Injector calibration on a pop tester

[486]

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Standard hat:
http://i.imgur.com/gy6pkEv.jpg
lock-out hat:
http://i.imgur.com/Nn6ggOK.jpg
Its extremely important the lock-out is made to exacting dimensions, I'm talking tenths.
So, to make your injectors single stage you surface grind that center separator plate dingus so that the counterbore in it is flush?
Or is that a separate piece in there rather than a counterbore?
I've only ever had single stage injectors apart. They just have a solid slug above the nozzle with a hole in it that the spring is through. I suppose the best answer would only be gotten by actually taking one apart.

ETA: to clarify my questions:
That piece you have in your hand, not including the dowel pins, is it two separate parts?
To make it single stage you remove the step from the inner circle to the outer circle?
 
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JFettig

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The hat on the inside, yes you can try that. Let me know how it works! Don't try to remove internals to do it because the springs work together
 

turbovan+tdi

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Why would you go single stage?
 

[486]

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Why would you go single stage?
http://nopr.niscair.res.in/bitstream/123456789/15818/1/IJEMS 19(6) 411-416.pdf
A possible gain of around 1% in efficiency. More energy going from fuel to power.

Downside is that peak combustion pressures might be a bit higher. Figure I can reduce timing a little bit (more like don't advance it quite as much over factory) at extremely high fueling to keep PCPs in check when they're highest. Then I'll still have the nice gain in the rest of the RPM range. (and it'll sound angrier :p)
 
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vw monster

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iroquios ontario
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Just a thought on you running lower cracking pressure and seeing more fuel simple answer is cause it is . I think I would check your cam face in your injection pump for volume of fuel or it being worn. But really good job on the wright up this is why getting your injectors set up for proper injection is very important . To make optimal power.
 

turbovan+tdi

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Good info on the single stage, thanks.
 

[486]

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Okay, took my injectors apart (two because I dropped one and mixed up all the pieces, lol) and figured out how they work.

Doing it as I initially thought (cutting the separator plate down so the tophat shaped piece had no travel) would just make the amount of possible pintle lift zero. Hydrolocked IP and bad stuff would happen.
Took me a while to realize there's a small ridge around the outside of the tophat shaped piece, not from wear, but to set the pintle travel between stages.


The black pin is down to the initial stage spring. Injector "pops" that one, and then the injector pintle contacts the tophat shaped piece and then "pops" the second stage spring.

So, to make them single stage without changing the pintle's lift value you would remove just the outer ring on the nozzle side of the tophat shaped piece. Removing more material than that would result in increasing the pintle lift. Same as lapping the pintle below the level of the nozzle body. I'm gonna just put my engine together with the nozzles as is for now. Later on I'll probably do the single stage thing, maybe increase the pintle lift by 5 thousandths. Maybe not. First I've gotta get together a pop tester (meaning, clean out the porta-power, add a gauge, and figure out how to defeat its pressure regulator)

 

[486]

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All right, so I've got a spare set of injectors now. I took them all apart and hey guess what? those hat shaped dittyboppers are all different sizes.

Two of them are some baseline dimension I forget, then one is 2 tenths bigger, and the fourth is 5 tenths bigger. In the "pintle lift" dimension, but it seems all of them are the same length on the "skinny part that projects in the air if you were to wear it as a tophat", so measuring the overall length is as good as measuring the height of the flange.

I'd bet that either I got a mismatched set of injectors from 3 different cars, or they use these as a selective fit to adjust the pintle lift to the nozzles' flow rate.

Either way, gonna try and find a shop around that will do "beer money work" on the 10 minute job of truing the jig I've made, then taking the two stage ridge off.
I don't have a surface grinder yet. Been on the lookout for a T&C grinder, or a cylindrical grinder that looks flexible in construction. Surface grinder just ain't multipurpose enough for my shop.
ETA: Got the work done at a local shop for free. I gave him a $20 bill. :p
 
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Seatman

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My injectors had been set as if they were single stage. One of mine went out at some point so I got them redone closer to home and when tested they were popping single stage style apparently. They're two stage now though.
 

[486]

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Pop tested them to something or another, they should be within 50 PSI of eachother. Gauge didn't have enough scale, though, so I had to move the pointer on the rack to get a little more scoot outta it. I sure hope the thing was out of calibration, as it was pegging a 5kPSI gauge. Ah well, skipped the ghetto flow testing I had planned since I don't have a pump capable of anything like 10k PSI with any sort of volume.

Had a manifold all plumbed up to put the same pressure to all four injectors, wanted something like 10k PSI and more flow rate than the injectors so that they wouldn't just bounce against the pop pressure. Get them open hopefully against the stops. Then run them into four graduated cylinders for a while, flowing around 100ccs of fuel, they should show any difference in flow plenty well. Adjust needle lift to match flow. Would have deepened the pockets in the separator plates to avoid dicking with setting pop pressure again.

Ah well, power balance'll be out the window, but who really cares? Motor never even got properly balanced for the heavier pistons and rods.
 

Digital Corpus

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Send them to a reliable shop with digital gear and they will balance them for you. Their balance is perhaps more significant than piston and connecting rod balance. That said, My estimated balances were not that far off from the resultant weights and I haven't been in a VE TDI that was so smooth at idle.
 

JFettig

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Interesting, that second half of the video is exactly what I do. I noticed his hat has a step on the outside where mine is flat. It will help separate the stages when the needle isn't perfectly flush with the end of the nozzle.
 

tdic

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Yea, I noticed that too. Not really sure what benefit that would provide. The thing I really liked about the video was the fact that he had the proper tester to confirm the results. However; the main pressure was higher on the modified pop test vs his Bosch machine 31.5 ish vs 30.98MPa, about a 5 bar difference. I think that, for anyone calibrating using this method, 5 bar is ok.

I lapped the from a spare injector flush, and poped my injectors today 190/280 ish. Replacing the nozzles would probably help bring my pressures back up, but I'm cash poor, time rich these days, spray pattern is good, so I'll try to shim them back. Might not be the "recommended" way to do it, but neither is poping the main stage... Thoughts JFetting?
 

tdic

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Yea, I noticed that too. Not really sure what benefit that would provide. The thing I really liked about the video was the fact that he had the proper tester to confirm the results. However; the main pressure was higher on the modified pop test vs his Bosch machine 31.5 ish vs 30.98MPa, about a 5 bar difference. I think that, for anyone calibrating using this method, 5 bar is ok.

I lapped the from a spare injector flush, and poped my injectors today 190/280 ish. Replacing the nozzles would probably help bring my pressures back up, but I'm cash poor, time rich these days, spray pattern is good, so I'll try to shim them back. Might not be the "recommended" way to do it, but neither is poping the main stage... Thoughts JFetting?
 

[486]

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Goran (dieselmeken) shares quite a bit of good info. Really nice guy.

The last pressure he checks confused me at first, but with some thought the pintle lift at idle is not full up to the travel stop, meaning that the hat shaped piece only moves a fraction of its travel. If that spring had variance from the others that you would otherwise be unable to see with the lockout piece, then the pintle lift and therefore the amount of fuel injected would vary, lacking the "idle smooth running correction" feature of the EDC 15 controlled pump.

All the time learning new things.
 

turbovan+tdi

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That video was awesome.

So to make it a single stage, what exactly did you and you guys do to the hat shaped piece? I am a little fuzzy on what you guys do to that piece.
 

tdic

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Goran (dieselmeken) shares quite a bit of good info. Really nice guy.

The last pressure he checks confused me at first, but with some thought the pintle lift at idle is not full up to the travel stop, meaning that the hat shaped piece only moves a fraction of its travel. If that spring had variance from the others that you would otherwise be unable to see with the lockout piece, then the pintle lift and therefore the amount of fuel injected would vary, lacking the "idle smooth running correction" feature of the EDC 15 controlled pump.
All the time learning new things.
Is he a TDIclub guy?

I think that you would be safe in assuming that if your pilot, and main pressures are good, your idle should be good aswell. Right..? I guess if you want to be really precise you could check it, but you cant adjust idle pressure without changing main pressure as they both operate on the same spring ( tested with the lift pin from inside the main spring removed )

That video was awesome.

So to make it a single stage, what exactly did you and you guys do to the hat shaped piece? I am a little fuzzy on what you guys do to that piece.
From left to right shows the sequence of event ( closed, pilot, main ) The hat we're talking about is the little orange piece on top of the nozzle and needle. Pay attention to the space in between the hat, and the nozzle. Injector one there isn't enough fuel pressure to overcome spring pressure so the needle stays down ( closed ). Injector two, fuel pressure rises to the point at which the pilot spring ( skinny spring at the top ) pressure is overcome, needle lifts, nozzle opens, fuel flows, pressure drops, needle drops, closing the nozzle. ( pilot ) The third injector shows a further increase in fuel pressure overcoming pilot and main spring pressures simultaneously, needle lifts, nozzle opens, fuel flows, pressure drops, needle drops, nozzle closes ( main )

Now the problem; how to test the main? If fuel pressure drops once the needle lifts on pilot, how can we increase the pressure enough to operate the main event? Disable the pilot. This is achieved by eliminating needle lift with out hat lift ( little orange piece ). If you look closely at the side of the hat which faces the nozzle you will see a raised ring around the perimeter of the face. The injector pictures show this as a space in between the nozzle and the hat with the pilot lift pin coming down through the center. Remove the the raised ring from a SPARE hat ( if you remove this ring from any or all of the injectors you intend on setting up for service, you will end up creating single stage injectors ) There are lots of different methods of removing this ring. I used a coarse/fine sharpening stone with water to lap the hat down to dimension using a figure eight pattern, rotating the hat a 1/4 turn or so every couple rotations to ensure am even lap. As JFetting said at the beginning, be very careful how much material you remove tenths ( 0.0001") count, check your progress as you go, lap to much, and your pop test will yield inaccurate results.



Check this thread out too

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=12460

This will have been an unnecessary explanation for a lot of you, but it was also intended for those who don't know
 
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turbovan+tdi

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Awesome, thanks.
 

SGoodall

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Does anyone have a source for shims? I have found them in a HC Cargo catalogue, however contacting them informed me the shims are NLA. The size is 7.25 OD and 3.00 ID with thickness from 1 to 2
 
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