it ain't as green as it looks

[Kayakkermit]

http://www.edmontonsun.com/News/Columnists/Hicks_Graham/2007/04/13/4002087.html

A few more "it ain't as green as it looks" observation.
* Automotive articles suggest hybrid (gas/electric powered) vehicles could be more damaging to the environment than gas-powered competitors.
It's those enormous batteries. They're energy-intensive to make, use hundreds of pounds of toxic heavy metals, eventually are replaced with new batteries, and as a hazardous waste are expensive to dispose.
Hybrids are not getting the mileage that was expected. U.S. fuel ratings are revising the miles-per-gallon hybrid ratings. More gallons. Fewer miles.
* The feds introduced a rebate to buy gas-conserving cars. The only vehicle meeting the standard was the Toyota Yaris (and, we presume, the Mercedes' Smart Car). Fine, said Honda, we'll strip the safety features out of the Civic (less weight, better mileage) so our car can qualify for the subsidy. This makes sense?
When I don't have to haul kids, I'll drive a small (safe) vehicle without an incentive. Because I'm cheap - and environmentally conscious.
* The requirement that ethanol be blended into gas for the environment: It takes more energy to produce ethanol from corn, straw etc. than is in the ethanol itself. In other words, ethanol is an energy-guzzling fuel pig.
* New diesel cars - delivering 30% more fuel efficiency than gas, with today's diesel quality and emission controls - are arguably the most environmentally friendly vehicles on the road.

 

[Joe_Meehan]

Like the claims made in favor of those things the objections raises contain both fact incorrect conclusions.

For example the ethanol issue. Claims are made that it will reduce emissions, it will but not by increasing mileage. It will as replace gasoline reducing our dependence on oil, it will, but only if it is using waste farm products and certain farm products, but not the corn that is most popular and only economical with large subsidies.

On the other side diesels can and usually do deliver higher fuel mileage, but if we were to shift say 50% of the existing automobiles to diesel, then there would not be enough diesel and there would be a potential for a greater waste.

The questions and answers are complex and are easy to USE to prove what ever point you want. Most of the time they are used by big business to make money, bending the truth a little.

 

[hevster1]

Like the claims made in favor of those things the objections raises contain both fact incorrect conclusions.

For example the ethanol issue. Claims are made that it will reduce emissions, it will but not by increasing mileage. It will as replace gasoline reducing our dependence on oil, it will, but only if it is using waste farm products and certain farm products, but not the corn that is most popular and only economical with large subsidies.

On the other side diesels can and usually do deliver higher fuel mileage, but if we were to shift say 50% of the existing automobiles to diesel, then there would not be enough diesel and there would be a potential for a greater waste.

The questions and answers are complex and are easy to USE to prove what ever point you want. Most of the time they are used by big business to make money, bending the truth a little.

Well said. This also applies to lots of things lately such as global warming.

 

[Variant TDI]

It's those enormous batteries. They're energy-intensive to make, use hundreds of pounds of toxic heavy metals, eventually are replaced with new batteries, and as a hazardous waste are expensive to dispose.

Is this true?
Are they enormous? To what relative standard? The entire Prius Battery fits neatly under the back seat.
Are NiMH batteries energy intensive to make? Does this energy intensive process reflect in their bargain basement $0.70/WH retail cost?
Do they really contain hundreds of pounds of heavy metals, when the entire battery weighs just a bit more than 110 pounds?
Is the waste hazardous? Is it expensive to dispose of? Or is it actually profitable?

You are looking to idiots for information. Activists often make this mistake.

Oddly enough... the only true environmental dig on Hybrid powerpacks is MISSING from this ridiculous rant.

 

[boraTDI04]

batts cost 600 to like 6500 and if the hybrid is 5 years old and worth as much as the batt. does it look that economical. and especially the batts. disposal is a totally different subject. like using certain chemicals to breakdown what a battery like that can do.

 

[Variant TDI]

Since you seem to know... Tell me the chemicals used to recycle a NiMH battery.

 

[abstraxion]

I was under the impression that diesel, as a petroleum distillate, is formed from the same crude as gasoline. Therefore, if 50% of cars really did switch to diesel, couldn't we just modify existing refineries to produce more diesel and less gasoline?

 

[Joe_Meehan]

I was under the impression that diesel, as a petroleum distillate, is formed from the same crude as gasoline. Therefore, if 50% of cars really did switch to diesel, couldn't we just modify existing refineries to produce more diesel and less gasoline?

Well not always that easy. Crude contains a mix to start with. Different crude will have different mixes. A given crude may be 30% gasoline 30% diesel and a mix if the rest. In the refining process they can "push" the process around to get more of one product and less of another. A small push is easy, but when you start talking a major change in the mix then it gets expensive and inefficient.

I don't know where we are now in the mix and I might add that it changes depending on the time if year (winter heating oil competes with diesel).

 

[danielttt]

Squash a Prius w/ a Hummer for the sake of the Earth

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Fuzzy climate math[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]By George Will [/FONT]
http://jewishworldreview.com/cols/will041207.php3
"Speaking of Hummers, perhaps it is environmentally responsible to buy one and squash a Prius with it. The Prius hybrid is, of course, fuel-efficient. There are, however, environmental costs to mining and smelting (in Canada) 1,000 tons a year of zinc for the battery-powered second motor, and the shipping of the zinc 10,000 miles — trailing a cloud of carbon dioxide — to Wales for refining and then to China for turning it into the component that is then sent to a battery factory in Japan."

 

[hevster1]

Since you seem to know... Tell me the chemicals used to recycle a NiMH battery.

I have no idea. I will tell you that during the 1st generation battery campain we replaced the buss bars, nuts and cleaned the terminals. We were required to douse the old parts with an alkaline solution and pack em into a drum clearly marked as hazardous waste. If and when a battery replacement is required it will be harder to dispose of than a regular car.
Hybrids were designed as a way to reduce emissions until hydrogen fuel cells are perfected. Their production had quite a bit to do with california's ZEV/PZEV mandate. Their design had nothing to do with fuel prices.