IP Timing

[ralphy6177]

Well replaced my timing belt on my 98 Jetta and all went smoothly thanks to the info. on this site. Car starts and runs great. Checked timing with Vag-Com and it was within spec but slightly retarded. I proceeded to adjust the pump timing and when I went to rotate the pump towards the engine it only moved a very small amount. It looks like the pump is at the end of it's adjustment travel. Timing is now just under the middle line in the graph. The timing is at about 38 with fuel temperature of 160.

Question is should I leave well enough alone or try and re-adjust? I have searched and cannot find any good info on fixing this. I assume I need to somehow set the pump somewhere near the middle of it's travel so it can be adjusted. Any help would be great.

 

[Chubber]

It's not usually that easy. If it's near the line with adaption off, that's going to be close enough. I also had a hard time getting mine to adjust, it hit the end of the adjustment range as well, but when I spent an afternoon fiddling with the belt tooth position I couldn't find another position that got me closer, so I went back to the original and just kind of leaned on the pump with a pry bar before snugging down the adjustment bolts. That gave me enough to be happy with it.

The automatic adjustment will move it anyway once you turn it back on.

 

[ralphy6177]

Thanks Chubber. I read your post where you said you used a prybar, I did a lot of searching before posting but could not find any good info on how to get more adjustment. I guess the person that did the last belt job may have gotten it a tooth off. I agree that it should be fine but what happens at my next TB change? Should I move the pump to the middle of it's travel once I lock down the sprocket and remove the TB? I know it's a long way away but just would like to know how to fix it when the time comes. Thanks

 

[G60ING]

The only way to get more adjustment would be to redo the timing belt job and put the pump in the middle of its adjustment range.

 

[TonyJetta]

I assume you have an AHU....

That was the same issue I had when I got the Passat going last year. My timing was just below the middle line, when advanced to the stops. No starting issues, just a VERY small amount of white smoke on startup. But we only see 20-30 days of ~30F weather in the winter, and 3-5 days of 20F weather, depending on mother nature.

Let it ride!

Tony

 

[ralphy6177]

Thanks, I'll let it ride for now and fix at the next TB . Down here in South Texas it rarely even gets into the 30's so no worry about hard starting.

I just had a thought. Would it be a good idea to put something in the timing belt writeup about checking the amount of adjustment available on the IP for the newbies? This was my first timing belt job and I had not heard of this issue until it happened to me.

 

[TonyJetta]

A month or two ago, a member made marks on one IP mount, referencing the range of motion of the IP.

They suggested marking the midpoint, so you know roughly where the IP is, in it's adjustment range.

I searched for pics, but could not find any.

Someone else who has a better memory may have the info for you.

Tony

 

[G60ING]

I think it was Herm

 

[TonyJetta]

I think it was Herm

I thought so too...I searched by his ID and could not find it.

Tony

 

[G60ING]

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=251065

 

[ralphy6177]

Thanks for your time guys. I'll remember to do this at my next tb job or if my timing gets too retarded over the next 30k.

 

[TonyJetta]

G60ING, thanks for posting it!

Tony

 

[Lug_Nut]

The only way to get more adjustment would be to redo the timing belt job and put the pump in the middle of its adjustment range.

How does this help? The pump sprocket is pinned. The pump housing is retarded even at its pushed back advance limit. Bringing the pump forward to "middle of its range" will make it even more retarded than it is.
Unless you suggest pinning the sprocket to locate "home", removing the pin and rotating the sprocket forward one tooth pitch, and then rotating the pump forward to match? That is the only means of gaining pump rearward rotation to further advance the fuel timing.

b.t.w.: That's the situation I'm in with mine. I can rotate the pump back (advanced) enough to get the graph above minimum, but can't rotate enough to center the graph.

 

[G60ING]

If you do the timing belt job without centering the pump you lose the ability to dial in the timing with the pump adjustment.

Did you center your IP before doing your timing belt job? If so then maybe you have a problem like Scott Stealth TDI has where he has to skip two teeth on his IP to set his timing as he has an odd problem with his pump.

 

[Lug_Nut]

I used a sharpie marker to reference where the pump was if I needed to restore it by eye. The degree of forward (retard) and back (advance) rotation I can achieve is not enough to offset the pump half and mount half of the sharpie line by more than the width of that line, maybe 1/8 inch of angular movement at the flange where the bolt resides. See Herm's chisel mark in his how-to linked above. I used a marker instead of the chisel and hammer he used, but otherwise the same location. The punch marks in his how-to are much further apart than the range I can move mine.
Yes, I loosened the injector line nuts. Yes, at both the pump and the injectors. Yes, I used a 5 lb hammer and block of wood.
I'd think that the pump should rotate more than this.

Centering the pump case does not change the position of the pump innards which are attached to the pinned sprocket. The pin, sprocket, key, shaft assembly determines where the rotary components are. The pump case can be (should be able to be) rotated to bring it in time with those items. At full case advance it's still retarded. Further retarding the case position to center it in its slots, then restoring it to its prior maximum advance position will put it precisely back to the not-advanced-enough position where it is now.
If can't rotate the case back any further. I might need to do a "Stealth mod" and rotate the sprocket (key, shaft, innards) forward instead to regain a full range of pump case adjustment.

But first I need to find out why my adjustment range is restricted.

 

[G60ING]

I know you know your way around the tdi fairly well so please don't take offense but are all 4 of the adjustment bolts loose? Maybe the fuel lines are restricting the movement of the pump. Try loossening these up a tad when rotating the pump also remove the plastic clip on the lines.

 

[Lug_Nut]

I know you know your way around the tdi fairly well so please don't take offense but are all 4 of the adjustment bolts loose? Maybe the fuel lines are restricting the movement of the pump. Try loossening these up a tad when rotating the pump also remove the plastic clip on the lines.

Maybe I don't know them that well. I had three bolts loose, one from the outside, the other two from reaching in through the pump sprocket cut-out holes.
If there's a 4th then that explains a lot.
Stay tuned.

 

[G60ING]

The 4th one is under the #2 injector on the back side of the injector pump on the IP bracket.

 

[tdibeliever]

ya beat me to it

 

[Lug_Nut]

So that 4th one must already be just loose enough to allow me to shift the pump a bit, but be cocking or binding to limit motion to but a fraction of what I should have available.
Round Two tonight......

 

[Lug_Nut]

Liars! Liars! Pants on fire!
There are three bolts holding the 1Z/AHU injector pump.

I really didn't think I was that senile yet.

 

[RIP TDI]

Self-justification is a wonderful thing . The 4th bolt is on the backside of the pump.

 

[Lug_Nut]

Ummm....Okaaayyy....
So how does that 4th bolt inhibit pump timing rotation adjustment?

<edit OK, SLAP ME HARD! I see it now at the OTHER end of the pump on its own slotted bracket! end edit>

 

[RIP TDI]

Same way the other three do; a slotted bracket bolts to the bottom of the pump head and that bracket then bolts to the rear extension of the pump mounting plate.

 

[Lug_Nut]

Much better, thanks for guiding this newbie through this brain fart.
Still waiting for the coolant temp to rise to 80C, but so far the timing is just slightly advanced of center line.

 

[G60ING]

I had the same problem when doing the timing belt on my tdi corrado last april.

 

[Lug_Nut]

I realized this morning that in 12 years, 7 TDI with 1Z/AHU, 2 swaps, at least 6 timing belt changes, that I had NEVER had to adjust the pump timing before.

 

[oilhammer]

LOL! Lucky dog!

 

[G60ING]

Pictures of the 4th bolt:
Here is where the IP bracket's 4th bolt hole is:

 

[Stealth TDI]

Hey,

If you do the timing belt job without centering the pump you lose the ability to dial in the timing with the pump adjustment.

Did you center your IP before doing your timing belt job? If so then maybe you have a problem like Scott Stealth TDI has where he has to skip two teeth on his IP to set his timing as he has an odd problem with his pump.

I missed this topic and the mention of my TB. My next TB change I will have to try centering or perhaps even "retarding" my IP prior to TB change. I'm not sure if it'll help. But something's gotta work since I've had this problem with two different IPs. I'm trying to wrap my brain around how this would work. Maybe I'll see it in action when the next TB is done in about 15,000 miles.

Later,

Scott