Investigating Diesel Smell

[SilverWagon]

My wagon runs fine but I've been dealing with the smell of strong diesel exhaust for a while. This could be placebo and/or another medical issue but I've experienced itchy eyes, throat, and coughing so I decided to have the local mechanic go hunting.

The only issues I have with the way the car runs is that the power is not consistent. The power loss is so small that it's like running at 10 some days and then down to 9.5 on others. Another issue is that it starts with a little puff of white smoke on occasion. When i floor it, it occasionally puffs some white smoke too. It starts hard 3 out of 5 starts. What I mean by hard is that it starts on the first crank but there's a lot of shake in the engine bay. Engine mounts and dog bone are fine.

The mechanic told me that he thinks it's an injection issue. He recommended having the pump replaced or rebuilt. He said that the labor cost its basicly going to cost the price of having the labor done on a timing change. I thought I might as well pay for the timing to be done at the same time if I wanted to add another $350 in parts....

I called the two shops I know in California that have the equipment to rebuild that pump and test it to spec. I was quoted $1100+. Injectors were about $120 each.

After talking to the wife and realizing I need to buy her a new vacuum for Christmas and I didnt want to get her upset with the money I'm spending, I decided to start with just the Injectors. The mechanic said the labor would be a lot less.

Besides the appeasement of my wife, what do you guys think of having the Injectors worked on first? Any suggestions?

 

[Mpaw]

I don't think I would go that way.
White smoke is normally coolant - maybe a slight leak into a cylinder when it stands, which burns off when started. Most would live quite happily with this situation for some time.
Diesel smell - probably not burning it all. I would first change the air filter and check all the vacuum hoses. Read out the fault codes properly and check timing (could save you megabucks). When was timing belt changed?
It seems to me that that is the kind of problem one can spend loads of money getting things sorted, basically at random, and still the problem remains. Go for diagnostics, and then some more.

 

[Mpaw]

Oh, of course, check all your diesel lines for leaks first

 

[STDOUBT]

Clarify "diesel smell" vs. "diesel exhaust".
One or both?
The exhaust would most likely be the flexible portion of your downpipe (exhaust side of turbo) having developed a crack.

 

[SilverWagon]

Clarify "diesel smell" vs. "diesel exhaust".
One or both?
The exhaust would most likely be the flexible portion of your downpipe (exhaust side of turbo) having developed a crack.

My previous 2003 jetta tdi sedans exhaust did not smell like this so I would say that it smells like diesel.

 

[SilverWagon]

I don't think I would go that way.
White smoke is normally coolant - maybe a slight leak into a cylinder when it stands, which burns off when started. Most would live quite happily with this situation for some time.
Diesel smell - probably not burning it all. I would first change the air filter and check all the vacuum hoses. Read out the fault codes properly and check timing (could save you megabucks). When was timing belt changed?
It seems to me that that is the kind of problem one can spend loads of money getting things sorted, basically at random, and still the problem remains. Go for diagnostics, and then some more.

Timing was done around 160k. The car has 212k now. Air filter is a k&N filter the previous owner installed.

 

[Tdijarhead]

What year car is this? 2003 in your signature? You are in the MK4 section.

If there is actual diesel leaking in your engine compartment then it will be evident by a wetness usually around the sides or top of your injection pump, sometimes down behind and underneath it. One of the hard steel lines that lead to each of your injectors, or on top of your fuel filter or the fuel lines leading to it. If there is no wetness in those areas that when rubbed with your finger and held to your nose smells like diesel then you likely have no diesel leak in the engine bay.

Unless you hit something and damaged a line under your car, in which case you should notice wetness on the ground under your passenger side rocker panel.

The other possibility I can think of is a leak around the seal on fop of your fuel tank, which you could easily check by lifting the rear seat, removing the small cover on the passenger side and looking at the top of the fuel tank. If it’s dry and dusty then you’re good. If it’s damp and dirty the seal is leaking.

If your injection pumps need to be rebuilt I would send it to DIFS along with the injectors, however if this is your 03 with 200k it’s unlikely that is needed yet unless your pump is leaking.

The other possibility for diesel smell is the exhaust pipe flex section as noted above.

 

[SilverWagon]

What year car is this? 2003 in your signature? You are in the MK4 section.

If there is actual diesel leaking in your engine compartment then it will be evident by a wetness usually around the sides or top of your injection pump, sometimes down behind and underneath it. One of the hard steel lines that lead to each of your injectors, or on top of your fuel filter or the fuel lines leading to it. If there is no wetness in those areas that when rubbed with your finger and held to your nose smells like diesel then you likely have no diesel leak in the engine bay.

Unless you hit something and damaged a line under your car, in which case you should notice wetness on the ground under your passenger side rocker panel.

The other possibility I can think of is a leak around the seal on fop of your fuel tank, which you could easily check by lifting the rear seat, removing the small cover on the passenger side and looking at the top of the fuel tank. If it’s dry and dusty then you’re good. If it’s damp and dirty the seal is leaking.

If your injection pumps need to be rebuilt I would send it to DIFS along with the injectors, however if this is your 03 with 200k it’s unlikely that is needed yet unless your pump is leaking.

The other possibility for diesel smell is the exhaust pipe flex section as noted above.

It's a 2003, manual, ALH, Jetta, wagon.

As for your suggestion about the fuel tank. The diesel smell only comes about when the car is on. I'll take a look.

I don't see any leaking at all. I had another injection pump's seals go out on a different ALH vehicle and I could see the fuel dripping from the pump. That's not happening here but it's possible the other areas you mentioned are damp.

As far as the rebuilding of the injection pump, I was told by 2 rebuilders in my area that they only know of Becs, in Whittier, and Diamon Diesel, in San Francisco, who have the testing equipment to verify a proper rebuild. Same with the Injectors.

The 2 rebuilders I know only work on mechanical pumps in Bakersfield and Visalia. They use our software Actionrev.com for their business. I trust their word but they might not know of others.

Thank you.

 

[KLXD]

He thinks it's and injection issue and his first choice is a pump rebuild? How did he arrive at that recommendation rather than checking the injectors? How familiar is he with Diesels and TDI's in particular? Sounds like you suggested injectors and he said yeah, ok. Have either of you checked it with VCDS or equivalent?

And are you using coolant to indicate that's the smoke? A bit of smoke at start is not unusual especially if you're getting a bit of air in. Maybe at the filter.

I agree with Mpaw. Full diagnosis before spending big bucks on rebuilding things.

 

[SilverWagon]

He thinks it's and injection issue and his first choice is a pump rebuild? How did he arrive at that recommendation rather than checking the injectors? How familiar is he with Diesels and TDI's in particular? Sounds like you suggested injectors and he said yeah, ok. Have either of you checked it with VCDS or equivalent?

And are you using coolant to indicate that's the smoke? A bit of smoke at start is not unusual especially if you're getting a bit of air in. Maybe at the filter.

I agree with Mpaw. Full diagnosis before spending big bucks on rebuilding things.

The mechanic said he checked it with vagcom and it's functioning within range. He works on German cars. I saw another alh there when I came to pick up the Injectors.

The mechanic suggested the injection pump because he said he "thinks" the fuel is being sprayed wrong and/or off timing. He said he can adjust timing slightly using vagcom but that might just be a bandaid so he said to replace or rebuild the pump. If i was having the pump replaced I would have had the Injectors done with and timing hardware because he said the cost of labor is the same as having timing done.

The wife doesn't want me to spend $2300 so I said to have the Injectors pop tested and, if needed, rebuilt.

I'm already into the job $150 for diagnosis and I've sent the Injectors to a rebuilder. If they all work it's about $160 to test all. The cost per rebuild is $120; including testing. I suggested the Injectors to start low and use the diagnostic towards labor.

 

[csstevej]

Check your braided hoses between injectors , had a leak there on my sons car , same symptoms..only smelled raw diesel when running.
I too would recommend someone who works on these car regularly , see if there is a guru in your area even if you have to drive an hour or so…it will be money well spent.
I personally would like to see where the timing is set at….slightly retarded timing will give a hard start along with white smoke through my experience.
Personally I would like to see mechanical timing set first then go to VCDS and dial it in……it doesn’t take much to be spot on or slightly retarded.
I highly doubt that your IP is at fault….not impossible….just highly doubt it….

 

[WolfgangVW]

Clarify "diesel smell" vs. "diesel exhaust".
One or both?
The exhaust would most likely be the flexible portion of your downpipe (exhaust side of turbo) having developed a crack.

X2 on this if you think it could be exhaust at all. I just replaced mine it was getting so bad when it was cold it was hard to sit in the car when it wasn’t moving. But it sounds like your maybe smelling raw diesel…..

On a long shot is it possible somehow you got diesel tracked into your car on the floor carpet or something and when the car is running the blower Motor is wafting it all around the cabin ?? I’ve stepped in diesel at the pumps and then it ended up on my floor mats and had the smell of raw diesel until I cleaned it. It sounds like you’re likely way further into investigation on this but just thought I’d share. Good luck !!

 

[SilverWagon]

I spoke with Becs Pacific in Whittier today. The guy I spoke with said to check to see if the fuel flow into the injection pump is being restricted. He said that low fuel coming in can cause the pump to, if I remember correctly, put more air into the cylinders. He said the pump is some what dynamic; it can adjust fuel and air slightly.

I went to the mechanic to get something out of the car and while I was there I asked what he tested. He said he checked vagcom and vacuum hoses; but didn't check the the flexible part of the downpipe. He said that the symptoms the car has, the excess smell of diesel coming from the exhaust means fuel is getting into it and it wouldn't smell that bad.

He said he believes it's a distributor block inside of the pump that could be worn. Apparently it adjusts the fuel going to each injector. I assume that's the part the guy from Becs Pacific was talking about that might be having issues if the fuel line is constricted.

I live between Bakersfield and Fresno. I don't know of a tdi guru around here.

 

[Nuje]

Just throwing out cheap/free things to consider: A crack in the hard EGR pipe near the firewall, while not "diesel" smell" definitely does smell (exhaust...with diesel overtures and undertones) only when running, is often hard to notice/see...and results in low power.
(BEW hard pipe shown below, but same idea in the ALH)

 

[oilhammer]

You first need to figure out what you are smelling. Diesel FUEL does not at all smell like diesel EXHAUST. Either would/should be easy enough to find. The fuel system is pretty simple, and pretty concentrated. Once the engine cover is off, you can SEE the entirety of the fuel system under the hood, right up top, right out in the open. If it is wet with fuel, it is leaking. Diesel fuel does not evaporate like gasoline does. It will hang around and make a slick wet oily mess. It will be obvious. The rest of the fuel system is the lines running down the passenger side of the car underneath, some of which is inside the unibody rail, and goes up to the fuel tank near the RR wheel down low.

Exhaust is perhaps more work, because that part is mostly on the backside, underneath the car. But any leak in the ALH's exhaust system will leave traces of black soot. So a cracked EGR pipe (never seen that on an ALH), or a cracked flex pipe (seen that plenty of times) or a tint hole rusted through near the welds on the catalyst (common) or near the sleeve clamp in the center of the car (also common) will be easily seen from underneath.

 

[BobnOH]

SW- me thinks that shop is trying to sell you a new injection pump.
Do as OH suggests, simply remove top cover and look see.
The little viton fuel return tubes are often ignored.

 

[Nuje]

So a cracked EGR pipe (never seen that on an ALH),

Wow - that's shocking. I've worked on probably 1/100th (if not fewer) the number of ALH cars as @oilhammer, and I've come across it twice, so figured it wasn't a rarity.

 

[SilverWagon]

Here's an update. I spoke with Becs and they told me three of the Injectors had problems. 3 had spring issues causing too much fuel and one had a bad nozzle. I spoke with the tech who worked on them and he immediately said the car likely is starting with white smoke so I asked him if that's why I smell diesel and he said it likely is.

Becs charged me $715, which is higher than I expected. I was originally told testing costs about $20 to $40 and a rebuild costs $140, per Injector. I was told testing was part of the rebuild price. When I was called for payment I was driving so I didn't question the cost. When I got the shipment there wasn't an itemized invoice or notes on what was performed. They look pretty though...

I took them to the shop that has the car and he said the cost is going to be around $380 for diagnostic and because he has to adjust timing on the Injectors.

 

[P2B]

$380 to install injectors is pretty steep. There is no timing adjustment on injectors.

 

[turbodieseldyke]

$380 to install injectors is pretty steep. There is no timing adjustment on injectors.

Possibly he meant IQ adjustment, but even then, the labor should be conditional. If it works right the first time, then no additional adjustments and no additional labor.

 

[SilverWagon]

$380 to install injectors is pretty steep. There is no timing adjustment on injectors.

Possibly he meant IQ adjustment, but even then, the labor should be conditional. If it works right the first time, then no additional adjustments and no additional labor.

I assume he means the iq also. He's charging $149 for the diagnostic and said it might be used to put towards the repair. His original diagnosis was that the injection pump was too rich on the diesel because it was likely worn on an ALH that has 210k. It was my idea to start with the injectors. He brought up purchasing a pump off one of the mechanics in the shop or he said he could get me a "New" one for about $1600. I think he quoted me $1200 for the used one. I would rather have mine rebuilt. It would be about $1200 to rebuild anyways.

I assume his diagnostic was hooking up vagcom, visual inspection, and test drive.

 

[SilverWagon]

How long does it take to take injectors off and then put them back on?

 

[KrashDH]

How long does it take to take injectors off and then put them back on?

30 minutes give or take.
Hung open injectors flowing too much will cause white smoke on startup. It will smell like raw diesel, if it's an injector flowing too much or hung open it'll be dumping raw into the exhaust since it can't burn it all.

 

[BobnOH]

Krash is fast! Takes me that long to remove the cover and get the 4 hard lines off. A small slide hammer what will thread onto the injectors will ease removal.

 

[KrashDH]

Krash is fast! Takes me that long to remove the cover and get the 4 hard lines off. A small slide hammer what will thread onto the injectors will ease removal.

Ha I should have mentioned if everything goes smooth I wish they would have incorporated a seal or something between the body and the head because the gap is just large enough for crud to collect in there, which makes them VERY hard to remove initially. Even a silicone skirt slid over the body that flares out over the head bore would do wonders for making removal easier down the road. so long as no crud is in there, they should be loose and pop right out once the hard lines and hold down rockers are removed.

 

[BobnOH]

Now that's a Top Tip, get the area good and clean before you pop em out.

 

[SilverWagon]

Last week I got the car back with the rebuilt injectors installed and the next day the problem continued. The car started a little rough like before. Small puff of white smoke like before. The smell of raw diesel was in the air. I figured I would get to work on double checking everything mentioned above after the holidays.

I drove it around today to run errands before hitting the road to visit family out of town and I noticed somewhat of a vapor coming from the engine bay when I came to the stop light. I pulled over to take a look at the engine. It looked wet around the injectors and below. I took the car back to the mechanic and he said they were slightly rusted when he took them off before. He tightened them down and 1 still leaks... Now I need to replace the injector lines.

$1k spent and I'm assuming this was the problem to begin with.

Anyone know the best place to get these at an affordable price?

 

[KrashDH]

First thing, who "rebuilt" the injectors, and were they properly pop and flow tested?

This mechanic seems fishy to me. Pretty rare to have to replace the hard lines. Where was the root cause of the leak? Did said mechanic install them correctly? Did they use new sealing washers? Did they ensure to remove the old washers? They get stuck sometimes.

White smoke still points to an injector issue

 

[PakProtector]

Tightening the injector clamps and having the dampness go away on 3 of the 4 is IMO, is not a good sign. The seal between injector and head is what looks to be at fault. I am suspecting the cleaning job at the head's injector seal area was not cleaned properly. IOW, none of what has been described from this so-called mechanic inspires confidence...

Douglas

 

[SilverWagon]

First thing, who "rebuilt" the injectors, and were they properly pop and flow tested?

This mechanic seems fishy to me. Pretty rare to have to replace the hard lines. Where was the root cause of the leak? Did said mechanic install them correctly? Did they use new sealing washers? Did they ensure to remove the old washers? They get stuck sometimes.

White smoke still points to an injector issue

They were rebuilt by BECs Pacific in Whittier CA. I was told they have the testing equipment to rebuild these injectors by 2 rebuildsrs in my area that I known for 10 years.

Install the hard lines correctly? I don't know what that would entail. It doesn't look that complicated. I don't know if the mechanic used new sealing washers on the hard lines or remove the old washers.