It will be a rude awakening for VW and the EPA...

[tadawson]

My issue is simply this: What is available that is equivalent (or better) that my SEL Passat TDI?

a) Similar trim and featured
b) Similar or greater interior space
c) Diesel *MANDATORY*
d) Not a turd

As I see it, pretty much takes me to a Mercedes or BMW . . . the Cruz is too much of a turd/joke to be looked at even casually . . . and what else is there?

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

Although some of us enthusiasts remain, a lot of threads here these days are full of statements like, "this is a deal I can't refuse," or "I'm angry at VW," "I don't drive as much as I used to," "these cars don't make sense unless fuel is $4/gallon," and others.

I encounter more than a few people that want to keep their CRs, some are car guys and gals, some are not. Some care about emissions and plan to have their cars repaired, some don't. Some just like how their TDI drives. One couple I know want a comfortable European feeling sedan that gets 40+ MPG and has a manual transmission. Where else can they get that?

The future of these cars is unclear, just as VW's place, if any, in the diesel market is unclear. In light of that some people are hanging on to what they have because they're concerned they may not have another opportunity to buy. Makes sense to me.

 

[ccbsecu]

actually, you're not getting 15.5k for the car.
You are getting roughly 10k for the car and 5k settlement. You would get the 5k whether you kept it or not. there would be more money if you had got the 5k and sold the car separately to a 3rd party.
IMO the best play to maximize the money in a sellback scenario would be to drive it for 2 more years (essentially depreciation free) and THEN sell it back.
But even then it may be more profitable to just take the fix money and sell it to a private party. If it's anything like the 2005 passats and other PD's then these cars will actually appreciate in price after the realization sinks in that "day ain't makin dem inna moar"
BTW gratz on the BMW

$5k, $10k or $15k....it all spends the same

Keeping the car 2 more years isn't an option, I drive too many miles and found the 335d I really wanted.

The 335d is AMAZING BTW. With a tune and deletes, plus methanol kit ~ 430 whp and ~ 640 TQ. And, 40 mpg's to boot.

 

[ccbsecu]

I was speaking of new vehicles, sorry. But you are clearly of the mantra that there is more to life than money, as you just purchased a used BMW! Those are neat cars, but man did they tank fast in value from new if you only gave $14k for one... WOW.

Most think that way (new car), but the 335d was a one owner, serviced at the same dealer by the owner, and returned to the dealer on trade. All service records, carbon cleaning and walnut blasting done 1 month before it was traded....60k sticker new on this car vs 24k on the Jetta I'm selling back.

I'm just saying you can find a equal, or even better replacement in some instances.

If I knew how - I'd post a pic...

 

[mydecember1985]

I saw that other thread about how the buybacks will be fixed and resold. I'd love to wait it out and find a 2011-2012 JSW with around 50k miles like ours. No sunroof and a 6spd. White on Tan or Silver on Black. Our current 2011 is a lemon(sunroof, radio, TPMS, speed sensors, A/C, etc.). If I could pick up something like the above for $12ish that stilll has the HPFP warranty out til 2021 and/or 120k, I'd be on it like white on rice.

 

[bubbagumpshrimp]

I saw that other thread about how the buybacks will be fixed and resold. I'd love to wait it out and find a 2011-2012 JSW with around 50k miles like ours. No sunroof and a 6spd. White on Tan or Silver on Black. Our current 2011 is a lemon(sunroof, radio, TPMS, speed sensors, A/C, etc.). If I could pick up something like the above for $12ish that stilll has the HPFP warranty out til 2021 and/or 120k, I'd be on it like white on rice.

I'm curious to see how many cars they'd even be able to do that with. By the time they toss out cars that have had the emissions system deleted and preventative maintenance skipped for a significant length of time...I'm not thinking that they'll have too many contenders.

 

[autdi]

I'm curious to see how many cars they'd even be able to do that with. By the time they toss out cars that have had the emissions system deleted and preventative maintenance skipped for a significant length of time...I'm not thinking that they'll have too many contenders.

Emissions delete, tiny fraction, sure crush em, but those may be the best maintained otherwise, someone who knew what they had drove it.
Skipped PM cars, you mean like the 90% of the other trades most dealers take in?

If they re-sell them, they get most of the car price back, about the same cost to them as if they had repaired it and you still held it.

 

[Warthog]

What is so curious to me about this whole thing is ANY auto with a computer-controlled engine is able to adjust itself to any driving conditions.
I think somebody had a case on for VW.
That said, in this area and probably many others...the "machos" with big diesel trucks have altered their engines so they can SMOKE-YOU whenever they feel like it!
Please tell me how this is OK with the EPA?
If we put cow-Pee in our engines will that fix it?

 

[turbobrick240]

Emissions delete, tiny fraction, sure crush em, but those may be the best maintained otherwise, someone who knew what they had drove it.
Skipped PM cars, you mean like the 90% of the other trades most dealers take in?

If they re-sell them, they get most of the car price back, about the same cost to them as if they had repaired it and you still held it.

Agreed. A super tiny fraction are deleted. I'm also fairly certain that most tdi owners are far better about maintaining their cars than the typical owner of other makes.

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

Since they're replacing several parts of the emissions system, I'm not sure that an emissions delete would be a deal breaker. And skipped routine maintenance? Do you really think a dealer could tell, or would care? Caveat Emptor.

 

[bhtooefr]

I think somebody had a case on for VW.

Volkswagen.

Admitted.

It.

And, someone's actually looked at the ECU firmware, and actually found the cheat code.

This isn't some conspiracy against VW. VW really did this.

That said, in this area and probably many others...the "machos" with big diesel trucks have altered their engines so they can SMOKE-YOU whenever they feel like it!
Please tell me how this is OK with the EPA?

It's not OK with the EPA! The problem is, enforcement against individual cars is a state thing, not a federal thing, so the EPA can't really do anything if the state doesn't. The EPA is going after truck tuning companies that knowingly tune on-road trucks, though, and shutting them down, and they tried to change regulations to close the off-road loophole (basically saying that they wouldn't use those regulations against actual off-road use, but that it would be illegal unless the vehicle was never produced for the road in the first place), but Congress threatened to shoot that down, so they backed down.

 

[GoFaster]

Since they're replacing several parts of the emissions system, I'm not sure that an emissions delete would be a deal breaker. And skipped routine maintenance? Do you really think a dealer could tell, or would care? Caveat Emptor.

The step-by-step video for dealers that someone posted, makes absolutely zero reference to what happens if the "fix" is to be done to a vehicle that is in any condition other than bone stock and fully operational.

 

[tadawson]

What is so curious to me about this whole thing is ANY auto with a computer-controlled engine is able to adjust itself to any driving conditions.
I think somebody had a case on for VW.
That said, in this area and probably many others...the "machos" with big diesel trucks have altered their engines so they can SMOKE-YOU whenever they feel like it!
Please tell me how this is OK with the EPA?
If we put cow-Pee in our engines will that fix it?

It isn't and is illegal as well. Ask the numerous tuner companies that got the snot sued out of themselves by the EPA in the last few years about that . . . They just don't go directly after Bubba and Goober - not worth the effort.

 

[Redgrom]

...and 5 years down the road??? Sorry, I just tend to be a little less hasty and reactionary. It may seem like an "upgrade for free" right now, but seriously how many people who could afford a new $25k Volkswagen could have afforded a new $50k BMW? And of those, who could afford to maintain one?

I get it, I am not comparing a 5-series to a Jetta in the caliber of car department, but don't think for a second that a used car is any less of a car to take care of long term. I have this discussion a lot with people, most recently someone whose butthole turned inside out when presented with the cost of a new headlight bulb in his Audi A8L. Well, the car may be a decade old, and it may only be worth $XXXXX, but it is STILL a ~$90k car in my book, and thus the $250+ headlight bulb change (HID, bumper cover with its TWENTY PIN connector wiring harness needs to come off) doesn't seem too crazy.

And that is where I think some of the "I upgraded from a Jetta to a 5-series" crowd may be in for a rude awakening when the control arms need to be replaced, or the run flat tires need to be replaced, or really any of the wallet emptying things that some of the more expensive cars may need to stay in service come up.

It is a constant struggle here (meaning, here at our shop, not on this forum) for the champagne lifestyle on a beer budget mantra that a lot of people find themselves slipping into. I hope most Volkswagen owners are a little more level headed about this, and I do think they are. But there are some that are not.

A friend of mine once said "There is no such thing as a cheap Mercedes" and he is probably right.

Please don't take this the wrong way but in southern Orange County the labor rate is pretty much the same at my old vw dealership as it is at my BMW dealership. And the local guru I found for the BMW is a little less. So far service has been the same cost. The few upgrades I've looked at at similarly priced, brake job was also very close if not basically the same. I'm not saying a major repair might not be more on the BMW but I know I couldn't sit down for over a week when the hpfp went on my jsw. I will say that run flats are definitely a bit more$$ and I go through tires a little quicker with awd but it's so much fun to drive I don't care!
I will say that the wife's V60 is a bit pricy, oil change was almost $100. Guess I should have made time to do it before our trip or actually put 10000 miles on the original oil. Really just saying in my area vw maintenance is priced right alongside the rest of the euro market.

 

[Rico567]

I'm curious to see how many cars they'd even be able to do that with. By the time they toss out cars that have had the emissions system deleted and preventative maintenance skipped for a significant length of time...I'm not thinking that they'll have too many contenders.

I have enough reservations about the long term issues of the car we have now to turn it in for the buyback, although to date it's been a great car and we like it a lot. That being the case, and given some of the things I've read in these forums, I am certainly not going to take any chances on purchasing a Buybackmobile that's been "fixed." Uh-uh.

 

[oilhammer]

Please don't take this the wrong way but in southern Orange County the labor rate is pretty much the same at my old vw dealership as it is at my BMW dealership. And the local guru I found for the BMW is a little less. So far service has been the same cost. The few upgrades I've looked at at similarly priced, brake job was also very close if not basically the same. I'm not saying a major repair might not be more on the BMW but I know I couldn't sit down for over a week when the hpfp went on my jsw. I will say that run flats are definitely a bit more$$ and I go through tires a little quicker with awd but it's so much fun to drive I don't care!
I will say that the wife's V60 is a bit pricy, oil change was almost $100. Guess I should have made time to do it before our trip or actually put 10000 miles on the original oil. Really just saying in my area vw maintenance is priced right alongside the rest of the euro market.

There is ZERO chance a brake job on even a 3-series base model BMW is the same as a Jetta.

And have you priced a HPFP on the BMW diesel? I have, since we've had those here with dead ones. They got towed away unfixed.

That BMW is an awesome car, but do not think for one second that it will be less costly to own and operate than your Jetta was. You have to pay to play.

Speaking of which, local guy here is toying around with putting an ALH in his old E30. That would be pretty sweet methinks! Of course the purist in me does not like the idea of removing the I6 that is still in perfect working order, as that is one awesome engine and unlike the newer BMW stuff does not seem to break...ever...at all. In 320k miles, that car (which is nearing 30 years of service!) has had no engine work at all besides filters, fluids, timing belts, and some hoses. Has not even needed a head gasket! And the Getrag 5-speed it is bolted to still works great, too. We did have to rebuild the diff (bearings) a few years ago, though.

 

[Ted Hurst]

I'm not sure if this is going to be a Rude Awakening for the EPA. Already most people have indicated that they will be turning in their vehicles. I really like my TDI and I'm going to motor on for another 2 years worth of depreciation free driving. In a couple years the landscape could change so I'm just going to motor on and enjoy the golden years of the TDI CR.

 

[oilhammer]

The only "rude awakening" is that this whole fiasco will have done absolutely nothing for "clean air". Because I would venture to say that unless the people turning in their TDIs are simply not going to buy another car and move to some self sustaining farm somewhere in the country and never drive again, the impact these cars had or will not have will be unnoticed. More likely, the vast majority of these cars will be replaced with cars that use MORE fuel.

So instead of NOx that only causes problems in high concentrations under very specific conditions and separates back out into nitrogen and oxygen in a few weeks, there will instead be a bunch more CO, HC, etc. pushed into the atmosphere that causes problems over a much wider range of conditions and lasts much longer.

Cutting off the left hand to spite the right hand.

Now *maybe* this will be the catalyst to trend towards better cars in general, but I seriously doubt it. Volkswagen's own showrooms now reveal zero TDIs, but will shortly offer yet another Stupid Useless Vehicle, bigger than anything they've had previous, to the mix.

"Hey, the EPA said we cannot sell 50 MPG cars that people obviously want, so here's a 20 MPG SUV instead!"

 

[HBarlow]

The only "rude awakening" is that this whole fiasco will have done absolutely nothing for "clean air". Because I would venture to say that unless the people turning in their TDIs are simply not going to buy another car and move to some self sustaining farm somewhere in the country and never drive again, the impact these cars had or will not have will be unnoticed. More likely, the vast majority of these cars will be replaced with cars that use MORE fuel.

So instead of NOx that only causes problems in high concentrations under very specific conditions and separates back out into nitrogen and oxygen in a few weeks, there will instead be a bunch more CO, HC, etc. pushed into the atmosphere that causes problems over a much wider range of conditions and lasts much longer.

Cutting off the left hand to spite the right hand.

Now *maybe* this will be the catalyst to trend towards better cars in general, but I seriously doubt it. Volkswagen's own showrooms now reveal zero TDIs, but will shortly offer yet another Stupid Useless Vehicle, bigger than anything they've had previous, to the mix.

"Hey, the EPA said we cannot sell 50 MPG cars that people obviously want, so here's a 20 MPG SUV instead!"

THAT is a powerful statement!

I agree 100%.

 

[gcodori]

My issue is simply this: What is available that is equivalent (or better) that my SEL Passat TDI?
a) Similar trim and featured
b) Similar or greater interior space
c) Diesel *MANDATORY*
d) Not a turd
As I see it, pretty much takes me to a Mercedes or BMW . . . the Cruz is too much of a turd/joke to be looked at even casually . . . and what else is there?

I also own a Passat SEL (2013). I also want another diesel.

You can get a 2011-2013 e350 for $20K -25K. Just make sure that the oil seal has been replaced with the new version.

You can pick up a BMW X5 35D for around the same price. Nice ride but less MPG.

You can also check out the ML and GL SUVs from MB - they also come is oil burner form.

You can check out the Chevy Malibu Hybrid. Don't laugh - they have REALLY improved GM vehicles. Get's 50 MPG if I'm not mistaken. Let me tell you about our last Chevy...
My wife's previous ride was a Suzuki XL7 (Chevy Equinox, Japanese body, built in Canada) which took a T-bone strike on the drivers side. The minivan that hit was was toast - sent the driver to the hospital. My wife walked away with some scratches. While the Suzuki was totaled it was still drivable and the door still opened. Saved her life.

That should get you started.

 

[tadawson]

Should have also mentioned, zero interest in used . . . no desire to inherit others problems . . .

 

[sriracha]

The only "rude awakening" is that this whole fiasco will have done absolutely nothing for "clean air"....

...More likely, the vast majority of these cars will be replaced with cars that use MORE fuel.....

"Hey, the EPA said we cannot sell 50 MPG cars that people obviously want, so here's a 20 MPG SUV instead!"

Assuming the EPA is in bed with the fuel companies, this was most likely the goal all along.

At the time these diesel regulations were set in stone, they were offering $3000+ tax rebates on "ranch vehicle" SUVs.

As long as 10mpg lifted trucks are allowed to exist on the roads, I will happily drive 45mpg in my TDI guilt free.

 

[atomicfront]

The only "rude awakening" is that this whole fiasco will have done absolutely nothing for "clean air". Because I would venture to say that unless the people turning in their TDIs are simply not going to buy another car and move to some self sustaining farm somewhere in the country and never drive again, the impact these cars had or will not have will be unnoticed. More likely, the vast majority of these cars will be replaced with cars that use MORE fuel.

So instead of NOx that only causes problems in high concentrations under very specific conditions and separates back out into nitrogen and oxygen in a few weeks, there will instead be a bunch more CO, HC, etc. pushed into the atmosphere that causes problems over a much wider range of conditions and lasts much longer.

Cutting off the left hand to spite the right hand.

Now *maybe* this will be the catalyst to trend towards better cars in general, but I seriously doubt it. Volkswagen's own showrooms now reveal zero TDIs, but will shortly offer yet another Stupid Useless Vehicle, bigger than anything they've had previous, to the mix.

"Hey, the EPA said we cannot sell 50 MPG cars that people obviously want, so here's a 20 MPG SUV instead!"

Yeah every time they solve one problem they create a worse problem. Like when they added MTBE to gasoline to cause less air pollution and it was causing cancer getting into the water supply. Or how they replaced chlorofluorocarbons in Air conditioners with hydrochlorofluorocarbons to protect the Ozone and now they are causing massive global warming instead.

And VW at least doesn't cheat on MPG ratings like other companies. We always exceed on MPG ratings on the TDI. My prior BMW claimed 33 MPG highway. I never got over 25 MPG.

 

[HBarlow]

Yeah every time they solve one problem they create a worse problem. Like when they added MTBE to gasoline to cause less air pollution and it was causing cancer getting into the water supply. Or how they replaced chlorofluorocarbons in Air conditioners with hydrochlorofluorocarbons to protect the Ozone and now they are causing massive global warming instead.

And VW at least doesn't cheat on MPG ratings like other companies. We always exceed on MPG ratings on the TDI. My prior BMW claimed 33 MPG highway. I never got over 25 MPG.

Like.

 

[oilhammer]

Yeah every time they solve one problem they create a worse problem. Like when they added MTBE to gasoline to cause less air pollution and it was causing cancer getting into the water supply. Or how they replaced chlorofluorocarbons in Air conditioners with hydrochlorofluorocarbons to protect the Ozone and now they are causing massive global warming instead.

And VW at least doesn't cheat on MPG ratings like other companies. We always exceed on MPG ratings on the TDI. My prior BMW claimed 33 MPG highway. I never got over 25 MPG.

The newer gasoline caused about a 1000% increase in the rate of fuel pump failures, among all kinds of other fuel system related problems, the likes of which I am certain cause a lot of pollution to remedy I am sure. Because I know for certain tons of evaporative emissions were spewed out during these repairs that would have otherwise never have been needed in the first place.

 

[ccbsecu]

There is ZERO chance a brake job on even a 3-series base model BMW is the same as a Jetta.

And have you priced a HPFP on the BMW diesel? I have, since we've had those here with dead ones. They got towed away unfixed.

That BMW is an awesome car, but do not think for one second that it will be less costly to own and operate than your Jetta was. You have to pay to play.

Speaking of which, local guy here is toying around with putting an ALH in his old E30. That would be pretty sweet methinks! Of course the purist in me does not like the idea of removing the I6 that is still in perfect working order, as that is one awesome engine and unlike the newer BMW stuff does not seem to break...ever...at all. In 320k miles, that car (which is nearing 30 years of service!) has had no engine work at all besides filters, fluids, timing belts, and some hoses. Has not even needed a head gasket! And the Getrag 5-speed it is bolted to still works great, too. We did have to rebuild the diff (bearings) a few years ago, though.

That's why I bought the 5 year, 100k warranty for about 2,500....it'll pay for itself in the long run.

BTW - had the 335d dyno'd today.....making 430 whp and 650 tq, and gets 40 mpg

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

BTW - had the 335d dyno'd today.....making 430 whp and 650 tq, and gets 40 mpg

I hope you enjoy the irony of replacing your bought back TDI with a car that has its emissions systems deleted.

 

[ccbsecu]

...and 5 years down the road??? Sorry, I just tend to be a little less hasty and reactionary. It may seem like an "upgrade for free" right now, but seriously how many people who could afford a new $25k Volkswagen could have afforded a new $50k BMW? And of those, who could afford to maintain one?

I get it, I am not comparing a 5-series to a Jetta in the caliber of car department, but don't think for a second that a used car is any less of a car to take care of long term. I have this discussion a lot with people, most recently someone whose butthole turned inside out when presented with the cost of a new headlight bulb in his Audi A8L. Well, the car may be a decade old, and it may only be worth $XXXXX, but it is STILL a ~$90k car in my book, and thus the $250+ headlight bulb change (HID, bumper cover with its TWENTY PIN connector wiring harness needs to come off) doesn't seem too crazy.

And that is where I think some of the "I upgraded from a Jetta to a 5-series" crowd may be in for a rude awakening when the control arms need to be replaced, or the run flat tires need to be replaced, or really any of the wallet emptying things that some of the more expensive cars may need to stay in service come up.

It is a constant struggle here (meaning, here at our shop, not on this forum) for the champagne lifestyle on a beer budget mantra that a lot of people find themselves slipping into. I hope most Volkswagen owners are a little more level headed about this, and I do think they are. But there are some that are not.

A friend of mine once said "There is no such thing as a cheap Mercedes" and he is probably right.

This is very true - a 90k car new doesn't suddenly cost less to maintain because it's 3 or 4 years old.

Someone mentioned a brake job on a 3 series costing less than a Jetta....not true.

The rotors are replaced, not turned on a BMW. It's a $400 brake job.

 

[ccbsecu]

I hope you enjoy the irony of replacing your bought back TDI with a car that has its emissions systems deleted.

The real irony - if VW didn't buy back my Jetta (and likely the Treg), I'd still be driving two emissions cheating vehicles.

BTW - I enjoy the hell out of it.

 

[vintovka]

Both my forays into diesel cars have now been absolute disasters due to EPA, First it was my beloved 83 Datsun Maxima diesel. EPA "reformulated" diesel it in CA and blew the innards out of the HPFP. I sprayed the road on the way to the shop with a 20 gallons on a rainy day. Loved flooring it and leaving a smoke screen obscuring the road and wiping out tailgaters. F EPA and the "environment". Its lost anyway due to simple population increases,