Is this a reasonable idea for heating WVO?

ewithk

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Aug 25, 2021
Location
Toronto/Ontario, Canada
TDI
2002 ALH Golf (soon)
I would use a dual tank system and in the second tank after the engine has heated up I flick the switch and the WVO tank runs through metal fuel lines and wraps around the catalytic converter enough times to heat it past 170 Fahrenheit? Also when using a heating WVO system I know 170 F is the ideal temperature but is the upper range more forgiving? Like can I run it at 200F to 300F no problem? Reason being its a lot easier to just keep the temperature above a certain amount than within a certain amount but if there’s any problem with that let me know please. Thanks
 

DivineChaos

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Jul 27, 2019
Location
Minnesota
TDI
mk6 jetta sportwagen tdi
I would use a dual tank system and in the second tank after the engine has heated up I flick the switch and the WVO tank runs through metal fuel lines and wraps around the catalytic converter enough times to heat it past 170 Fahrenheit? Also when using a heating WVO system I know 170 F is the ideal temperature but is the upper range more forgiving? Like can I run it at 200F to 300F no problem? Reason being its a lot easier to just keep the temperature above a certain amount than within a certain amount but if there’s any problem with that let me know please. Thanks
If everything else in the fuel system is rated for that temperature, why not.
 

Lug_Nut

TDIClub Enthusiast, Pre-Forum Veteran Member
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Sterling, Massachusetts. USA
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idi: 1988 Bolens DGT1700H
The cat isn't thermally regulated, like a coolant/antifreeze circuit is.
The cat is intentionally shielded to keep its outermost layer below an ignition temperature of tall dry grass, so it's probably not going to heat a fuel line much.
And this was a problem with a two tank BIODIESEL (not WVO) setup I attempted: How do you get the storage tank up to temp so that that solid chunk of grease can flow to the dubious heat of the cat, and then, if you can manage to do that, how do you keep that small volume of fuel in a flowable state within a relatively larger mass of thermally conductive (heat losing) fuel pipe between your heated tank and your cat-in-a-blanket?
That was my problem: my unheated small diameter fuel lines gelled and kept liquid bio in my tank from reaching the heated fuel filter.

There's a reason hose-in-hose is predominant for WVO.
 

ewithk

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Aug 25, 2021
Location
Toronto/Ontario, Canada
TDI
2002 ALH Golf (soon)
The cat isn't thermally regulated, like a coolant/antifreeze circuit is.
The cat is intentionally shielded to keep its outermost layer below an ignition temperature of tall dry grass, so it's probably not going to heat a fuel line much.
And this was a problem with a two tank BIODIESEL (not WVO) setup I attempted: How do you get the storage tank up to temp so that that solid chunk of grease can flow to the dubious heat of the cat, and then, if you can manage to do that, how do you keep that small volume of fuel in a flowable state within a relatively larger mass of thermally conductive (heat losing) fuel pipe between your heated tank and your cat-in-a-blanket?
That was my problem: my unheated small diameter fuel lines gelled and kept liquid bio in my tank from reaching the heated fuel filter.

There's a reason hose-in-hose is predominant for WVO.
This diagram below might work if you remove the heat shield on the catalytic converter and replace with a hollow cylinder-shaped gas tank. By keeping the fuel lines along the exhaust manifold any gelling would be melted after around 5 minutes of running on diesel tank
 

DivineChaos

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Jul 27, 2019
Location
Minnesota
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mk6 jetta sportwagen tdi
This diagram below might work if you remove the heat shield on the catalytic converter and replace with a hollow cylinder-shaped gas tank. By keeping the fuel lines along the exhaust manifold any gelling would be melted after around 5 minutes of running on diesel tank
What he's saying is no amount of heating the fuel lines, will get the 10gal grease cube to thaw. That's why there's a heater in the tank.
 

philngrayce

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Oct 18, 2004
Location
Connecticut
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'02 Jetta, '06 Jetta, Both Gone '13 Leaf, Gone Liberty CRD, Subaru Forrester and MB300SD
I think the conventional coolant heated tank, lines and filter are a much better solution. They are well proven and known to do a good job of heating the oil to the right temperature, but not beyond. I suspect that the catalyst heated lines will rarely be at the right temperature. I don’t know that overheated fuel is a problem, but it certainly might be, and there is no advantage to it. When you shut down, the fuel in the line in contact with the catalytic converter may get very hot, perhaps even burning.

You will still have the problem of a cold fuel filter that has to be heated somehow before you switch to VO. I suppose you could include that in the portable tank, but that makes the problem below even worse.

I don’t think a removable fuel tank is a good idea. You are bound to have leaks, spills or drips inside the car and inside your house. The oil is pretty smelly, unappealing stuff. The trunk of your car is a much better place for it. Again, there is no real advantage to the removable tank, but lots of disadvantages.

I don’t mean to be discouraging and am certainly in favor of innovation. That said, I think you are expending time and energy in the wrong direction. Keep the ideas and questions coming.
 

philngrayce

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One other thing about hot fuel: There is supposedly a temperature sensor in the fuel system that retards the injection timing, or something similar. Some people install a resistor to fool the sensor, but this might not work if the fuel gets hot enough. I think you could see reduced performance if this is the case.

I ran my cars on WVO for years, and never did the temp sensor modification, nor did I see a problem with noticeably reduced performance, so I have no personal experience with this.
 

Nevada_TDI

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2001 Jetta TDI
Frank had told me the real the real problem were fatty acids were the biggest problem, and while I was looking for a solution I came across an article about a guy adding baking soda with heat and mixing the WVO for a few hours will neutralize the fatty acids.
I was done using WVO at that time so I never tried his solution.
 

philngrayce

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There was someone on here who always filtered his oil with baking soda, and had great success running newer (2006?) cars on WVO. I never used baking soda, but I also had really good, clean oil. I’ve often wondered if the range of success people had was attributable in part to the quality or type of oil they used.
 

rocky raccoon

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Wet Blanket Here:

Our cars have Diesel engines designed to run optimally on Diesel fuel. Although the older Diesel engines may have run happily on fuels other than Diesel they were still not at their best. A case in point I am intimately familiar with is a U.S. Navy patrol gunboat that was converted to a high speed research vessel. The boat had an LM1500 gas turbine engine and two cruising Diesels as well as a Diesel plant for housekeeping. All engines were designed to run on JP4 jet fuel.

Mainly for fuel availability purposes we converted to run on #2 Diesel instead of the JP. No need to go into the details of the conversion but let me say that the boat ran far better and faster on the Diesel fuel. The turbine was happy and the Diesel engines sort of sighed in relief.

My old Mercedes W123 could probably burn peanut butter if asked to but ....
Modern Diesel engines such as our choked down later VWs are highly selective in fuel choice. For lifetime and maintenance minimization I would not use any other fuel than low-sulfur Diesel.

Rant Over.
 

philngrayce

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Everything Rocky said is true. If peak performance and maximum longevity are your only goals, diesel fuel is the way to go.

But there are other major factors that might matter to some: cost, maybe emissions and probably carbon footprint come to mind first. If one is looking to tinker in a fairly radical direction, if one wants an interesting hobby that might even save money (how many hobbies actually save you money?), or if, like me originally, one just has to know if you can really run a car on used french fry oil, then WVO might be worth looking into. Some of your friends will be amazed, some will think it’s disgusting, and some will think you are ruining your car. They might all be right. And you might make a few new friends along the way.
 

[486]

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 1, 2014
Location
MN
TDI
02 golf ALH
Wet Blanket Here:

Our cars have Diesel engines designed to run optimally on Diesel fuel. Although the older Diesel engines may have run happily on fuels other than Diesel they were still not at their best. A case in point I am intimately familiar with is a U.S. Navy patrol gunboat that was converted to a high speed research vessel. The boat had an LM1500 gas turbine engine and two cruising Diesels as well as a Diesel plant for housekeeping. All engines were designed to run on JP4 jet fuel.

Mainly for fuel availability purposes we converted to run on #2 Diesel instead of the JP. No need to go into the details of the conversion but let me say that the boat ran far better and faster on the Diesel fuel. The turbine was happy and the Diesel engines sort of sighed in relief.

My old Mercedes W123 could probably burn peanut butter if asked to but ....
Modern Diesel engines such as our choked down later VWs are highly selective in fuel choice. For lifetime and maintenance minimization I would not use any other fuel than low-sulfur Diesel.

Rant Over.
Wet Blanket Here:

Our cars have Cheap engines designed to run optimally on Cheap fuel. Although newer Diesel engines may have issues when run on fuels other than Cheap, they still have more problems from associated emissions systems than the hard parts themselves.
...
Rant Over.

I can replace my entire HP fuel system with brand new parts for the cost of less than 300 gallons of diesel. That's at $3/gallon.
Heck, use any failures in the fancier CR engines as an easy excuse to grab a pickup truck CP3 and some much more reasonably sized nozzles.
 

[486]

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 1, 2014
Location
MN
TDI
02 golf ALH
I would use a dual tank system and in the second tank after the engine has heated up I flick the switch and the WVO tank runs through metal fuel lines and wraps around the catalytic converter enough times to heat it past 170 Fahrenheit? Also when using a heating WVO system I know 170 F is the ideal temperature but is the upper range more forgiving? Like can I run it at 200F to 300F no problem? Reason being its a lot easier to just keep the temperature above a certain amount than within a certain amount but if there’s any problem with that let me know please. Thanks
it'll coke up pretty badly
just use coolant heat like everyone else does

I prefer just thinning the waste oil out with gasoline because it works good enough without any changes to the car other than software, but you do you.
 

tdihopeful

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Joined
Oct 23, 2008
Location
California
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03 2dr 5sp Golf
[486] if I acquire WVO and filter it well then cut with gasoline I can then add that straight to my ALH (with a chip tune) or were you referring to another engine model (2006+)?
 

tdihopeful

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Joined
Oct 23, 2008
Location
California
TDI
03 2dr 5sp Golf
If yes what parameters in the ECU need modified and what would a good gasoline to WVO ratio? I could imagine that going this route would be a little easier than converting the WVO to Bio no?
 

ewithk

Member
Joined
Aug 25, 2021
Location
Toronto/Ontario, Canada
TDI
2002 ALH Golf (soon)
If yes what parameters in the ECU need modified and what would a good gasoline to WVO ratio? I could imagine that going this route would be a little easier than converting the WVO to Bio no?
I'm also very curious about this.
I heard 20% gasoline is a good number.
BTW I think mixing the gasoline with the dirty oil prior to settling would make the settling process much faster and more effective since the mixture would be thinner and will allow the dirt and water to sink faster
 

J_dude

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Jan 9, 2020
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SK Canada
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2003 1.9l “Jedi”
So, I don’t know much about this but just throwing it out there, I have several friends who run wvo, one of them uses a heated tank and all that, but one guy likes to mix gas in like was mentioned (not sure the ratio).
Anyway I’d just like to mention he seems to be rebuilding his motor home and truck’s engines, umm, rather often.. not sure if it’s the gas mix that’s doing it or what but it seems weird to me
 

atc98002

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Nov 24, 2006
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Auburn WA
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2014 Passat TDI SEL Premium (sold back), 2009 Jetta (sold back), 80 Rabbit diesel (long gone)
I think mixing the gasoline with the dirty oil prior to settling would make the settling process much faster and more effective
But you also now have a mixture that's more volatile. The gas is going to evaporate from the mixture, unless it's within a capped container, and that could reach dangerous proportions if not safely dispersed. Just trying to consider the possibilities.
 

tdihopeful

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California
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03 2dr 5sp Golf
I asked because diesel was at $6.00 a gallon here. Dropped .50 in the last couple days. It was only a little above 4.00 a year ago. While a strong consideration, a stronger consideration is not damaging my only running car.
 

[486]

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 1, 2014
Location
MN
TDI
02 golf ALH
If yes what parameters in the ECU need modified and what would a good gasoline to WVO ratio? I could imagine that going this route would be a little easier than converting the WVO to Bio no?
I really don't touch veg oil, this is all engine oil and transmission fluid that I'm messing with, sorry for being rather off topic.

Something I run into doing it my way with minimal fuel thinning, using gasoline, is that the fuel burn is so poor that I find myself gaining a quart or two every thousand miles of crankcase oil.

The smoke isn't as bad as you'd imagine, burning oil at a rate of 40 miles/gal, but it is still a very embarrassing level of smoke when at low load and slow enough that it isn't dispersed. Can't really tell too much at 55+, but I'll shut it off at stop lights.

Point is, this is all percolating past the piston rings. If it were vegetable oil rather than engine oil it'd surely have stuck the rings by now. Others seem to have good luck running veg oil for a long while, it may well just have that much significantly better cetane rating, or they might have better injectors than my big ol' sloppy ones.

The main thing in the ECU is increasing the smoke maps to where it'll idle and run with reasonable power on the poorly burning fuel. Bumping the injection timing maps up a bunch in the lower range seems to help, too.

I've been looking more into getting some 1.9 IDI pistons to try glomming together a tdidi sorta deal, figuring it'll help with fuel burn, but that's a project that's years stalled. Also been thinking on some tiny nozzles from an automatic ALH to see what they do, but again, been thinking about that for years with no real action.
 
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