Is this accelleration... normal?

300k_logician

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 24, 2018
Location
Kansas. The middle of nowhere.
TDI
2000 Jetta ALH 5-speed
So, before I go into what I think are deficiencies, let me give a bit of context:
Before I bought my TDI (MKIV, Jetta, ALH), I was driving a 4-door 3-cylinder Geo Metro around (it was cheap). So when I got the TDI, it felt like the acceleration was amazing. Relatively.


Since I bought it at 290k miles, I have changed the Timing Belt twice in my 40k miles of owning it (Oil contamination mandated premature replacement), and didn't really figure out the "start of injection" timing calibration with the VAG-COM. Fuel economy didn't drop.
I had also been running SeaQuential Pacific B20 blends in it, and I keep the fuel tank above half full at all times.
I didn't notice much difference with the B20, but occasionally wondered about acceleration, so the last two months I've only been getting Chevron and Shell diesel. The PO reported the dealer said it needed a new turbo (occasionally I'll get a Positive Deviation code).


Anyhow, there's a certain hill I may be commuting over soon (For those of you who are in the Portland area, US-26 over the Sylvan Hill), and the car seems to have very terrible acceleration on any incline, this one especially. (like I can't pass someone on the Freeway until the terrain levels out)


So, in the Diagnosing and Fixing low boost, we learned about the N-75. I swapped the parts and headed up the hill. Traffic volumes mandated that I begin at 50MPH. I was in 4th. Pedal to the floor... 50MPH.
3rd. Pedal to the floor, 50MPH.
The turbo didn't kick off this time, though, although it is a place where it commonly will happen if I'm not careful.

I know, from prior experience, 5th gear will carry me up if I begin at 60.



Wikipedia sources state that the hill grade is about 6.5%. Am I the only one who has this issue on this steep of a hill? Or is that supposed to be how a 90hp engine performs?


Thanks for the help guys. :)
 

hskrdu

Top Post Dawg
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Location
Maryland and New England
TDI
2003 Golf GLS 4D 5M, 2015 GSW SE 6M
My MkIV's (and all those in good running condition) will charge uphills leaving many gassers downshifting in the rear view mirror behind you.


I'm guessing you're going into a limp mode with no CEL? Others will chime in, but something isn't right.
 

Tdijarhead

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 10, 2013
Location
Lawrenceville PA
TDI
2003 TDI Jetta Daughters Car, 2001 TDI Beetle, Wife’s car, 2005 Golf TDI Mine, all 5 spds
Have you checked the intercooler pipes behind the front passanger wheel. That’s the lowest point in your boost system and when a turbo is bad and starts to pass oil that will be where it accumulates. Pull the pipe apart at the intercooler and check how much oil is in there. A film to a cupful is more or less normal. More and your turbo will probably need replacing. Does oil drip out your tail pipe?

Have you checked the actuator on the turbo itself? This is done with a mityvac or similar tool. Does the actuator hold vacuum? Does it move freely without any grinding noise as you apply vacuum? Is the vacuum line between the new N75 and the actuator intact with no leaks?
 

cleaver

Veteran Member
Joined
May 8, 2006
Location
Berwick, Nova Scotia
TDI
None - did own '01 and '02 Jetta TDI
Traffic volumes mandated that I begin at 50MPH. I was in 4th. Pedal to the floor... 50MPH.
3rd. Pedal to the floor, 50MPH.
The turbo didn't kick off this time, though, although it is a place where it commonly will happen if I'm not careful.
I would say your turbo has already kicked out if you can only do 50MPH. When the car is in limp mode your car maxes out around 65MPH on a flat road.

My sig has the link to the correct way of diagnosing limp mode but TDIJARHEAD's comment is a quick start.
 

steve6

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May 25, 2010
Location
Beaverton, ON
TDI
2003 jetta tdi
How do you know the 'turbo didn't kick off this time'? are you watching its levels? Use a scanner to see what kind of boost you're getting, it almost sounds like you're getting none all the time..

Check your timing/iq and check for boost levels/if turbo is working, ccould be a handful of items causing the turbo to not work or work incorrectly.
 

WolfgangVW

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Joined
Oct 16, 2011
Location
Alberta, Canada
TDI
2003 Jetta TDI - Manual
Ya not how the 90HP engine performs. Pulling up hills like this is kinda right in this cars wheelhouse. I've never considered my ALH peppy ( i know they can be ), but it'll pull up hills even with some weight in it like no ones business, and in 4th gear on hills that leaves my 5.0 Mustang wanting 2nd!

Not sure what the problem might be. First inclination is limp mode. But prior posts have covered that and possible other issues.... good luck!
 

Nero Morg

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OR
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2014 A6 TDI, 2001 Jetta TDI, 2014 Passat TDI
I drive sylvan hill every day as I live in beaverton and work on Swan Island. Before my tune my car would champ up that hill at 65 in 5th no problem. I had similar issues before I had made all the repairs to my car, you're definitely going into limp mode, probably for overboost. I have VCDS and all sorts of other tools if you need a local hand with it, just pm me.
 

300k_logician

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Joined
Feb 24, 2018
Location
Kansas. The middle of nowhere.
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2000 Jetta ALH 5-speed
Usually I can feel the turbo kicking off when it goes. I knew it didn't totally go out this time, because when I took the exit at the top of the hill and flipped around, I could hear the turbo whistling. If it'd kicked off I would've needed to restart the engine.


The last couple times it went into limp mode the CEL didn't activate, but every time it did (that I pulled the code anyway) it was overboost.



Now to be quite honest, it's been a while since I cleaned out the intercooler. I probably should've changed my air filter a lot sooner than I did, and before I did, every time I revved above 3,000 RPM it would suck oil through the crankcase breather. So, duh, I should've done that before I posted.

I've clean it out and we'll see how it goes.
 

Nero Morg

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Sometimes it's not noticeable when it goes into limp mode until you need the turbo. As for the turbo whistle, it'll still whistle, but the VNT won't actuate so it won't build boost past around 5psi.
 

cleaver

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Joined
May 8, 2006
Location
Berwick, Nova Scotia
TDI
None - did own '01 and '02 Jetta TDI
If that doesn't fix it, just start following this link:
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=179589

I had the EXACT same issues you have; I diagnosed a bit here and there, but never really spent the time to find the problem. After a while I just ignored it and reset my limp mode through my scanguage every time (no CEL ever).

In the end, my turbo let go and took out my engine.
 

300k_logician

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Joined
Feb 24, 2018
Location
Kansas. The middle of nowhere.
TDI
2000 Jetta ALH 5-speed
Now that I think of it, the turbo was definitely louder when I first bought it. It was throwing a code when I used the turbo much, but I couldn't shift at high RPM's much anyway due to the throwout bearing being in pieces. Since then I've fixed it, but, yeah, the turbo mechanism definitely needs work.


I checked the intercooler. I had to use paper towels to soak out a little bit of oil, but none dripped out when I removed the pipe.


I'm 95% sure, now, that I should be hearing the turbo louder when it's above 2500 RPM (vs. not really hearing much besides the engine).


I've utilize the vacuum pump and go from there.


Side track: Should I just get a Bentley manual?
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
TDI
'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
Your car should be able to climb a 6.5% grade at 80 MPH no problem. Or accelerate up that grade.

You may have one of any number of issues that are preventing your car from making the power it should. Diagnosing and fixing them without prior experience can, at best, be time consuming, and at worst be expensive and unsuccessful.

If you're in Portland I suggest you take the car to Rich at Fix Um Haus and let him diagnose and fix the car. It'll cost you a few dollars in labor, but he'll be able to quickly figure out what's wrong and fix what's actually broken.
 

Nero Morg

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OR
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2014 A6 TDI, 2001 Jetta TDI, 2014 Passat TDI
He came over and we took a look at it, the hard plastic line right at the brake booster was cracked. Swapped in a spare I had and he was able to build 24inhg of vacuum. Before it would max out at 10inhg.
 

Nero Morg

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Joined
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Spoke too soon. Found an issue, fixed it, then came back. We'll be checking the intake and IQ later. 1.3mg/s seems a bit high on a stock car.
 

300k_logician

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Joined
Feb 24, 2018
Location
Kansas. The middle of nowhere.
TDI
2000 Jetta ALH 5-speed
He came over and we took a look at it, the hard plastic line right at the brake booster was cracked. Swapped in a spare I had and he was able to build 24inhg of vacuum. Before it would max out at 10inhg.
Well, I sure didn't see that one coming:


https://drive.google.com/open?id=1GOv3m5j8Zz0JVZs9tLXA65P5CFSbDgzy


(Sorry, it appears google doesn't like hosting images for forums.)



Thanks to Neo Morg for his help. I didn't realize how bad my brake booster was functioning.


Unfortunately, I'm still having trouble with the Sylvan Hill. I got caught in the left lane at 50MPH during my road test. Looks like we're not out of the woods yet. But it's definitely better.
 
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300k_logician

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Joined
Feb 24, 2018
Location
Kansas. The middle of nowhere.
TDI
2000 Jetta ALH 5-speed
I don't recommend anyone with less than two hours try this, but I managed to remove the EGR assembly (the 6mm hex bolts tying in the cat-looking part were a pain to get back in), and there was a bunch of gunk restricting air flow around the throttle valve type valve. (I'm sure there's a better word for that out there)

There were photos posted on google but I have since deleted my account and migrated to a different email provider.

Needless to say, it was gunky and gross, and got oil residue all over my hands.

I finally got an acceptable amount cleared out (didn't get very far into the intake) and the road test revealed about a 2.5MPH increase in max speed on the sylvan hill (the 6.5% grade discussed prior), and one line up in RPM when flooring it in 3rd gear. It also started up easier.

In short, better, but still far from good.
 
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Nero Morg

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Joined
Oct 19, 2017
Location
OR
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2014 A6 TDI, 2001 Jetta TDI, 2014 Passat TDI
Oh jeez, that's what I was going to check tomorrow morning. We may plan on just swapping intakes with an already clean one. When they look like that, it's all the way down to the ports on the head. Not fun for cleaning.

A restricted intake like that will definitely cause overboost then limp home mode.
 

2004LB7

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 2, 2013
Location
California
TDI
2006 Jetta
Once again, copying a direct link to the photo on the forum will probably stop working with google in a few hours, so here are links to photos of the mess if anyone is interested.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Rg5BjFiaBcnkXSEnYOY9IVMBeUXpqDXp

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1A9rJhDG8FXKt5fLYWqdw8wd1PcyIILr7

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1WYuXfa1FbguUEDTRznKnVMkT5U96PzP0

to use links from google drive you need to use the sharing URL. the link you get from google is a revolving link that will only work for a short time.

this site will convert your links to the permanent link

https://sites.google.com/site/gdocs2direct/
 

Tdijarhead

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 10, 2013
Location
Lawrenceville PA
TDI
2003 TDI Jetta Daughters Car, 2001 TDI Beetle, Wife’s car, 2005 Golf TDI Mine, all 5 spds
Here’s the way I like to clean an intake. Make sure to remove the egr valve because it has a rubber diaphragm in the circle on top. Clean that by hand.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xIijYgvxW0g


The first time I did an intake it was really bad and I spent about 4 hours and it was one of the messiest jobs I’ve ever done. Now it takes about 20 minutes to clean an egr and 15 to do the intake. Do the intake first and it can cool down while you’re hand cleaning the egr.
 

TLH_TDI

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 25, 2003
Location
Florida
TDI
2002 Jetta Wagon
May need to check your your turbo actuator too. Connect a hand vacuum pump with gauge to it and look or feel that it moves smoothly, full travel at @ 18 inches of vacuum.
 

Nero Morg

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 19, 2017
Location
OR
TDI
2014 A6 TDI, 2001 Jetta TDI, 2014 Passat TDI
OK bit of a followup, for starters we checked the turbo actuator last time he was over, starts to move a bit prematurely, and does a full stop at about 16, could be adjusted, left it for now.

Pulled the intake and swapped it with one I already had cleaned sitting on the shelf. His was fairly restricted, about 3/8 thick of crud in the elbow. Did some fine tune cleaning on the EGR valve.

Then we went for a road test while I watched MAF data. At lower speeds seems to be fine, had him get on it, maf reading specified was 800, actual was about 510.

Handed him a spare MAF, he'll drop it in later, advised to save up and replace with a new Bosch one.

Intake ports on the head had a tiny amount of buildup. For a stock car we just let it be.
 

300k_logician

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Joined
Feb 24, 2018
Location
Kansas. The middle of nowhere.
TDI
2000 Jetta ALH 5-speed
So I placed the MAF in, and did the road test. Acceleration was much better, and I got up to 60MPH in 4th gear on the Sylvan Hill. It was still accelerating (very slowly) when I had to hit the brake right before exit 72 for the zoo when traffic slowed.


It sure would be good to check the MAF's functionality with the VAG-COM, and we'll get that later, but it definitely made a significant improvement.


Since I'm a bit of a nerd when it comes to highways, I'm going to point out that going up the sylvan, while almost never congested, traffic is pretty heavy at most daylight hours, so going much faster than everyone else is pretty darn impossible.
 

300k_logician

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Joined
Feb 24, 2018
Location
Kansas. The middle of nowhere.
TDI
2000 Jetta ALH 5-speed
I did a road test at 0230 hours when the roads where empty (I couldn't sleep.) The car held a steady 68 MPH (as the speedo goes, directly between 110 KM/H and 70 MPH) going up the hill in 5th with the pedal to the floor. Soon thereafter, the car threw the overboost code and the MIL / CEL turned on. It hadn't thrown the code in a while, so I'm taking it as a good sign.

The Resolution said:
The MAF gave quite an improvement.
But it still needed an actuator.

My parts supplier advised me that the actuator as a single part was discontinued. So I replaced the entire turbo.

The engine has not had overboost problems in the 60,000+ miles or 23 months since. I have driven it up the sylvan hill at 75mph easily, and across the continental divide in Colorado on I-70 without any dissatisfaction.

Now I live in Kansas and the challenge is passing people on two-lane highways. The car will get up to 100mph when passing a semi.
(Just for the record, I have my foot to the floor and do not let up until I am back on the correct side of the road. Passing on two lane highways is extremely dangerous if you do not have enough space and visibility. So be smart about it.)
 
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Nero Morg

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OR
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Steps in the right direction bud. Get a brand new Bosch maf in there and go from there.
 

cleaver

Veteran Member
Joined
May 8, 2006
Location
Berwick, Nova Scotia
TDI
None - did own '01 and '02 Jetta TDI
I replaced my MAF and VNT actuator and it fixed some power issues. Still went into Limp mode on my long hill, I had to feather the go pedal to keep it from going into limp mode.

Good luck...have you read the link in my signature...its a great step by step for this issue.
 

wonneber

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Location
Monroe, NY, USA
TDI
2014 Jetta Sportwagon,2003 Jetta 261K Sold but not forgotten
I replaced my MAF and VNT actuator and it fixed some power issues. Still went into Limp mode on my long hill, I had to feather the go pedal to keep it from going into limp mode.
Did you check if the arm going into the turbo was free and moving full range when you had the actuator off?
 

cleaver

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Joined
May 8, 2006
Location
Berwick, Nova Scotia
TDI
None - did own '01 and '02 Jetta TDI
...at that time I had someone else doing my TDI work. I "assumed" the local TDI guru would have advised me if there was issue. Sadly, he didn't say a thing and I didn't ask. Soon after, I realized that he wasn't that conscientious of TDI work and I moved on to a better mechanic.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
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Location
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'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
Keep in mind that if you've been driving this car for a while without boost it's going to take some time (and some hard driving) to get the turbo actuator working properly, even after you've fixed all the mechanical issues (which I don't think you have).

I recently had a leaking vacuum pump on my Wagon and identified it only because the exhaust was louder and I got a hard brake pedal one time. Even though the car appeared to be boosting fine, and I drive the car a lot at high speeds and long distances, it's taken about 1,000 miles of driving to get the turbo vanes to function normally. And that includes multiple runs to 90+ MPH.
 
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