intermediate shaft seal tore

diesel steve

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 23, 2009
Location
southfield,MI
TDI
1996 b4v
my 1996 Passat intermediate shaft oil seal was torn when I took it apart. The rubber was not hard and about 1/4 to 1/3 of the seal tore and oil was purring out. Before I took the gear of the shaft I tried to wiggle the shaft up and down and felt some play. I am wondering why the seal tore? I am planning on replacing the seal and hope the little play is not an issue. Just wondering what caused the seal to tare.The engine seemed to run fine. I did not think it had low oil pressure. Any thoughts?
 

ToddA1

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 3, 2011
Location
NJ 08002
TDI
'96 B4V, '97 B4 (sold), '97 Jetta (scrapped)
The actual seal or the green o-ring, behind the seal carrier?

If you had play, the bearing could be washed out. I guess you’ll find out when you get into it. I’m not sure the shaft can come out without disconnecting it from the subframe.

-Todd
 

Steve Addy

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 7, 2002
Location
Iowa
TDI
97 Mk3
The actual seal or the green o-ring, behind the seal carrier?

If you had play, the bearing could be washed out. I guess you’ll find out when you get into it. I’m not sure the shaft can come out without disconnecting it from the subframe.

-Todd
Todd's right, the engine must be lowered (or pulled out) in order to take out the intermediate shaft out completely.

Steve
 

iluvmydiesels

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 21, 2015
Location
phila area
TDI
AHU
if you have the im shaft pulley removed, the carrier is underneath. its right there now. the seal carrier. you seem to have removed it. i think now the shaft can come out some, what im asking is im not 100% sure if the shaft has the same end-play lip as earlier models. i think it does, or is similar.
some of the older models (mk1, & mk2. the old IDIs) that lip on the shaft that controls end-play, could just separate from the shaft. then again a lot of these cars had quite a few miles on them.
id check this lip first.

i pulled an im shaft or two on older mk2s. its a chore. i dont know if you have enough space with the mk3 fender. that large inner fender 'lip', that the air box sits on.
what i did for an older mk2. front tire off. oil pan off. using a jack and a few blocks of wood. i think i jacked the motor up (& then down) on the oil pan lip about where the front timing (& seal) cover is. loosen the main bolts on the other two motor/trans mounts. not all the way! loosen the bolts on the center mount. i think theres one on/from top and one lower. jack motor. see if jack support holds. remove the center bolts. jack motor. you should be able to get enough space where you can get the mount out. if you can, you may be in luck.
carefully lower/rotate motor, hopefully you will have enough space where you clear the fender. if so you can remove that im shaft. and be able to put one back in!
if thats you amount of work for now. itd be best to raise motor slowly, so you can put mount back in. so while you figure out what else to do, make plans, etc, the motor will be secure.
if its a bearing. id consider disassembling the motor as needed (before), and towing/or flatbed to a good shop to have them extract (both!?) bearings and press in new.
among other things, at the least the oil pump comes out, and vacuum pump.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
You can slide the I-shaft out enough to see the end bearing, and if it is discolored on the one side, it needs to be replaced. Which means pulling the engine out.

The I-shaft bearings have been getting harder and harder to find, BTW.

This is the problem with the early 4 cyl TDIs. They were based on an engine that was already 25 years old, and the extra load of the TDI's injection pump, with the bigger belt, auto tensioner, etc., I think places much more load on the I-shaft's front bearing as well as the crank snout, pulley, etc. So stuff you really never, ever saw with the old IDI VAG diesels, no matter how many miles they had covered, and despite being bolted to MUCH lower gears, you see quite commonly on the 1Z and AHU. The other one is lifter bore wear.

(this is where the ALH really shines... but that doesn't really help the OP much :( ).
 

diesel steve

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 23, 2009
Location
southfield,MI
TDI
1996 b4v
thanks for the replies. I will pull the shaft out a little to look at the bearing. I was going to just replace the seal.It was not the o ring that tore but the seal that is the same as the cam seal. Just wonder what caused it to tare. I do not want to pull the shaft out all the way. Just want to replace the seal and change the timing belt and hope there are no issues because of the little bit of play in the shaft. I do not have a dial indicator but I would guise about .010 or .015 movement up and down.
 

diesel steve

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 23, 2009
Location
southfield,MI
TDI
1996 b4v
Just getting motivated now to work on the car again.It has been apart for over one year. When I inspected the bearing it did not look like any failure from the bearing.I don't know why the seal tore.I will put a new seal in and try to put it back together.I miss driving my Passat,thanks.
 

reince

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 13, 2017
Location
GA
TDI
2006 Beetle

Benjamis

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 17, 2021
Location
Due east of Cincinnati, Ohio
TDI
1996 B4V 1Z 321k
Did you use the protective sleeve to prevent the seal from being damaged as it slid over the end of the shaft ?
I used the saran wrap with oil method the second time I put the seal on, but the first time I did not, I only lightly greased the lip of the new seal before putting it on, as recommended in the Bentley. But, it ended up failing within 20 miles. It was most likely not an issue with getting the seal on, but with the existing repair sleeve with sharp edge as explained in the thread that I linked above..
 

Benjamis

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 17, 2021
Location
Due east of Cincinnati, Ohio
TDI
1996 B4V 1Z 321k
I did notice that Kerma TDI has teflon camshaft/intermediate shaft seals after I bought the standard rubber with spring type. I suppose there's pros and cons to both, but not wearing a groove in the shaft is quite a benefit, as that is the underlying cause of why I tore a brand new seal. I just put a teflon rear main seal on almost 1,000 miles ago, seems to be holding up well.
 

ToddA1

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 3, 2011
Location
NJ 08002
TDI
'96 B4V, '97 B4 (sold), '97 Jetta (scrapped)
but apparently they make a teflon version like the rear main for the intermediate shaft seal now.

I was referring to the plastic sleeve. It used to come with the rear main seal, regardless if it was the older spring loaded lip, or not. Nowadays, I’ve gotten the spring loaded ones, without it. The Teflon seal always came with it.

The other seal is identified as a camshaft seal, with right rotation... I can’t think of anything that uses this seal, with a left rotation, on these cars.. If I’d have known it existed, I’d be using them... 038103085C

-Todd
 

ToddA1

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 3, 2011
Location
NJ 08002
TDI
'96 B4V, '97 B4 (sold), '97 Jetta (scrapped)
Well duh, the IM seal is left rotation. Had to pop the hood to figure that out...

So, this Teflon seal could be used for the cam and front crank. I didn’t bother searching if there’s a left rotation seal, but it wouldn’t surprise me if it existed.

-Todd
 

Steve Addy

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 7, 2002
Location
Iowa
TDI
97 Mk3
Well duh, the IM seal is left rotation. Had to pop the hood to figure that out...

So, this Teflon seal could be used for the cam and front crank. I didn’t bother searching if there’s a left rotation seal, but it wouldn’t surprise me if it existed.

-Todd
Yes...I was going to say, well, the IM does left rotation (CCW) but then you got it.

I'm surprised to see that the teflon cam / crank seal are directional...it's just a teflon flap that sits on the surface, I think it's odd that they're claiming directionality.

At any rate, it's out there but I didn't know about it. I have a slew of the OG spring backed seals I'll be using before the teflon anyway.

As for the rear main, yes, the teflon ones always (or always should) come with the plastic sleeve. I've never had an OG spring backed rear main seal come with a sleeve...ever.

I have maybe half dozen of the OG rear main kits to use before I go back to the teflon type. I think my teflon on the wagon leaks, and that makes me less than happy. I have a one teflon in inventory for crank that I'll probably use on the GTI project car when that things gets going.

Steve
 

volksguy

Veteran Member
Joined
May 29, 2003
I noticed this information

(No spring located behind the inner seal lip. Proper installation must be observed to ensure proper seal and to prevent premature failure. Installation surface must be clean and completely dry. Do not use any oil or grease on sealing surface. In order to ensure a secure seal the engine must not be operated for at least 4 hours after installation.)
 

Steve Addy

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 7, 2002
Location
Iowa
TDI
97 Mk3
I noticed this information

(No spring located behind the inner seal lip. Proper installation must be observed to ensure proper seal and to prevent premature failure. Installation surface must be clean and completely dry. Do not use any oil or grease on sealing surface. In order to ensure a secure seal the engine must not be operated for at least 4 hours after installation.)
That's the description / instructions for the new teflon type seal. We've had the rear main of this type for a while now, the version that can be used for crank front or camshaft / intermediate shaft is sort of newer. I'm not sure I would bother with it on anything but rear main...but that's just me.

Steve
 
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