Is my SMF eating transmissions?

[ksmoker]

Pretty much just that.

I'm running a complete Southbend setup with their SMF. Last summer, on the front end of a long trip, third gear syncro gave up the ghost. I drove gingerly for the whole trip (5k-ish miles) and by the end of that trip, the trans was a complete disaster. At times, it would get stuck in gear to the point where it felt like I was bending things (I guess I probably was) to pull it back into neutral, other times I couldn't get it into reverse. It almost seemed like something was bound up in the differential, as at the times I couldn't find reverse, if I coasted forward and turned one way or the other, then I could get it in reverse. That trans was the euro variety (I forget the code), and I chalked it up to being spent, and bought a DVZ on ebay so I could get it back on the road quickly.

15k miles later, we're back in the EXACT same spot. Third gear syncro went out; I've been babying it but still driving, and now all of the exact same symptoms are coming up. It's strange to me, because I've never experienced these issues with a transmission, and now it's happening twice in a matter of 20k miles.

So two questions:

1. How do I determine what is causing this? I like the car overall and would like to keep it. It has some upgrades, and I did the timing belt service last year before that big trip.

2. Anyone have any good links for how-to's on working on the internals of these transmissions? I still have the euro trans in my garage, and was saving that rebuild for a rainy day. Looks like that day has come.

 

[PickleRick]

What's the weight of your smf flywheel? I ran a stock valeo smf from a 1.8t Passat matched to my dvz from 2019 until earlier this year (2022) over 80,000 miles with no issues. I run mostly city traffic and while I don't abuse my daily driver commuter I certainly don't baby her.


If you're running a sub 18 lbs flywheel that's likely your issue. Many here have fun the 1.8t stock steel flywheel and the only downfall is the 228mm clutch will eventually begin to slip(I had south bend do the endurance treatment to the stock valeo clutch).

I now run the Whitbread south bend 240 mm set up with organic disk. It's been terrific for about 6000/7000 miles or so so far. I originally used his set up back in 2018/2019 but the clutch masters clutch that supplied Matt's set up at the time was both awfull to break in and died a short sub 20,000 mile death.

My dvz came from a 98 v6 Passat that ate a timing chain around 98,xxx miles. I installed the transmission in my Passat @190,xxx miles and I'm now at 27x,xxx miles

 

[ksmoker]

What's the weight of your smf flywheel?
If you're running a sub 18 lbs flywheel that's likely your issue.

Google search says 17 lbs

 

[Mozambiquer]

What's the weight of your smf flywheel? I ran a stock valeo smf from a 1.8t Passat matched to my dvz from 2019 until earlier this year (2022) over 80,000 miles with no issues. I run mostly city traffic and while I don't abuse my daily driver commuter I certainly don't baby her.


If you're running a sub 18 lbs flywheel that's likely your issue. Many here have fun the 1.8t stock steel flywheel and the only downfall is the 228mm clutch will eventually begin to slip(I had south bend do the endurance treatment to the stock valeo clutch).

I now run the Whitbread south bend 240 mm set up with organic disk. It's been terrific for about 6000/7000 miles or so so far. I originally used his set up back in 2018/2019 but the clutch masters clutch that supplied Matt's set up at the time was both awfull to break in and died a short sub 20,000 mile death.

My dvz came from a 98 v6 Passat that ate a timing chain around 98,xxx miles. I installed the transmission in my Passat @190,xxx miles and I'm now at 27x,xxx miles

I'm curious about how you like the dvz transmission in the tdi passat? I'm getting a free 2000 v6 manual passat that I am thinking of using for the manual swap on my passat which has a bad auto transmission.

 

[A4QTDI]

MANUAL TRANS OVERHAUL - TYPE 012 Article Text | Manualzz

These transaxles do not fail with any single mass. I have seen one run many thousand km with aluminum flywheel. I have seen truck driver try to rev match (no clutch) and wreck trans in one week...

 

[Windex]

MANUAL TRANS OVERHAUL - TYPE 012 Article Text | Manualzz

These transaxles do not fail with any single mass. I have seen one run many thousand km with aluminum flywheel. I have seen truck driver try to rev match (no clutch) and wreck trans in one week...

There have been many threads on this issue? Light SMFs coupled to the bhw 4 cyl diesel eat synchro rings...

 

[A4QTDI]

There have been many threads on this issue? Light SMFs coupled to the bhw 4 cyl diesel eat synchro rings...

6spd yes, 5spd no. I have 60000km on 14lb smf on 5spd 01A. Same as 012 but quattro. It have terrible resonance/vibration below 2000rpm, but no broken parts.

 

[ksmoker]

Interesting that opinions vary on this. So if the SMF isn't my issue... what is? My experiences with these two transmissions are too specific and similar for it to be just bad luck.

 

[d24tdi]

I think your light SMF is indeed the issue, or maybe that combined with an aggressive clutch. My 2004 Passat had the identical failure on a Euro GGB (same as FHN trans). Lost 3rd gear synchro. I bought it that way. It did run around 100k miles before failure with this 228mm SMF (spec is for a 1.8T) in the PO's long highway use. Not sure what the clutch is but it's some kind of extreme grabby racing unit that is terrible to drive, installed by a tuner in CO.

I bought it in CO with the trans already broken, drove it back to MT 1000 miles without 3rd gear and made it back without incident, but soon after arrival it began similar issues to what you describe -- sticking in gear, sometimes reverse unavailable, occasional terrible crunching noises from the diff.... then finally one day there was a big crunch and lurch and it blew a big hole in the bottom of the transaxle. Once those busted pieces are floating around in there they eventually find their way to a bad place. Guessing a piece of synchro got caught between the ring gear and the case on mine. In hindsight it is not wise to drive these after a synchro fails for this reason -- could have caused a bad wreck if it locked up the diff going down the road.

For fixing mine -- After much deliberation and research I chose to go with Matt Whitbread's custom 30lb SMF and Southbend kit. Parts are due to arrive this week and will be installed with a replacement DUK trans I sourced from QGAP in CA. He has those in stock and ready to ship FWIW.

I think the light SMF setup can cause trouble even on 012/01A not just 01X/E, though it is a matter of debate, there are enough stories out there of failures to suspect it. Ideally a DMF is probably the answer but for various reasons (spacer, US parts availability, pilot engagement, starter, etc) I don't like the risk/reward on going that way. Hoping the heavy SMF accomplishes the same outcome and has reasonable refinement. I don't think I have seen anyone who is unhappy with the Whitbread flywheel or has reported a transmission failure -- a few folks had trouble with the Clutchmasters clutches before he switched to Southbend but no other problems AFAIK. Looking forward to seeing how it goes, jury will be out for a while yet.

 

[d24tdi]

Interesting that opinions vary on this. So if the SMF isn't my issue... what is? My experiences with these two transmissions are too specific and similar for it to be just bad luck.

Yeah. Add my third, completely identical failure to your list and it is an obvious pattern. Third gear synchro ring appears to be the most vulnerable part to whatever harmonics are transmitted by the diesel vibes through the light SMF.

Not that the failure happens in every case, some folks seem to run this combo with success, but it is clearly a failure mode that seems to have an elevated chance of being provoked when the light SMF is chosen.

 

[ksmoker]

Thanks for the help. Now the question becomes: fix it, sell it as-is, or part it out? I've been liquidating projects lately in an effort to de-clutter my life. It's always something...

 

[A4QTDI]

This seems strange. I had 2 passat manual swaps. Both with valeo 1.8t smf kit. GF and I drove both over 200000km and sold them with close to 400k on each. This was 3-4 years ago. I still see them on the road all the time (small town) and a local shop that i know well services them, no trans problems.

 

[ksmoker]

Maybe the problem is the more aggressive disc with the SMF? This car had the valeo kit when I bought it, but it now has a Colt stage 3 cam and tune to match. I was advised that the valeo kit wouldn't stand up to it.

 

[A4QTDI]

Valeo kit won't stand much more than 50mg/stroke tune. I reduce torque in tune around 2000rpm to help with slip. In my B6 with 01A I use billet 240mm flywheel, almost like whitbread but lighter (I don't know how he fit 30lbs in there), with B7 S4 plate and disc. No slip at 70mg/str but bad driveline vibration below 2000rpm.

 

[PickleRick]

I'm curious about how you like the dvz transmission in the tdi passat? I'm getting a free 2000 v6 manual passat that I am thinking of using for the manual swap on my passat which has a bad auto transmission.

It's worked for me as a dedicated daily driver since 2018. Most of my commute is city traffic but due to the mpg factor, if I'm going on a road trip and done need the SUV it's our go to. Whether it quick trip to Gatlinburg or Charleston I set the speedo at 75 @3000 rpms and net 40 plus mpgs. I average 400-500 or so miles a week.

If I lived in the metro Atlanta area where you need to do 90mph or get run off the road I wouldn't like it but for my needs the $$$ spent on the Euro trans to drop 300 rpm in each gear is better used elsewhere. I continually net 35 plus mpgs around town. Was closer to 37 untill I set my torsion at +1.5 on my last timing belt change, been too lazy to set it back to-2.0

 

[Mozambiquer]

It's worked for me as a dedicated daily driver since 2018. Most of my commute is city traffic but due to the mpg factor, if I'm going on a road trip and done need the SUV it's our go to. Whether it quick trip to Gatlinburg or Charleston I set the speedo at 75 @3000 rpms and net 40 plus mpgs. I average 400-500 or so miles a week.

If I lived in the metro Atlanta area where you need to do 90mph or get run off the road I wouldn't like it but for my needs the $$$ spent on the Euro trans to drop 300 rpm in each gear is better used elsewhere. I continually net 35 plus mpgs around town. Was closer to 37 untill I set my torsion at +1.5 on my last timing belt change, been too lazy to set it back to-2.0

Ok, sounds like it'll be about what the auto transmission gets, and maybe a little better... I think I'll put the dvz in and if nothing else, later on I can get a tdi transmission and most of the work will have been done already.

 

[PickleRick]

The slush box ran lower rpms, by how much I cannot tell you as I hadn't ran it since 2018.... before the penguins were too old to get past the first round of playoffs...the good ole days.

 

[ksmoker]

I'm curious about how you like the dvz transmission in the tdi passat? I'm getting a free 2000 v6 manual passat that I am thinking of using for the manual swap on my passat which has a bad auto transmission.

I miss my FHN, but the DVZ is fine. On our trip out west with the FHN, I found it ran just over 3k rpm @100mph. With the DVZ, 3k is more like 80mph.

 

[ksmoker]

Thinking through this a little more... My car was tuned by the PO, but he couldn't remember who did it. I've never been real impressed by the drivability. A less than great tune could lead to increased vibes, eh?

 

[Mozambiquer]

Thinking through this a little more... My car was tuned by the PO, but he couldn't remember who did it. I've never been real impressed by the drivability. A less than great tune could lead to increased vibes, eh?

I wonder if it makes a difference if it has the geared bsm or the bsm delete...

 

[d24tdi]

No slip at 70mg/str but bad driveline vibration below 2000rpm.

That kind of vibration is what I am concerned about and hoping to not encounter with the Whitbread setup. Hopefully the heavier FW will help and it seems like drivetrain NVH issues with SMF are usually much worse on the quattro cars than on the FWD setups. Yours that vibrates is a quattro right?

I wonder if it makes a difference if it has the geared bsm or the bsm delete...

Interesting question. For whatever it's worth, my car has had the geared BSM for the entire time it had the SMF, so that apparently didn't help it. Although as mentioned, it did successfully put on around 100k miles before the trans failed, so it was not like an instant destruction. Maybe the BSM being there did help with that to at least delay the failure, if nothing else just adding a little more rotating mass intertia and flywheel effect to the motor, regardless of whether the counterweighting matters. And, the trans that broke no doubt already had plenty of miles on it when it went in plus the 100k+ that was added, so can't rule out just old stuff failing with age and miles, always possible it had nothing to do with the flywheel choice that has worked fine for many others.

Still though, the specific 3rd gear synchro failure mode combined with the presence of a 228mm 1.8T spec SMF seems too identical to ignore.

 

[d24tdi]

Maybe the problem is the more aggressive disc with the SMF? This car had the valeo kit when I bought it, but it now has a Colt stage 3 cam and tune to match. I was advised that the valeo kit wouldn't stand up to it.

That could be. Mine has a very aggressive hair trigger engagement so it would support that theory of contributing to failure of the trans. Completely miserable as a daily driver, I can't believe the PO lived with it for 100k. Anyway I assume the discs built with high capacity linings probably also have heavier rate springs that don't dampen torsional impulses as much (or maybe contribute to some kind of different/destructive frequency harmonic).

 

[A4QTDI]

That kind of vibration is what I am concerned about and hoping to not encounter with the Whitbread setup. Hopefully the heavier FW will help and it seems like drivetrain NVH issues with SMF are usually much worse on the quattro cars than on the FWD setups. Yours that vibrates is a quattro right?

Yes, vibrating car is quattro B6 A4. Vibration is mostly from rear diff shaking in mounts. I will replace mounts some day or maybe add some weight to diff to lower frequency. Passat FWD manuals do not have much vibration with SMF.

I have also 2 B7 quattro BHW swaps, they have 02X 6 speed, 2.0TFSI dual mass flywheel and same S4 4.2 V8 clutch with spacers under pressure plate. They are totally smooth. None of the cars has balance shaft, just ALH pump. B6 has fluidamper, it does nothing for vibration.