW - one more 300k+ driver just PMd me their info:
<ul type="square">[*]313+k, BK, OEM, OEM, 10k, D1, "car ran really well" [/list] BK wrote - "No mods except the K&N air filter. The car still ran really well. Just felt it was time to get something for it before a trade in was worthless. Bought a 2005 Jetta last week."

 

[mikeyworks]

Re: 303K miles is all she\'s got!!!! Carnage insid

Deezleer,

I politely ask you to take three steps back away from this thread. With all due coutesy, I started this thread with intent to share information with the Club after an unfortunate incident with my engine due to incorrect maintenance, not a reliability issue.

With that said, to the rest who may care, I am planning on pulling the head off today to see what the top of the pistons look like...

Photos and updates to come.

Mikey

 

[silverbeast]

Re: 303K miles is all she\'s got!!!! Carnage insid

Mike,

I hear you brother…same thing happned to me back in January when my timing belt tensioner ( brand new after belt replacement) gave out, belt became loose, jumped 2 teeth and damaged two valves the cam and two broken tappets…damage was pretty much identical to yours…

1000 dollars later; got a used head with 60 miles on it that came complete with injectors (thanks to my dad that’s a mechanic and I didn’t have to pay any labour) and my TDI is happy and back on the road.
The final diagnose was: the stupid timing belt tensioner that I replaced back in September when I changed the timing belt, had broke and made the belt become loose therefore jumping a tooth and damaging the HEAD. I have purchased all these parts (timing belt, water pump and tensioner) when I did the timing belt change from Roseland Technical Services in Nova Scotia, Canda.
All the parts are dealer sourced, its just that he buys them in bulk and gets better prices, hence we pay less.
It just happened that the part had mulfunctioned and caused all that damage.

 

[Deezleer]

Re: 303K miles is all she\'s got!!!! Carnage insid

Mikey,

I guess you're right.

1st of all, to the person that asked why do I still hang around, I still have a TDI so I still want to learn as much as I can. I cannot "get rid" of it yet. I want to "get my money out of it" as it were. My problem is that I may actually keep it long enough to get the same results that are being discussed here.


I guess I am still extremely frustrated with all the problems I have had with this thing ( & that I payed so much for it new), so it takes control sometimes and I vent.


Please accept this apology people.



Rick

Deezleer,

I politely ask you to take three steps back away from this thread. With all due coutesy, I started this thread with intent to share information with the Club after an unfortunate incident with my engine due to incorrect maintenance, not a reliability issue.

With that said, to the rest who may care, I am planning on pulling the head off today to see what the top of the pistons look like...

Photos and updates to come.

Mikey

 

[TornadoRed]

303K miles is all she\'s got!!!!

VW diesels used to be reliable when they were mechanical. Now that they are laden with electronics and other politically correct devices they are no more reliable than a gasser(maybe less reliable). And when they break they will always cost more to fix. No more TDI's for me!

The mechanical parts are still pretty reliable, assuming proper maintenance. More reliable than your normal gas-engine car, certainly. Would anyone consider putting a new engine in a Chevy or Toyota with 300k miles? Or even a gas-engine VW with that mileage?

As for the electronics... I think we're all pretty familiar with the weaknesses.

As for costing more to fix... I had a timing chain break in a Saab once. It costs about the same to fix the damage as the TDI TB. The turbo in my Saab never gave me any trouble, but if it had the cost would have been similar.

 

[Muggins]

Re: 303K miles is all she\'s got!!!! Carnage insid

Deezleer, you have every right to express your opinions about TDIs. And if you're not a TDI cheerleader, so be it.

It's not a prerequisite to imbue these cars with animate qualities.

For some reason, it upsets some people when others are a little too objective about TDIs.

I'm one of those people who likes these cars but is aware of their frailties and isn't touchy about recognizing that fact.

Too bad so many people on this site wear rose-coloured glasses or act like Polly-Annas when it comes to TDIs.

You don't need to be a cheerleader to be here is what I'm saying.

 

[mikeyworks]

Re: 303K miles is all she\'s got!!!! Carnage insid

Mikey,

I guess you're right.
Please accept this apology people.

Rick

It takes a mouth to create an argument.
It takes a man to understand his downfalls and work to correct them.

Apology accepted!!!

Mike

 

[mikeyworks]

Re: 303K miles is all she\'s got!!!! Carnage insid

Well, today I took the head off to determine how bad the damage is. I was hoping that it was confined to the head, but no such luck.

See for yourself:

This is the top of Piston #1...the valve is not welded in, just sitting in the piston dish

The others don't look too bad, they have some of the shrapnell in them from #1, but no damage to the pistons, cylinder walls, or the head

And the bad part is the head:
The injector nozzle is toast as is the glow plug, so I will have three good injectors...just needs some work
I think the head as a whole is toast. I don't think it's salvagable...but some of you may believe otherwise, if so, please let me know

I hope you enjoyed it!!!

Mikey

 

[Muggins]

Re: 303K miles is all she\'s got!!!! Carnage insid

Those pictures are excellent. That's why they call it an interference engine.

With great efficiency and performance comes precise tolerances. Stray from that precision and there's a big price to pay.

I remember one time in an old Volvo at 75 mph the motor stalled. It was a broken timing gear. Made from something called bakelite, an early type of polymer or plastic.

Well, the tow back to town cost more than the repair. It was not an interference engine.

 

[nordska]

Re: 303K miles is all she\'s got!!!! Carnage insid

Wow!!

*cover my eyes*

I hope that doesnt happen to my tdi!!

 

[compu_85]

Re: 303K miles is all she\'s got!!!! Carnage insid

Mike, I hate to go off topic, but I have to ask somethin...

Our car had a similar timing belt problem as your car... it had skipped a tooth (according to the dealer) and stalled. The dealer pulled the head, found no damage, installed a new belt, retimed the engine (poorly) and sent us on our way. That was almost a year ago.

Would you reccomend replacing those pieces that failed in your engine ASAP?

-J

 

[mikeyworks]

Re: 303K miles is all she\'s got!!!! Carnage insid

Our car had a similar timing belt problem as your car... it had skipped a tooth (according to the dealer) and stalled. The dealer pulled the head, found no damage, installed a new belt, retimed the engine (poorly) and sent us on our way. That was almost a year ago.

Would you reccomend replacing those pieces that failed in your engine ASAP?

-J

I would check to see where the timing was off. If the timing was off on either the crank or the cam, then yes, I would stand up and shout it as loud as I can to at least get the valve integrity checked...maybe even replaced. There's no space for the valves to be even one tooth off in there w/o something hitting. Granted these are hydraulic heads with some "float" in the valves, but not enough to make space for the valve.

If the timing was only off on the pump, then you should be just fine.

Check to determine where the timing was off and then if necessary, take your car to your local trusted mechanic and have them likely replace the valves. That should be all you need.

Mikey

 

[Dan_Ruddock]

Re: 303K miles is all she\'s got!!!! Carnage insid

I would replace the lifters (you don't have to take the head off) But what broke first on this engine the lifter or the valve? I would say have the other intake or exhaust lifters magna flux tested for cracks. If the timing is set wrong it is going to hit all the intake valves or all the exhaust valves depending on wether the cam is one tooth advanced or retarded. When I did the belt on my engine one tooth off the engine will spin by hand with out feeling anything hit but a running engine is a different matter. Parts stretch under load and things will hit. Some one needs to do a good diagnoses on this to see what really happened. Dan

 

[compu_85]

Re: 303K miles is all she\'s got!!!! Carnage insid

MoGolf looked at my car last winter and said that the cam timing was off two teeth.

I'll call the dealership and see if they have reccords of exactly what they did.

-J

 

[mrchill]

Re: 303K miles is all she\'s got!!!! Carnage insid

The head could likely be saved, but would take extensive remachining. The tappet breaks first most of the time, this allows the cam to contact the valve stem and clean it off as the keepers pop right out in this situation. The valve then drops into the combustion chamber and the rest id history. This happens to MANY engines, from VW Tdi and 1.8 turbo to small block and big block GM and any v6 GM almost all Toyota and Honda etc.

The design is sound and acceptable. Breakage is situation, NOT design. Countless engines have I done, but I find VW's are the most easy and inexpensive to repair(really...no joke)when this type of damage occurs. And bear in mind, people usually repair a VW with this damage. Other vehicles are less likely to be repaired as the owners don't feel they are worth it. Subjective I know, but my experience.

Good luck. Hope you find what you need!

 

[Herm TDI]

Re: 303K miles is all she\'s got!!!! Carnage insid

I thought I would add some info to this thread.
I just did a TB on a Passat (B-4) and replaced the cam followers..and damn glad I did.

Due to the highly polished surface taking a clear photo wasn't easy. However you can see the signs of wear on the surface of these two followers.

 

[TornadoRed]

Re: 303K miles is all she\'s got!!!! Carnage insid

I thought I would add some info to this thread.
I just did a TB on a Passat (B-4) and replaced the cam followers..and damn glad I did.

How many miles on the Passat?

 

[Herm TDI]

Re: 303K miles is all she\'s got!!!! Carnage insid

Howdy <font color="red"> TornadoRed </font>

How many miles on the Passat?

Just as I had mentioned in a prior comment...This engine has a bit over 200K Mi

 

[dareo]

Re: 303K miles is all she\'s got!!!! Carnage insid

Good to know, i should inspect my cam followers.

 

[Harvieux]

Re: 303K miles is all she\'s got!!!! Carnage insid

I notice that quite a few TDI's I deal with have that lifter tapping immediately upon start up. Miles vary from as little as 20K to 100K+. It is my opinion that this lifter bleed down may promote stress rather than wear on the follower's surface resulting in the non-detection of applicable wear properties via UOA. Later!

 

[tongsli]

Re: 303K miles is all she\'s got!!!! Carnage insid

It's on it's way home !

 

[mikeyworks]

Re: 303K miles is all she\'s got!!!! Carnage insid

Thanks for the pics Lito...damn I am tired...550 miles of driving and I am wiped!!! But it was worth it!!!

Mikey

 

[mikeyworks]

Re: 303K miles is all she\'s got!!!! Carnage insid

Here's a couple more photos of the transaction...

The 'lil Ranger loaded down...that cherry picker really helps.

Nothing like using a tire to stabilize and shock absorb...I knew I kept it around for something.

The finances trade hands...

It was about 600 miles round trip!!!!
By am I tired!!!

Mikey

 

[McBrew]

Re: 303K miles is all she\'s got!!!! Carnage insid

Mikey,

Somehow, I haven't seen this thread until now. Geez... and that car is so pretty for 300k miles! Are you going to swap your oh-so-clean intake onto the new engine before it goes in?

Good luck with the engine swap. I hope this whole ordeal hasn't exacerbated that other problem that tends to occur... you know... that annoying screaching sound that comes from the passenger seat area?

 

[POWERSTROKE]

Re: 303K miles is all she\'s got!!!! Carnage insid

Mikey,

.......I hope this whole ordeal hasn't exacerbated that other problem that tends to occur... you know... that annoying screaching sound that comes from the passenger seat area?

Haha. Yeah, I have the same noise.

 

[mike71ghia]

Re: 303K miles is all she\'s got!!!! Carnage insid

Guys, I think someone needs to do a hardness test on the face of the lifter to even have any clue at all what is going on, lifters/cams/gears etc. are case hardened to a depth to have an extra hard surface for friction wear and soft tough core, they could be rubbing through to the softer core.Case hardening heats the metal in an environment with excess carbon and it migrates into the metal from the surface inwards making it hard. Notice the color change towards the center of the lifter? Find a machine shop or heat treater with a rockwell hardness tester and compare test results with a new lifter. And the old one, compare the hardness of the side and the face both center and edge. What looks like abrasive contamination scratches on the lifter shown above could realy be pressure welding from the cases' shallowest depths of the cam/lifter wearing through the case depth to one another.
Abrasive in the oil would leave you the same pattern all over all the lifter faces,but it would not be uncommon for a part not to have an even case depth as they want to only harden enough depth to make it last and there would be differences in the batch in the furnace. It takes more time in the furnace to case deeper <$$$>, they know how long the cycle life is, and it still needs a soft <uncased> core to not be so brittle as a whole part. A crack on the other hand would be VERY VERY quick to go once formed just from the forces involved in normal operation, and the cyclic vibration of operation would help propagate a crack even more quickly. Cracks can be easily spotted with magnaflux even if you can't see them.
If you don't have access to a hardness tester, put it in a vice and try to drill it, a drill won't touch it where the case still exists as it is about as hard as the bit but will fairly easily drill into the exposed soft core of most likel y cast steel or nodular iron.
my .02 cents towards understanding the problem.
While on the subject of case hardened parts in an engine, well you can see why a reground cam and lifter is a poor idea if done cheaply and not recased. Cheapo's sell themselves and gaurantee more parts sales in the end. I've seen bus loads of v8 guys over the years shopping for the cheapo rebuild kits wondering why the cams are flat in a few thousand miles and the rest of the engine is toast from all that metal going into it.What did I do wrong...

Even SCAT had a big problem with their lifters in aircooled vw's recently. It's getting realy hard to find reputable dependable parts for them.
Hope this helps you, and if you want to read more google "case hardening heat treatment"

 

[VW JUNKY]

Re: 303K miles is all she\'s got!!!! Carnage insid

Nice meeting you Mikey. I hope the motor works out for you. Thanks for showing me this thread so i can keep up with how the motor goes. Now i wish i did not pose in such a cheesy smile!

later,
Erick

 

[master cylinder]

Re: 303K miles is all she\'s got!!!! Carnage insid

It is highly unlikely (actually impossible through normal wear) to remove enough material from a carborized surface to reach the core no matter how light the case is. Low carbon steel usually carborizes at a rate of around 0.005" per hour (dependant on temperature, time and atmosphere). If in fact these lifter pucks are carborized (they may be neutral through hardened) they would surely have at least a minimum case of at least 0.005" which is beyond any depth of material removal of an engine with normal wear of even 300K miles. The lifters shown in an earlier post from the Passat engine only shows a polishing swirl from the rotation of the lifter by the cam swipe - I doubt if there is any wear beyond 0.0005".

Now grinding or improper heat treating are another story. In either case, the results would be catastrophic failure very early on in its life. Just my honest opinion from carborizing and through hardening bearing surfaces for 23 years.

 

[Dan_Ruddock]

Re: 303K miles is all she\'s got!!!! Carnage insid

I would have to agree with you master cylinder these failures that have been on this board lately are not from lifters wearing out but from timing belt problems/screw ups. Dan

 

[Herm TDI]

Re: 303K miles is all she\'s got!!!! Carnage insid

...The lifters shown in an earlier post from the Passat engine only shows a polishing swirl from the rotation of the lifter by the cam swipe - I doubt if there is any wear beyond 0.0005".

The prior photos were difficault to shoot a clear image of the cam follower ware. Here is another photo of the same follower..there are three units with the same amout of ware...this one you can see that the center of the follower face is about to fail...

But even this image isn't a clear dipiction of the ware. The best way would be to have a NDI kit and do a dye penitrent with a altra-violet light to show the area clearly

EDIT:
That verticle line in the center of the cam follower is not a smudge. That mark is smooth but certainly recessed. The circumferance around the center of the cam followers is also worn and recessed. The "edge" that you see in the center (12 O'Clock to 1 O'Clock) looks more like a seam crack. The engine that these followers came from ran like a clock and used as a daily driver. It was during the timing belt cnage that I just happened to notice something "odd" in how the surface looked when I have the valve cover off.