Injection pump potentially out of factory time

[Bakeman71]

Hi all! New to the group but I’m having serious issues with getting my car to fire up. My engine blew up and I bought a used one to replace it. I had to swap over the head off the blown engine to the purchased one. I’ve set all the timing correctly, per the “TDI bible” and cannot get this stupid thing to start. After talking with a couple people in my area that really know these engines well, it seems that my IP is potentially out of the factory setting. I may have accidentally loosened the set nut. I marked the pulley where the pin goes and took a slomo video to see if the cylinder 1 injector shot when the pin hole would be lined up. It appears to shoot when the pin hole is past the proper alignment position but it’s kind of hard to tell exactly. Any help would be greatly appreciated!!

 

[AndyBees]

Welcome to the TDI Club

The following are my suggestions.

1. Set the Crankshaft at TDC by looking at the Factory mark thru the view hole in the transmission. Set it dead-on with the V pointing at the groove in the Pressure Plate on the Flywheel......... you must start there.

2. Valve Cover off, verify by seeing that the two Cam Lobes on #1 are roughly at 10:00 and 2:00 as well as putting the Cam Lock in place........ or, if you do not have a Cam Lock tool, at least see that the slot in the end of the Camshaft is horizontal with the top of the head. (The Vacuum Pump will have to be removed to see the slot in the end of the Camshaft.) *See note below..

3. Next, use a light and mirror to verify that the Injection Pump (IP) is at TDC. You can see the hole with a mirror. I did this today on a 2001 Jetta. Now, by wiggling the Crankshaft forward or backward very, very slightly, you should be able to insert the lock pin. If you cannot do this, well, the Timing relationship of the Crankshaft and IP are screwed up.

4. So, with the above in order, (Camshaft, Crankshaft and Injection Pump (IP) all at TDC), loosen the three bolts on the IP Cog. Next, using a 22mm wrench or adjustable wrench, rotate the IP shaft, forward or backward so that the three bolts are roughly dead-center in the slots of the IP Cog. Then, tighten the three bolts at least 12 to 15 ft lbs.

Your engine should start right there.

I've changed a crap load of Timing Belts on ALH engines. I've never had one to fail to start. In fact, they've all almost immediately fired-up with very little cranking.

I've been inside several early model MK1 Bosch Injection Pumps as well as a few on these ALH engines, in my opinion, the IP can only be in-time or off-time by 180 degrees ..... no other way to be out of time internally. If I am wrong, hopefully someone will make it clear.

Do not use Starting Fluid of any kind.

Note: Without the proper tool, removing the Valve Cover Bolts can be tricky, especially those two next to the Intake and EGR assembly. But, you can verify the Camshaft position by only removing the Vacuum Pump as described above.

Hopefully, others will chime in..

I hope this helps.

Keep us posted.

 

[noob_tl]

I may have accidentally loosened the set nut.

Are you referring to the nut in the center that holds the hub to the IP shaft? Did you remove the hub from the shaft? If so, then you likely disturbed the pump timing. If you didn't remove the hub from the shaft then I doubt the hub would have moved, and you should be able to set the timing as Andy described.

 

[jokila]

I would start with crank to IP timing check. We have to assume the crank to cam timing is correct for the time being.

Get the crank to TDC, then check pin hole alignment on IP. Many no start situations after a timing belt job often is the misalignment of the IP's TDC position.

Send a pic of the pin stabbed and where it aligns over the top of the pump. The top of the pump is the postage stamp sized flat spot on the other side of he pulley.

 

[Bakeman71]

Welcome to the TDI Club

The following are my suggestions.

1. Set the Crankshaft at TDC by looking at the Factory mark thru the view hole in the transmission. Set it dead-on with the V pointing at the groove in the Pressure Plate on the Flywheel......... you must start there.

2. Valve Cover off, verify by seeing that the two Cam Lobes on #1 are roughly at 10:00 and 2:00 as well as putting the Cam Lock in place........ or, if you do not have a Cam Lock tool, at least see that the slot in the end of the Camshaft is horizontal with the top of the head. (The Vacuum Pump will have to be removed to see the slot in the end of the Camshaft.) *See note below..

3. Next, use a light and mirror to verify that the Injection Pump (IP) is at TDC. You can see the hole with a mirror. I did this today on a 2001 Jetta. Now, by wiggling the Crankshaft forward or backward very, very slightly, you should be able to insert the lock pin. If you cannot do this, well, the Timing relationship of the Crankshaft and IP are screwed up.

4. So, with the above in order, (Camshaft, Crankshaft and Injection Pump (IP) all at TDC), loosen the three bolts on the IP Cog. Next, using a 22mm wrench or adjustable wrench, rotate the IP shaft, forward or backward so that the three bolts are roughly dead-center in the slots of the IP Cog. Then, tighten the three bolts at least 12 to 15 ft lbs.

Your engine should start right there.

I've changed a crap load of Timing Belts on ALH engines. I've never had one to fail to start. In fact, they've all almost immediately fired-up with very little cranking.

I've been inside several early model MK1 Bosch Injection Pumps as well as a few on these ALH engines, in my opinion, the IP can only be in-time or off-time by 180 degrees ..... no other way to be out of time internally. If I am wrong, hopefully someone will make it clear.

Do not use Starting Fluid of any kind.

Note: Without the proper tool, removing the Valve Cover Bolts can be tricky, especially those two next to the Intake and EGR assembly. But, you can verify the Camshaft position by only removing the Vacuum Pump as described above.

Hopefully, others will chime in..

I hope this helps.

Keep us posted.

So I literally have done all of this. About a dozen times now. It’s cranking no problem it’s just not firing for some reason. Maybe I’ll try to 180 the IP and see if that’s the issue.

 

[Bakeman71]

Are you referring to the nut in the center that holds the hub to the IP shaft? Did you remove the hub from the shaft? If so, then you likely disturbed the pump timing. If you didn't remove the hub from the shaft then I doubt the hub would have moved, and you should be able to set the timing as Andy described.

Yes, I was told if loosened it could throw the pump out of time from proper timing alignment with itself basically. I don’t remember ever cranking on it enough to loosen it but it’s hard telling.

 

[jokila]

So I literally have done all of this. About a dozen times now. It’s cranking no problem it’s just not firing for some reason. Maybe I’ll try to 180 the IP and see if that’s the issue.

And you could be doing it a dozen times wrong.

There are many posts on this site of people claiming with surety they have it pinned correctly come to find out they were off even when they "have done all of this".

The fact you say this:

,,, Maybe I’ll try to 180 the IP and see if that’s the issue.

means to me you really are not sure that you have it properly aligned.

Here is a thread of what it should look like when pinned correctly and not. Be sure to expand the first post which has the correct pics.

Injection Pump Lock Pin Position: Does it matter?

The following is the quote and pictures from Drivbiwire's A4 Timing Belt Replacement Procedure, Page 91-92 The first picture shows me using a crescent wrench to turn the center bolt to align the pin hole so that I can insert the lock pin. The last picture shows the orientation of the pin...

forums.tdiclub.com

See post 15 for what it looks like behind the sprocket.

This post should summarize what I think is happening.

Replaced belt, Car wont start procedure...

Nope its not air in the fuel line, Its not the cam timing because you pulled the engine through by hand right???? right And of course you followed the procedure EXACTLY the way it was posted...Ahh but it did not start so what could it be? 99% of the time its the injection pump lock pin. But of...

forums.tdiclub.com

 

[AndyBees]

All diesel engine needs is Air, Fuel Injected at the correct time and the appropriate compression of the Air.
And, some say the engine needs to spin at least 250 RPMs or the IP will not inject fuel (the ECU controls it, apparently).

Keep us posted on your progress...

 

[Nuje]

Some images of the IP and how it can seem like you have it locked properly, but instead, have the pin in the "sucker hole".

Use a mirror to verify that you see a round hole when you have it locked at TDC.

 

[Nevada_TDI]

There is no way to 180 degree out on the pump as the notch on the front flange can only be in one spot that is aligned as the picture shows.
The pulley does not need to be on the front of the pump to set the pump timing on the pump. once the pump is pinned it will not move so you can get the crank set, the camshaft set and set the pump pulley with the bolts in the center of the slots. tighten the bolts, set the tension on the belt, and she should fire. Do you have VCDS? After cranking on the engine VCDS will show approximately where the timing is, and you may need to slightly move the IP pulley.

 

[AndyBees]

There is no way to 180 degree out on the pump as the notch on the front flange can only be in one spot that is aligned as the picture shows.
The pulley does not need to be on the front of the pump to set the pump timing on the pump. once the pump is pinned it will not move so you can get the crank set, the camshaft set and set the pump pulley with the bolts in the center of the slots. tighten the bolts, set the tension on the belt, and she should fire. Do you have VCDS? After cranking on the engine VCDS will show approximately where the timing is, and you may need to slightly move the IP pulley.

Without "quoting" my post in #5 above, where I mentioned "out of time" by 180 degrees, if you go back and read it again, you'll see I mentioned internally. Maybe I should have made that a little more clear. My comment was intended for the OP to understand there was no way the Factory Internal Timing could be off as it is mechanically impossible unless the IP is disassembled and re-assembled incorrectly.

However, I do agree with your assessment of the IP timing externally.

Guys, I just finished doing a Timing Belt job on an 01 ALH engine without the transmission installed and no flywheel on it. This is not Rocket Science. I've done so many TB jobs on these ALH engines that I'd trust my own "Mark & Pray" method without any of the specialty tools.

Anyway, considering the OP has already done all the suggestions we've put forth, maybe he should "bleed" the Injector Pipes at the injectors. If fuel is being injected and the engine doesn't start, there should be white "diesel smoke" and a rich odor of diesel fuel. The OP has not said anything about such smoke or odor. So, maybe the IP is not injecting fuel because there is air in the system...... namely from the IP to the injectors.

Lastly, if the three points of timing, particularly the IP and Crankshaft, are correct and the IP Cog is set roughly in the center of the slots, the engine will start. As I previously said, I've never had one to fail to start using this method.

 

[KLXD]

Bakeman, even if you loosened the the pump center nut, the flange is on a taper and is pretty difficult to remove from the pump shaft. I've done it intentionally. I very much doubt you got the pump flange to shift on the shaft if you loosened the nut.

Carry on as suggested above.

 

[Bakeman71]

And you could be doing it a dozen times wrong.

There are many posts on this site of people claiming with surety they have it pinned correctly come to find out they were off even when they "have done all of this".

The fact you say this:


means to me you really are not sure that you have it properly aligned.

Here is a thread of what it should look like when pinned correctly and not. Be sure to expand the first post which has the correct pics.

Injection Pump Lock Pin Position: Does it matter?

The following is the quote and pictures from Drivbiwire's A4 Timing Belt Replacement Procedure, Page 91-92 The first picture shows me using a crescent wrench to turn the center bolt to align the pin hole so that I can insert the lock pin. The last picture shows the orientation of the pin...

forums.tdiclub.com

See post 15 for what it looks like behind the sprocket.

This post should summarize what I think is happening.

Replaced belt, Car wont start procedure...

Nope its not air in the fuel line, Its not the cam timing because you pulled the engine through by hand right???? right And of course you followed the procedure EXACTLY the way it was posted...Ahh but it did not start so what could it be? 99% of the time its the injection pump lock pin. But of...

forums.tdiclub.com

You’re absolutely right in that aspect. But the only thing I’m not sure of is if the IP didn’t somehow get knocked out of factory timing with itself

 

[Bakeman71]

Bakeman, even if you loosened the the pump center nut, the flange is on a taper and is pretty difficult to remove from the pump shaft. I've done it intentionally. I very much doubt you got the pump flange to shift on the shaft if you loosened the nut.

Carry on as suggested above.

That makes me feel a lot better about that part of this fiasco.

 

[AndyBees]

Blakeman, I've been a rather active member on here for over 20 years. I've never heard of Factory Timing. I have no clue what it means. The internal part of the IP will only go back together one of two ways, one is correct and the other is incorrect. And, there is no way to change it internally unless the IP is disassembled.

The external aspect of the IP and how to set the timing has been discussed in great detail in this Thread.

So, if anyone knows of a Thread where Factory Timing has been discussed, please provide a link to it.

Anyway, as I mentioned in my last post, doe the engine smoke diesel when you are trying to start it? If so, do you smell raw diesel fuel? Have you scanned for codes? If so, what are they

 

[Nuje]

To be sure you absolutely have the IP correct, you can (assuming timing belt is off or at least loose), fully remove the three 13mm IP bolts and pull the sprocket right off. Then you can insert the butt-end of an 11/64th drill bit into the locking hole and visually see / confirm that you have done so. And then, keeping the drill bit there, put the sprocket back on, centre it in the slots, re-tension the timing belt, and then tighten everything down again (confirming flywheel and camshaft are still TDC).

 

[Bakeman71]

Without "quoting" my post in #5 above, where I mentioned "out of time" by 180 degrees, if you go back and read it again, you'll see I mentioned internally. Maybe I should have made that a little more clear. My comment was intended for the OP to understand there was no way the Factory Internal Timing could be off as it is mechanically impossible unless the IP is disassembled and re-assembled incorrectly.

However, I do agree with your assessment of the IP timing externally.

Guys, I just finished doing a Timing Belt job on an 01 ALH engine without the transmission installed and no flywheel on it. This is not Rocket Science. I've done so many TB jobs on these ALH engines that I'd trust my own "Mark & Pray" method without any of the specialty tools.

Anyway, considering the OP has already done all the suggestions we've put forth, maybe he should "bleed" the Injector Pipes at the injectors. If fuel is being injected and the engine doesn't start, there should be white "diesel smoke" and a rich odor of diesel fuel. The OP has not said anything about such smoke or odor. So, maybe the IP is not injecting fuel because there is air in the system...... namely from the IP to the injectors.

Lastly, if the three points of timing, particularly the IP and Crankshaft, are correct and the IP Cog is set roughly in the center of the slots, the engine will start. As I previously said, I've never had one to fail to start using this method.

I do get smoke and the smell of diesel. I guess o should add that when I purchased the car, the key was in two pieces. The key itself and the fob separated. The kids were caught playing inside the car and the fob “mysteriously” disappeared but I had a new key cut and the fob they claim they married to the car. The security light was on initially until they programmed the new fob and now it’s off. Any chance that light would be off even if the new fob isn’t paired to the car correctly? Essentially putting it in immobilization mode still.

 

[Nuje]

The car will still start for ~2sec even if the immobilizer is "active" and preventing the engine from running.
IOW, if it cranks and cranks and doesn't fire, that's not the immobilizer - that's one of "air, heat, fuel" missing (or showing up at the wrong time).

 

[Bakeman71]

Some images of the IP and how it can seem like you have it locked properly, but instead, have the pin in the "sucker hole".

Use a mirror to verify that you see a round hole when you have it locked at TDC.

So I double checked and I do in fact have the correct hole. I just removed the pulley to make sure

 

[Bakeman71]

The car will still start for ~2sec even if the immobilizer is "active" and preventing the engine from running.
IOW, if it cranks and cranks and doesn't fire, that's not the immobilizer - that's one of "air, heat, fuel" missing (or showing up at the wrong time).

That’s what’s not making any sense. Everything is aligned properly.

 

[Nuje]

Did you disconnect the fuel lines at any time in the process? Going back to an earlier post, we've all been fixated on the IP timing (because that's what you came to the table with)....but could be air in the lines.
Have you loosened the injector nuts at the injectors and bled them there?

 

[Bakeman71]

Did you disconnect the fuel lines at any time in the process? Going back to an earlier post, we've all been fixated on the IP timing (because that's what you came to the table with)....but could be air in the lines.
Have you loosened the injector nuts at the injectors and bled them there?

So I had to refill the IP because of swapping it to the new engine. I got a bunch of air out of that when filling it. I have bled the injectors and the nut on top and I’m getting good shots out of all of them while cranking. I’m almost wondering if the injectors are stuck **** or something at this point. Or is there any chance diesel goes bad like gas does after sitting for so long?

 

[Bakeman71]

I should also add that the timing kit I purchased had no pin or anything to hold the crank in place. All it had was the IP pin, the tensioner tool, and the cam plate for the slot where the vacuum pump goes.

 

[jokila]

I should also add that the timing kit I purchased had no pin or anything to hold the crank in place. All it had was the IP pin, the tensioner tool, and the cam plate for the slot where the vacuum pump goes.

It helps to have the crank tool but absolutely not required. If the crank is at TDC and the IP can be pinned ( I just look with my mirror because I know what to look for) it should start.

Looks like you gave more background to your story about getting the pump from another engine. You should double check the electical part of the pump. I would unplug and replug the IP connector to the harness. You should hear a faint click when the ignition is turned on.

When you turn on the ignition does the glowplug light come on? When cranking does the RPM move up to about 200ish or stays at zero?

 

[AndyBees]

Have you done a scan?

 

[Bakeman71]

Have you done a scan?

I have OBD reader and it shows nothing is wrong. No codes or anything.

 

[Bakeman71]

Well great news guys! I got it figured out and it’s running! Thank you all for the wisdom and knowledge. I love this forum because everyone is genuinely helpful.

 

[Bradm]

So what did you do?

 

[KLXD]

Yes, you need to contribute to the knowledge and wisdom on the site. Seriously.

 

[Nuje]

I got it figured out and it’s running! ....[crickets]....

Only thing worse than a perplexing issue where you never hear back from the original poster is the "I fixed it!" with no details.
Come on, @Bakeman71 - help out a future version of you.