Is 200hp fast?

burpod

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82 rabbit vnt ahu, 98 jetta vnt ahu, 05 parts car, 88 scirocco.. :/
if i were rich and wanted a new car, i would want an audi a7 tdi hatchback... omg.. beautiful car. but working on it would be another thing. i'll take my mk1 ahu swap any day if i had to :)
 

FlyTDI Guy

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What about better gearing and more RPM?? I would think that if you changed your final drive gearing and or full gear set along with more RPM's these little oil burners could be better contenders.
There was a thread a few years ago where a vendor was trying to piece together a custom geared 6sp. It never really came to reality. Too bad because for those with hopped up TDI's, different ratios could be a real playground.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=266693
 

_Christ

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Sweet. Ive tried to keep up with the UK/EURO diesel scene some, but its hard... we don't get half the awesome that you guys have.
 

Spike_africa

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Defiantly not fast. It will feel fun and make it more fun to drive around. But it's not fast. To be honest tossing more then a tune and a water/meth kit or something on these cars is a waste of time if you want to be fast. You can't get great mpg and be fast. For the amount of money it takes to do a big turbo,injectors,tune, turbo back, and you get what 250whp? Not worth it if you want to be fast. But tossing a tune and maybe something else onto your daily driver to make it more fun, totally worth it.

My other car stock 02 GT Mustang, made 232rwhp stock. With basic bolt on's and a tune it made 270rwhp. It has a 150hp shot of nitrous on it. On the bottle it makes 411rwhp and 534ftlbs. That is fast.
 

loudspl

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Defiantly not fast. It will feel fun and make it more fun to drive around. But it's not fast. To be honest tossing more then a tune and a water/meth kit or something on these cars is a waste of time if you want to be fast. You can't get great mpg and be fast. For the amount of money it takes to do a big turbo,injectors,tune, turbo back, and you get what 250whp? Not worth it if you want to be fast. But tossing a tune and maybe something else onto your daily driver to make it more fun, totally worth it.

My other car stock 02 GT Mustang, made 232rwhp stock. With basic bolt on's and a tune it made 270rwhp. It has a 150hp shot of nitrous on it. On the bottle it makes 411rwhp and 534ftlbs. That is fast.
I think you would be surprised at how fast a highly modded TDI is on the bottle. You may be making 411 to the wheels on the bottle but you're also doing it with more than twice the displacement with that 4.6/5.0. Keep in mind there are TDIs on here that run 11s and 12s in the 1/4. Most cars you run into on the street are NOT that fast...and if they are, the driver isn't (sandbagging, missed shifts, etc.).

The TDI can not only be fast but it can go right back to 40+mpg after simple software change. The 'stang can't exactly do that.
A fast TDI is unique....fast 'stangs are a dime a dozen.

Don't get me wrong...I like power of all kinds. I have a BB Mopar that is my other toy. I've been in KB/Whipple Cobras, LT1/LS1/LS6 Chevys, and the like. I grew up around muscle in NC.

I keep coming back to the TDI because it does several things well, not just one. It surprises people daily. Not so much with cammed-up muscle. People know and expect you to burn rubber. You lose the element of surprise ;)
 

vanbcguy

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"Fast" is such a relative term. No, these aren't the cheapest engines to make big power - you can easily spend $5k+ and have power output equivalent to a VR6. But the fun / cool factor of a higher HP TDI is pretty off the hook.

My drivetrain build project is approaching $10k now. Just looking through the classifieds - I could pick up a nice 944S for that money and I can pretty guarantee the 944 will be faster. But with the TDI VW I still have dirt cheap brakes, cheap maintenance parts, cheap suspension parts and great fuel economy.... The TCO is heavily in favor of the VW at least in the pre-DPF world.

Sent from my HTC One XL using Tapatalk
 

Seatman

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For crying out loud, 200bhp is 200bhp and a 200bhp tdi is as fast as any 200bhp of the same sort of size and weight. I think anyone with any sense knows they're not some kind of souped up sports car or a muscle car but come on. I mean, really?

For anyone else wanting to say how not fast a 200bhp tdi is just do every one a favour and don't. :rolleyes:
 

jay_fyp

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I saw a commercial for a freaking KIA with a car in the mid to high 200hp range and I just decided I'm no longer going much further than simple computer tunes on my TDIs and a free flowing exhaust after seeing that. It's just WAY to expensive for something that is offered on most basic cars. I was on the verge of the 2260 turbo upgrade for my 2013 TDI at the cost of 4k, I opted to buy another TDI for a similar price to use as my backup car, a few hundred bucks for a tune and it makes me happy. I'm done sinking money. I would however love to own and heavily mod an MK4 R32.

Anywho, OP, a simple tune and not a whole lot of money, you'll have a nice fun torquey TDI that is reliable and gets great fuel economy, don't sink a ton of money into it unless you have it and it's your hobby.
 

burpod

teh stallionz!!1
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cape cod, ma
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82 rabbit vnt ahu, 98 jetta vnt ahu, 05 parts car, 88 scirocco.. :/
and how much torque does that kia have? lol. go drive one and see how fun it is. i can't believe you even brought a kia into this...
 

jay_fyp

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New Jersey
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and how much torque does that kia have? lol. go drive one and see how fun it is. i can't believe you even brought a kia into this...
I will never drive one or test drive one for that mater, my point was to the OP, it costs a ton to mod the TDI (heavily), and itll still never be as quick as a basic sedan most companies are offering. I love the TDI and will always be my car of choice. I'm not putting 4k into MINE though (though I probably did already to my CR). To each their own, and I love the heavily modded TDIs.
 

MAXRPM

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I can't believe that some members are still debating about TDIs, pls go and check a gasser 300hp how much TQ they got then check a TDI with 200hp how much TQ its got,,, that is your answer,,, does the TDi feel fast yes they do, are they fast when you take off or climb a hill of course they are,,, so let's put the 2 and 2 together,,, HP vs TQ!!! a lot of missconception here,,, go on a roll from one light to another and you will be surprised how many gasser cars with way more HP would be in the dust,,, that is called TQ.
 

Trawlercap

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Oregon/Mexico/Alaska
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03' Jetta
Interesting read below....something in this will surprise everyone...I want "smiles per gallon" and is why I look to mod up to 150 h.p.

Ever wonder why a Top Fuel dragster gets a rebuilt engine after each run?

Stay with this - even if you aren't a 'car nut', this is stunning.

* One Top Fuel dragster outfitted with a 500 cubic-inch replica Dodge (actually Keith Black, etc) Hemi engine makes more horsepower (8,000 HP) than the first 4 rows of cars at NASCAR's Daytona 500.

* Under full throttle, a dragster engine will consume 11.2 gallons of nitro methane per second; a fully loaded Boeing 747 consumes jet fuel at the same rate but with 25% less energy being produced.

* A stock Dodge Hemi V8 engine cannot produce enough power to merely drive the dragster's supercharger.

* With 3000 CFM of air being rammed in by the supercharger on overdrive, the fuel mixture is compressed into a near-solid form before ignition. Cylinders run on the verge of hydraulic lockup at full throttle.

* At the stoichio metric 1.7:1 air/fuel mixture for nitro methane the flame front temperature measures 7050 degrees F.

* Nitro methane burns yellow. The spectacular white flame seen above the stacks at night is raw burning hydrogen, dissociated from atmospheric water vapor by the searing exhaust gases.

* Dual magnetos supply 44 amps to each spark plug. Which is typically the output of an electric arc welder in each cylinder.

* Spark plug electrodes are totally consumed during a pass. After 1/2 way thru the run, the engine is 'dieseling' from compression and the glow of the exhaust valves at 1400 degrees F. The engine can only be shut down by cutting the fuel flow.

* If spark momentarily fails early in the run, unburned nitro builds up in the affected cylinders and then explodes with enough sufficient force to blow the cylinder heads off the block in pieces or split the block in half !!

* Dragsters reach over 300 MPH +... before you have completed reading this sentence.

* In order to exceed 300 MPH in 4.5 seconds, a dragster must accelerate an average of over 4 G's. In order to reach 200 MPH well before reaching half-track, at launch the acceleration approaches 8 G's.

* Top Fuel engines turn approximately 540 revolutions from light to light!

* Including the burnout, the engine must only survive 900 revolutions under load.

* The redline is actually quite high at 9500 RPM.

* THE BOTTOM LINE: Assuming all the equipment is paid for, the pit crew is working for free,
& NOTHING BLOWS UP, each run will cost an estimated $1,000 per second.

0 to 100 MPH in .8 seconds (the first 60 feet of t he run)
0 to 200 MPH in 2.2 seconds (the first 350 feet of the run)
6 g-forces at the starting line (nothing accelerates faster on land)
6 negative g-forces upon deployment of twin 'chutes at 300 MPH

An NHRA Top Fuel Dragster accelerates quicker than any other land vehicle on earth . . quicker than a jet fighter plane . . . quicker than the space shuttle....or snapping your fingers !!

The current Top Fuel dragster elapsed time record is 4.420 seconds for the quarter-mile (2004, Doug Kalitta).

The top speed record is 337.58 MPH as measured over the last 66' of the run (2005, Tony Schumacher).

Let's now put this all into perspective:

Imagine this...........You are driving a new $140,000 Lingenfelter twin-turbo powered Corvette Z-06. Over a mile up the road, a Top Fuel dragster is staged & ready to 'launch' down a quarter-mile s trip as you pass. You have the advantage of a flying start. You run the 'Vette hard, on up through the gears and blast across the starting line and pass the dragster at an honest 200 MPH.... The 'tree' goes green for both of you at that exact moment. The dragster departs & starts after you. You keep your foot buried hard to the floor, and suddenly you hear an incredibly brutally screaming whine that sears and pummels your eardrums and within a mere 3 seconds the dragster effortlessly catches & passes you. He beats you to the finish line, a quarter-mile away from where you just passed him. Think about it – from a standing start, the dragster had spotted you 200 MPH.....and it not only caught, but nearly blasted you off the planet when he passed you within a mere 1320 foot long race !!!!

That, my friends.....is acceleration.
 
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nexus665

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Austria
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Golf 4 1.9 ALH MY2002
That dragsters are just diesels waiting to come out of the closet? ^^ (when the spark plugs are burned away...)

Anyway, it's all in the eye of the beholder. 200whp will feel faster than 200bhp, and one person's "wow that's quick" is another person's "yawn, my corvette will do that in xxx".

For general-purpose driving in normal traffic, a 200 hp TDI is lots of fun and more than quick enough. Generally speaking, compared to performance gassers? Course not, but that's a very different target market. I can get mpg cruising at 120 mp/h that those people can't get at 50 mp/h, but they'll still leave me standing in the dust. So what :)

Regards
 

Spike_africa

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Location
Sarasota,FL
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2013 Passat TDI/w DSG
I think you would be surprised at how fast a highly modded TDI is on the bottle. You may be making 411 to the wheels on the bottle but you're also doing it with more than twice the displacement with that 4.6/5.0. Keep in mind there are TDIs on here that run 11s and 12s in the 1/4. Most cars you run into on the street are NOT that fast...and if they are, the driver isn't (sandbagging, missed shifts, etc.).

The TDI can not only be fast but it can go right back to 40+mpg after simple software change. The 'stang can't exactly do that.
A fast TDI is unique....fast 'stangs are a dime a dozen.

Don't get me wrong...I like power of all kinds. I have a BB Mopar that is my other toy. I've been in KB/Whipple Cobras, LT1/LS1/LS6 Chevys, and the like. I grew up around muscle in NC.

I keep coming back to the TDI because it does several things well, not just one. It surprises people daily. Not so much with cammed-up muscle. People know and expect you to burn rubber. You lose the element of surprise ;)

I know we can make power, my point being its so expensive for the returns on these motor's I just can't see it being worth it. Mine has some gofast parts and it's a fun daily driver that gets great mpg. If I wanted more power I would have to do turbo upgrades,full exhaust, injectors, and then retune it. It's just not worth it. My point was that if you want to go fast there are much better and cheaper options to do it. I have thought about doing turbo and exhaust upgrades to this car. And maybe even one day we will. But unless the parts break its just sooooo expensive for what you get back.
 

_Christ

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1996 Passat TDi
I know we can make power, my point being its so expensive for the returns on these motor's I just can't see it being worth it. Mine has some gofast parts and it's a fun daily driver that gets great mpg. If I wanted more power I would have to do turbo upgrades,full exhaust, injectors, and then retune it. It's just not worth it. My point was that if you want to go fast there are much better and cheaper options to do it. I have thought about doing turbo and exhaust upgrades to this car. And maybe even one day we will. But unless the parts break its just sooooo expensive for what you get back.
I'm /that/ guy... I usually mod things that need to be replaced anyway, just because aftermarket parts are often cheaper than dealer parts and even if they're slightly more expensive, or break even, it's still an 'upgrade' in most cases.

That said, things like exhaust work and other small things that /do/ help... well, they're cheap anyway, and especially in the case of the suitcase muffler, you're getting rid of approximately 1% of the total weight with a $3 piece of pipe and some welding... it's worth it.

No matter what you do to horsepower and torque, weight reduction is the ultimate in overall performance increases, IMO. The more weight you can reasonably lose without sacrificing safety, the quicker and faster your stock or lightly modified engine will be, the better your stock brakes and suspension will perform, etc.
 
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mojogoes

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May 1, 2003
Location
england
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mk3 tdi golf
I'm planning on doing a 17/22, pd150 injectors, smic or fmic(not sure which one yet), a stage 2 colt cam, and a 3 inch turbo back exhaust. I already have a stage 3 sbc on the car. I think that's it, it will probably be close to 200hp. Is this decent power for our cars? Is it quick? I've never ridden in a modded tdi so I dont have anything to compare to. If you have any input or experiences I'd appreciate it! Thanks!

Its faster than 100hp https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/...5NSOkNT9KpneUOgwTsKuSrKACQxKk6_GPRdi1DqCVphXF
 

Spike_africa

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I'm /that/ guy... I usually mod things that need to be replaced anyway, just because aftermarket parts are often cheaper than dealer parts and even if they're slightly more expensive, or break even, it's still an 'upgrade' in most cases.

That said, things like exhaust work and other small things that /do/ help... well, they're cheap anyway, and especially in the case of the suitcase muffler, you're getting rid of approximately 1% of the total weight with a $3 piece of pipe and some welding... it's worth it.

No matter what you do to horsepower and torque, weight reduction is the ultimate in overall performance increases, IMO. The more weight you can reasonably lose without sacrificing safety, the quicker and faster your stock or lightly modified engine will be, the better your stock brakes and suspension will perform, etc.
I'm with you on that. Though this is the nice quiet crusing car so I want to keep some type of muffler on it to keep it quiet. My friend has a welder and as much as the guys say BRM turbo's hate exhaust, I have thought about making a 2.5" turbo back. I could do it over the weekend and cost would be maybe $100 in piping. Add in a cheap $20 tip to make it look nice, and done.
 

Perfectreign

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Jul 20, 2013
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Los Angeles
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2000 Jetta GLS 5-speed
I saw a commercial for a freaking KIA with a car in the mid to high 200hp range and I just decided I'm no longer going much further than simple computer tunes on my TDIs and a free flowing exhaust after seeing that.
I have nothing against Kias (I used to own a Sedona) but keep in mind the power to weight ratio and the torque. I'm assuming you saw an Optima commercial. If so, that car has peak HP at 6,000 RPM. It also only has 180 ft-lbs of torque at that RPM. It also weighs 3,200 lbs.

My wife's '05 Vue (with the Honda V6 engine) has 250 HP but also only 240 ft-lbs of torque at 5,000 rpm and weighs 3,400 lbs.

by comparison your '04 Golf at 2,900 lbs may only show 100 HP but it has 177 ft-lbs of torque. That's only three ft-lbs torque less than the Kia at 300 lbs less weight.
 

nexus665

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Location
Austria
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Golf 4 1.9 ALH MY2002
Hi,

so what does having more torque gain you? What actually moves your car - torque or horsepower?

By definition, it is horsepower - which is calculated from torque at specific rpm. That's also why it's called power-to-weight ratio and not torque-to-weight ratio.

So if you have 177 ft-lbs of torque at 2000/min - what does that gain you? Not even 70hp. At higher rpm, torque is usually reduced on a stock diesel - yet it still accelerates faster. How so? Because it produces more HP at higher rpm - and this is what moves the car.

Don't get me wrong, high torque numbers sure sound cool - but they're not very interesting other than for traction and gearing or appendage measurement and comparison IMO.

Regards
 

jay_fyp

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2015 Golf TDI 6MT 2004 Jetta TDI (PD) 5mt R.I.P - 2013 Golf TDI 6mt - 2004 Golf TDI (PD) 5MT
I have nothing against Kias (I used to own a Sedona) but keep in mind the power to weight ratio and the torque. I'm assuming you saw an Optima commercial. If so, that car has peak HP at 6,000 RPM. It also only has 180 ft-lbs of torque at that RPM. It also weighs 3,200 lbs.
My wife's '05 Vue (with the Honda V6 engine) has 250 HP but also only 240 ft-lbs of torque at 5,000 rpm and weighs 3,400 lbs.
by comparison your '04 Golf at 2,900 lbs may only show 100 HP but it has 177 ft-lbs of torque. That's only three ft-lbs torque less than the Kia at 300 lbs less weight.

True true, and good analysis. And i realize that, it's just discouraging on modding the newer CR engines which cost an arm and leg to mod. My 2004 will be getting the works for sure:D The CR will stay where I am at now which has superb drivability and road trip and commuting ability without getting to crazy. I love it.
 
8

8v-of-fury

Guest
The sad truth is that MOST CARS on the road <%60 probably, are 150-200hp 3500lb 4 door family/young teen girl/ young male cars..

Like a Mazda3, or a Cobalt, or a G5, or a Sunfire.. Or a 225hp 1500GMC..

The cars that will take down your 200whp TDI DAILY COMMUTER ECONOMY POS..??

That top %20 or so.. The big stuff, the stuff you see once every couple of Sundays.. not being driven on the grind.. and if so, not being driven hard.

Oh your $10,000 car got beat by a 500hp mustang or corvette? I should damn well hope so....
 

nexus665

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Golf 4 1.9 ALH MY2002
The torque dictates the power at an RPM. It's relevant.
Exactly - so what is torque without RPM? Not too relevant ;) Torque does not move the car.

Work done = force * distance

If you remove the distance, all you have left is force.

Regards
 

Digital Corpus

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'97 B4 w/ 236K mi body, 46K mi soul
Exactly - so what is torque without RPM? Not too relevant ;) Torque does not move the car.
Work done = force * distance
If you remove the distance, all you have left is force.
Regards
If you remove RPM, you have no motion so the vehicle isn't moving...

Torque is a moment of twisting force that causes a machinery to rotate about an axis. This energy is converted into linear energy known as HP and is thus used to propell the car forward. Without the torque you have no HP. It is a prerequisite.
 
8

8v-of-fury

Guest
^^ A prerequisite for HIGH SPEED. Not for fast acceleration..

I have half the horsepower in my tdi as my brothers friend with his honda. Half the RPM range too..

More torque though, Meaning...... ? I can pull taller gears and accelerate faster. I win every time hands down no questions. I can be cruising under 2000 in 5th, and have him come rocketing up in 2nd at like 6500.. I'll lay in to it and take off to like 4000 in no time. I'm gone, he's still wringing out third wherever he was back there in that cloud. Now, if and when he catches up if we are still racing.. he will blow by me with ease due to more HP and higher revs allowing higher speed.. But I've been done the race for 30 seconds already... haha

I have out accelerated people pulling 1000lbs on a trailer for Christ's sake.

High hp Low tq cars suck the balls. They can go faster top speeds, but getting there is abysmal.
 

_Christ

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Jan 25, 2014
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Gillett, PA
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1996 Passat TDi
^^ A prerequisite for HIGH SPEED. Not for fast acceleration..

I have half the horsepower in my tdi as my brothers friend with his honda. Half the RPM range too..

More torque though, Meaning...... ? I can pull taller gears and accelerate faster. I win every time hands down no questions. I can be cruising under 2000 in 5th, and have him come rocketing up in 2nd at like 6500.. I'll lay in to it and take off to like 4000 in no time. I'm gone, he's still wringing out third wherever he was back there in that cloud. Now, if and when he catches up if we are still racing.. he will blow by me with ease due to more HP and higher revs allowing higher speed.. But I've been done the race for 30 seconds already... haha

I have out accelerated people pulling 1000lbs on a trailer for Christ's sake.

High hp Low tq cars suck the balls. They can go faster top speeds, but getting there is abysmal.
I can assure you, you weren't pulling /anything/ for my sake. I've never met you...
 
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