Is the Intercooler TSB working?

[ss~zoso~ss]

Simple question, hard to tell by digging through 4,000+ posts.

The dealer told me that I could have the upgrade done at no cost, this was after bringing in my car because it was having rough idle / start ups. One start the car even stalled after a brief rough idle at 800 rpm.

They said they found some moisture in the intercooler but no visible pooling of water or ice.

I am on the fence as it is a 3 hour install and they have to 'touch' a lot of things to do the repair, and I'm worried about them causing other issues or if the kit even works...

Thoughts?

 

[Samcar222]

Most people, myself included say that the kit is a band aid to the problem, albeit a decent band aid. It has helped my JSW through a few incidents which I believe would have led to stalling if I did not have the kit. Mine is the 0*c revision; if you get a kit installed now it would be the 10*c kit, which activates the internal flap (reduces the surface area of the intercooler core) at that higher temp (~50*f) rather than 32*f. If they are offering it for free, I'd jump all over it. Certainly can't hurt. PS make sure you insist that it is the latest 10*c revision.

 

[ss~zoso~ss]

ok, good to hear you had success with it. I saw some of your posts on vwvortex

so the vacuum valve is controlled by the ECU which is based on temperature and actuates a moving part inside the intercooler which blocks off a portion of the internal volume?

 

[RES]

Simple question, hard to tell by digging through 4,000+ posts.

The dealer told me that I could have the upgrade done at no cost, this was after bringing in my car because it was having rough idle / start ups. One start the car even stalled after a brief rough idle at 800 rpm.

They said they found some moisture in the intercooler but no visible pooling of water or ice.

I am on the fence as it is a 3 hour install and they have to 'touch' a lot of things to do the repair, and I'm worried about them causing other issues or if the kit even works...

Thoughts?

There may be a slight downside to having the kit installed. From reading other posts it may not be 100% effective. Also, when the flap actuates to bypass part of the intercooler, engine efficiency may be affected. Some people are complaining about decreased gas mileage at lower temperatures when the flap is actuated.

 

[roostre]

..... I am on the fence as it is a 3 hour install and they have to 'touch' a lot of things to do the repair, and I'm worried about them causing other issues or if the kit even works .....

I faced the same dilemma and chose to have the TSB's modified intercooler installed.

..... so the vacuum valve is controlled by the ECU which is based on temperature and actuates a moving part inside the intercooler which blocks off a portion of the internal volume?

My guess is that it's operation is much simpler than having the ECU involved and only relies on an added thermostatic valve to apply vacuum below a certain temperature to actuate a flap which closes off a portion of the modified intercooler.

EDIT, my intercooler icing experience:
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=4394152&postcount=4036

 

[ss~zoso~ss]

how did the mod work out for you, did you notice any decreased fuel economy?

 

[roostre]

Too soon to tell if the fuel economy has changed. I can't tell any difference at this point in either drivability or fuel economy, but the charge air flow has been modified so it is possible. I'll know better in a year from now. Before the TSB my best tank was 45 MPG in the summer and my worst tank was 36 MPG in the winter. I have the DSG transmission and do very little city driving.

I don't believe the TSB eliminates the intercooler icing issue completely, but I have no regrets and are thankful it was covered under warranty and that the VW technician who worked on my vehicle was thorough and proficient. I don't worry about driving in colder temperatures anymore but will definitely report any future issues to this forum.

I trust this forum member's opinion on the modified intercooler's effectiveness:
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=4379642&postcount=21

 

[Samcar222]

I haven't seen any decrease in FE, we drove the car in 32*f to 35*f temps on the highway for three hours (erie pa to rochester ny) a few weeks ago, and got 42mpg which is bang on for winter with our car. This was with the lower IC grille unblocked - I run a grille block around 35*f and under, search for idparts grille block, or make your own out of foam pipe insulation, helps heat the car up and *helps* prevent icing.

Here is a nice diagram courtesy of RES. http://pics.tdiclub.com/data/500/Intercooler10.jpg

 

[Matt927]

I just had this installed last week as well. Have not noticed any decrease in FE, but the time span has been to little to notice any change. Temps this week are frigid as well.

If the flap were to fail in the closed position, would cause a check engine light/code?

 

[SkeeterMark]

I have the newer version and it is working very well (installed in November). No hiccups or bumpy starts, which were not uncommon before the upgrade. Though I didn't realize all those little skips and misses were IC icing related at the time, I now realize it was affecting me more than I thought.

Hard to say on FE, since this winter has been way colder than last year, my only other winter with the car. It seems normal, and normally low when it's cold.

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

In Delaware I wouldn't do it. First, it doesn't seem to consistently work, but more important I wouldn't want some tech pulling my TDI apart trying to beat his flat rate hours allocation. If I could get the parts from the dealer and have a guru install it I'd consider it.

Better bet IMO is to cover the grill in cold weather to increase IATs. Same result, it seems, and doesn't require pulling your car apart or change FE or warm weather operation.

 

[SkeeterMark]

Ok, pulled up my spreadsheet to check on the FE comparison (and yes, I keep track of the average temperatures recorded for the days I drive on each tank):

Last winter, before the IC update.
At avg. temp below 10*F = 38.2 mpg (1 occurrence)
At avg. temp 10*-20*F = 41.3 mpg (8 occurrences)
41.0 mpg for winter months with avg. temps below 20*F

This winter, post IC update:
At avg. temp below 10*F = 41.2 mpg (7 occurrences)
At avg. temp 10*-20*F = 44.2 mpg (2 occurrences)
41.9 mpg for winter months with avg. temps below 20*F

Not conclusive with the sample quantities, but I sure did not get worse FE since the update. Comparing the two years, both with 9 samples, you can see it has been much colder overall this winter here (no surprise to anyone there, I'm sure), yet the overall mpg is slightly higher.

Anyway, there's some real data, for what it's worth. Which is more than people just saying "I think I'm getting worse FE".

note: the graph also has what my MFD reports to compare to actual calculated MPG. I notice it seems to be more accurate in colder weather, and far more "optimistic" in warmer temps.

 

[Cooper]

I had it done. No issues since.

Even got a new starter out of it since the guy that VW Roadside Assistance wouldn't listen to me and just tow the car to VW. He wouldn't stop trying to start the engine, and he burned out the starter.

 

[02PSDV8]

All fixed

I had mine upgraded about 2 weeks ago. Finally no sloppy or failed starts, car seems to run great. I'm happy VW came out with a fix as I was ready to trade up to something else.

 

[KraftwerkB6]

yea ive read a couple of the posts in the larger thread about all the coolers. But recently ive seen a lot more coming in with stalling conditions per it being colder then normal where we are(ky) and then warm up a day or 2 and then drop down again.
I will say in the past month we have had at least 10 vehicles come in with no starts or hard starts that the cooler pipes are full of water or frozen solid, pretty scray stuff.
If your getting it for free, id do it, theres no sense not to if its free, and who knows it may happen to you eventually or more often. Plus find a dealer you like, or a tech you like and have them do it if your worried about them F-ing some thing up.

On a side note, my brother drives a stock golf tdi, had a couple no start conditions parking in the garage then again at work in an open parking garage. I checked his pass side cooler tube on monday and it was full of water and oil mix. Ordered the kit and installed on tues. Seems so far everything is fine + the other 5 vehicles ive installed them on havnt had any issues.
IDK if its been posted in that massive cooler thread or not, but I have the S3 cooler(had it for a long time now) and took my pipes off to check them, not a single sign of water or oil mixture, *knock on wood* no hard starts etiher. Not sure if thats the cooler, or being tuned or what but so far ok this winter.

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

I still maintain that a lot of whether or not you have a problem is driving style. It seems that folks who baby the cars for maximum FE have more difficulty.

 

[MontrealTDI]

Yep, all the reputable independent VW garages/tune shops around here say you should drive it like you stole it. Get your FE on the highway where it is at home.

 

[ticketed2much]

IDK if its been posted in that massive cooler thread or not, but I have the S3 cooler(had it for a long time now) and took my pipes off to check them, not a single sign of water or oil mixture, *knock on wood* no hard starts etiher. Not sure if thats the cooler, or being tuned or what but so far ok this winter.

What tune do you have? I was thinking a tune would move more air through the pipes and reduce the chances of blockage. Do you have the EGR delete?

 

[wannaBeSwifter]

My 2012 JSW has 25K miles and I've never had a hard start.
With that as background, some questions on the IC issue and the TSB.

1-Does the TSB cover vehicles that have not experienced the problem or do
I have to report a problem to get the fix?

2-I live in Colorado where temps below 32 are very common, but
it's also a very dry. Is this problem less likely to occur here?
Of course road trips are why we have TDIs.
Should I have this done anyway?

3-The TSB says models from 2010-2014. If the first TSB came out in 2011, why do newer cars still require this change?

 

[Softrockrenegade]

Strange that the Eco boost ford engines have a condensation problem in warm weather and vw has it in cold weather. We are not alone though.

 

[steve05ram360]

Ok, pulled up my spreadsheet to check on the FE comparison (and yes, I keep track of the average temperatures recorded for the days I drive on each tank):

Last winter, before the IC update.
At avg. temp below 10*F = 38.2 mpg (1 occurrence)
At avg. temp 10*-20*F = 41.3 mpg (8 occurrences)
41.0 mpg for winter months with avg. temps below 20*F

This winter, post IC update:
At avg. temp below 10*F = 41.2 mpg (7 occurrences)
At avg. temp 10*-20*F = 44.2 mpg (2 occurrences)
41.9 mpg for winter months with avg. temps below 20*F

Not conclusive with the sample quantities, but I sure did not get worse FE since the update. Comparing the two years, both with 9 samples, you can see it has been much colder overall this winter here (no surprise to anyone there, I'm sure), yet the overall mpg is slightly higher.

Anyway, there's some real data, for what it's worth. Which is more than people just saying "I think I'm getting worse FE".

note: the graph also has what my MFD reports to compare to actual calculated MPG. I notice it seems to be more accurate in colder weather, and far more "optimistic" in warmer temps.

FE goes up with IATs approaching 80~90*f... I watched mine go from low 40's to mid-upper 40's by blocking the lower grille and blocking the air inlet from the front grille. Ambients here are no where near what you guys see, lows in the low-mid 30's with highs lately in the upper 60's up to 70~71...

I did some testing with my ram on this and observed a 4 mpg increase while having the front grilles blocked and added 3" hoses to allow the air box to draw warmer air in from around the turbo. Saw a 20*f increase in IATs (60~70*f's) with all the blocks & hoses in place, removed them all after a 115 mi freeway test run and saw a 4 mpg drop.

 

[ChanLewis]

I can definitely attest to a significant drop in FE. I had the 10 degree IC kit installed two weeks ago. Prior to the install, I averaged (in the winter) between 38 mpg and 40 mpg (30 mile highway commute at a steady 65 mph). Temperature made a difference -- getting it going in 6-20 degree mornings I'd be near 38 mpg; above 20 and I could eek out 40.

Now I cannot get over 33 mpg. I'm no hypermiler (especially now that I'm conscious of keeping the rpms >2K), but I drove it hard before, too. Even driving it hard, I used to get 40 no problem.

On the bright side, my engine has not hydrolocked yet.

 

[Dozenspeed]

Ok, pulled up my spreadsheet to check on the FE comparison (and yes, I keep track of the average temperatures recorded for the days I drive on each tank):

Last winter, before the IC update.
At avg. temp below 10*F = 38.2 mpg (1 occurrence)
At avg. temp 10*-20*F = 41.3 mpg (8 occurrences)
41.0 mpg for winter months with avg. temps below 20*F

This winter, post IC update:
At avg. temp below 10*F = 41.2 mpg (7 occurrences)
At avg. temp 10*-20*F = 44.2 mpg (2 occurrences)
41.9 mpg for winter months with avg. temps below 20*F

Not conclusive with the sample quantities, but I sure ............ to be more accurate in colder weather, and far more "optimistic" in warmer temps.

You are SUCH a nerd!

 

[mac5155]

Strange that the Eco boost ford engines have a condensation problem in warm weather and vw has it in cold weather. We are not alone though.

Sister's bf had milky oil at 22k miles in his. My other ride is actually a 5.0 F150. one amazing fuel economy (TDI) and one horrid. lol

 

[PlaneCrazy]

I still maintain that a lot of whether or not you have a problem is driving style. It seems that folks who baby the cars for maximum FE have more difficulty.

Maybe, maybe not. As reported on the 4000+ post thread, my wife's 2013 without the TSB works just fine, never a hiccup through nearly 2 winters so far, no matter who drives it (and we both drive with similar styles, efficiency-oriented). On the other hand my 2011 has the kit and still has issues, again no matter who drives it. At the last service interval in December, nearly 2 years after the problem was first reported and about 22 months after the kit was installed, the IC hose was choked with ice. The latest remedy was to pull the snorkel from the grille to the air box so that the intake are comes from the engine compartment.

So to answer the OP, no, the kit doesn't seem to do poop for me.

Moreover when they installed the kit on the 2011, they forgot a clip for a rad hose and a couple of months later the fan chewed through the rad hose, leaving me stranded. I was not a happy camper.

 

[ss~zoso~ss]

Update for you all:

So the dealer found some of the yellowish sludge in the hose, but not much it wasn't enough to spill or drain out of the hose. I regret not asking to see it, but they seemed really open to doing the TSB. The manager said however, that they wanted to be absolutely sure it was needed because it's a time consuming and costly job, which I agree with.

Long story short, they said if the problem gets worse and I have any other starting issues to come in and they'll do it. I've only been having a few rough bumps during initial start up, and subsequent starts are perfectly normal.

This was a good compromise for me because of the mixed reviews I've heard about the upgraded IC and the extensive process to install it. I think I can get by via blocking off the IC with a grille cover.

WHAT I THINK HAPPENED
I believe that I had a decent amount of moisture condensed in the IC. Instead of taking it to the dealer at the first rough start I drove it for a week because it was not bad enough to make me too concerned. In the mean time I think that some of that water / egr sludge solution got on one of the sensors (cant remember its name) downstream towards the engine intake. This sensor controls airflow (said the TDI tech) and is maybe be a bit slow processing the start up conditions due to being dirty. Which may explain why a subsequent start 1 minute later, is normal.

Thoughts?

 

[B25guy]

Had mine installed in Texas back in June 2011 after locking up earlier in February and have since spent two winters now in central Washington...not even a hint of icing and any ice would thaw every night in the garage if i had any. Spend lots of high-speed on the highway across the state as well as in-town 35mph...so far, so good. Mileage hasn't seemed to be measurably affected from pre/post IC fix.

 

[fdizz]

Anybody have the TSB handy? Thanks.

 

[ctmoore79]

Here is were you will get all the info you need.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=302863

I found it very helpful.
Happy reading.

 

[fdizz]

Yeah, the link to the updated tsb doesn't work.