Increasing blueish smoke, High oil consumption

[TDI Tinkerer]

Hey, so recently i checked the oil level of my '01 tdi jetta after the low oil light came on. To my horror, there was absolutely no oil showing up on the dipstick. None. I put in over 3 litres, and brought it up into the 'ok' level. That was MAYBE 2000 km ago. I checked again today and discovered that the oil level was significantly below the 'ok' mark. I have also experienced a fair bit of smoke on startup, but I had attributed that to the cold (average below -10 C, often -20 C) temperatures up here in Canada. Now, after doing a quick search, I'm hearing leaking valves, rings, or even talk of failing Turbo seals, Diesel runaways (which I now know how to combat) and Turbo replacements, costing just shy of $1000!

I'm a student, so this is not welcome news! I have owned the vehicle for 6 months, and haven't had issues really except I did replace the turbo actuator. So, I would like some help diagnosing the issue, as I don't have experience with turbos. I have heard that I need to check for oil in the lower Turbo pipe going to the intercooler, and if that's the case, I could have a runaway condition, or the leak could be on the other side, going directly into the exhaust. If anyone knows of a good right-up for diagnosing or is willing to walk me through the steps (I am fairly proficient with a wrench, I've worked a lot on my '79 f100)

As far as checking the compression goes, I've done it on my truck, but I am not sure how I'd go about doing it on a diesel... I'm used to just pulling the coil wire. I'd imagine that there is a solenoid somewhere that controls the fuel supply on my jetta that I'd have to unplug? Are there instructions for that too?
Also, i don't know that it's entirely related, but my EGR seems to be leaking oil. Also, I believe it's my oil cooler, that has oil residue covering it.

 

[sidvil]

If I was getting a puff of blue smoke on start up; the first place I'd look is the turbo for shaft play. pull the pass wheel off and then take the clamp and hose off the turbo. play with the turbo blades and see how tight they are; if they are loose and or oily then you know what needs to be done.

also oil in the inner cooler isn't always a runaway situation. If there is just a little bit of oil then that could come from the egr. What others are talking about is a inner cooler full of oil which would make it pretty hard to start if that was the case.

start with easy and cheap

 

[TDI Tinkerer]

If I was getting a puff of blue smoke on start up; the first place I'd look is the turbo for shaft play. pull the pass wheel off and then take the clamp and hose off the turbo. play with the turbo blades and see how tight they are; if they are loose and or oily then you know what needs to be done.

also oil in the inner cooler isn't always a runaway situation. If there is just a little bit of oil then that could come from the egr. What others are talking about is a inner cooler full of oil which would make it pretty hard to start if that was the case.

start with easy and cheap

Ok, so is that something that i do from underneath or up top? Also, what is the pass wheel? and I'm sorry, but I really don't know know much about a turbo. So, if the turbo blades have any play side to side, or up and down, or can twist a bit, then the turbo needs replacement? Yes, about the intercooler, I understand that a bit of oil mist is OK, but half a litre is not.

And yes, that's kind of my motto Easy and cheap! That's why I start with here, it's the best place to start!

 

[sidvil]

pull the passenger wheel and you'll see the inner cooler piping running to the turbo. take the clamp off the turbo and pull the pipping off of it. With the pipe off you'll see a fan blade; take your finger and move it around if it has a lot of play up down all around then you have bad turbo bearings and you should replace the turbo or rebuild it. The turbo is located at the bottom of the engine off the exhaust manifold. While down there I would replace the hose that goes to the turbo actuator. The rubber hose gets old and cracked over time and can lead to turbo leaks. cheap hose that can be bought at napa or any parts store

 

[TDI Tinkerer]

pull the passenger wheel and you'll see the inner cooler piping running to the turbo. take the clamp off the turbo and pull the pipping off of it. With the pipe off you'll see a fan blade; take your finger and move it around if it has a lot of play up down all around then you have bad turbo bearings and you should replace the turbo or rebuild it. The turbo is located at the bottom of the engine off the exhaust manifold. While down there I would replace the hose that goes to the turbo actuator. The rubber hose gets old and cracked over time and can lead to turbo leaks. cheap hose that can be bought at napa or any parts store

Ok, thanks for the detailed explanation! I will do that as soon as I can! I think I'll have to get the garage cleared out so I can pull the car in, so that I don't lose my hands to frostbite.

 

[sidvil]

I hear ya about the cold weather lol it's -8F here in ny so cold the local salvage yard has put 25% sale on all parts to bring people in


Good luck with the repairs and when you get around to it, replace the egr with a race pipe. The race pipe will stop your intake manifold from clogging up. you can get the pipe off of ebay for 50 dollars shipped.

The final leak is on the oil color under the oil filter housing. To fix the oil leak there you just need to replace the gasket. DO this by draining the oil and removing the nut holding the oil color on.


hope that helps.

ps I like working on clean engines and I do this by going to the car wash and spraying the engine with foaming engine degreaser. My engine was way worse and the degreaser made the engine look like new. also get aluminum brightener (napa) and spray it on the engine metal and watch as it pulls all the crap out of the metal. I detail cars on the side and this stuff makes old engines look new again.

well that's enough coffee for me have a good one

 

[TDI Tinkerer]

Alright gents, did a quick bit of investigation today, the sun was beautiful, and melted most of the snowy junk off the car before I worked on it. Got the car up on jack stands, pulled the pipe from below, and couldn't really see the fan you were talking about. So, I decided to remove that pipe, down at the intercooler also, and take it out so I could access the pipe that goes in horizontally. Upon removal, the intercooler just belched all this oil all over the floor. Only got a bit on me, which is surprising... oil tends to be attracted to me... (I had a heck of a job replacing the throwout bearing on my '79 f-100... the transmission has no drain, and I managed to pour the entire contents of the gear oil on myself while bench-pressing it to remove it.... not a fun job. ) Anyway, I believe that this confirms turbo seals are gone, and I need to replace it. I don't like doing stuff without understanding it though, so if someone wouldn't mind explaining to me exactly how the oil is getting there, I would be very thankful

Pictures are of the oil that spilled out, and then of a picture looking into the intercooler.

 

[UhOh]

How many kms on this vehicle?

How much oil do you find under the car when it's parked? Looks like the oil cooler seals need to be replaced. Also, clean up around the EGR valve and look to see if you can tell whether the oil in that area is coming from the shaft seals or from the gasket/seal*.

* I had thought the shaft seals were bad on the EGR valve on my wife's car, but after swapping it out (with a clean one) I looked closer and saw that it was blowing oil between the valve and the manifold, the seal/gasket was bad!

If you tap the lower plastic housing under the intercooler (at lowest point) and make a drain port you can use it to periodically drain/check oil accumulations: just put a tap screw in the hole to seal back up. This should be SOP for every car! (reminder to self: have yet to do on MY car! done on wife's car). I got about 3 - 4 ounces from my wife's car (at about 145k miles): it smokes pretty good when it is first started cold; I'm keeping a close eye on it (oil level is down about halfway, but it's got 7k miles since last oil change, which was by the PO).

Story: I ran across a guy whose grandfather replaced his turbo, and once all back together and boosting well he blew his engine due to a runaway from oil having accumulated in the intercooler pipes.

 

[UhOh]

BTW - rejoice that that oil spilled on you rather than getting sucked into the engine and causing a runaway!

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

That's not really a lot of oil. If I saw that much I wouldn't automatically conclude the turbo is bad. And the oil cooler, EGR, and (maybe) valve cover leaks don't amount to the quantity of oil you're consuming either, IMO.

I'd first get an accurate measure of oil consumption. Pick a place to park the car, get the oil to the top level on the dipstick, and then check it consistently (first thing in the AM, after it sits 10 minutes after driving...it doesn't really matter as long as you do the same thing every time). See how long it takes to use a liter. If it's 1,600 KM or less, then you have a problem. You could also fix the leaks in the meantime.

 

[russman]

The oil is most likely coming from the turbo oil seals and accumulating in your ic piping and cooler but also loosing oil from valve cover by the looks of it and leaking by the egr valve and oil cooler . Got some wrenching to do bud . Wouldn't worry about the turbo right away hit every thing else first and see if consumption is manageable and keep an eye on ic . And like uhoh said drill a hole in ic to easily drain by removing the screw periodically.

 

[AndyBees]

Story: I ran across a guy whose grandfather replaced his turbo, and once all back together and boosting well he blew his engine due to a runaway from oil having accumulated in the intercooler pipes.

Adds to my theory about what really causes a Run-away!

That's not really a lot of oil. If I saw that much I wouldn't automatically conclude the turbo is bad. And the oil cooler, EGR, and (maybe) valve cover leaks don't amount to the quantity of oil you're consuming either, IMO.

I'd first get an accurate measure of oil consumption. Pick a place to park the car, get the oil to the top level on the dipstick, and then check it consistently (first thing in the AM, after it sits 10 minutes after driving...it doesn't really matter as long as you do the same thing every time). See how long it takes to use a liter. If it's 1,600 KM or less, then you have a problem. You could also fix the leaks in the meantime.

I agree.........

I know it is cold and spring thaw will not be here for a few more weeks, but, until then, I'd make sure it does not run low on oil. In the meantime, do as IndigoBlueWagon has suggested.

Then, when warm weather gets here, pressure wash your engine! Make sure you cover the Alternator... the Voltage Regulator cannot take the high pressure.

Oil accumulation in various places can have an illusion affect. So, once the engine is clean, you can better understand what's going on.

Odds are, the seal is bad in the EGR assembly... not repairable!

Oil accumulates in the Intercooler from two sources, 1. Turbo seal leak on the Impeller side (new ones leak a bit, nature of the beast) and 2. The mist of oil that comes out of the Crank Case Vent system on the Valve cover (nature of the beast).

Doing a few strong RPMs (3200 to 3800 will do) as you go through the gears on a regular basis will keep the accumulation in the Intercooler to a minimum... I do about three or four strong runs per tank of fuel on my Jetta. The IC on the Vanagon is totally different... no accumulation due to design and set-up.

Lastly, I've seen that much oil pour out of an Intercooler ............... thousands of miles and years later, the engine is running just fine!

EDIT: If your engine is starting in -20c temps, I doubt you have a compression issue. Of course, if it fires-up and then has a rough idle for a long time and clouds of smoke, there could be one cylinder with low compression, or, it could be a bad GP on that cylinder! Point is, I doubt your engine has a compression issue!

 

[Abacus]

Just a few weeks ago my brother lost the turbo in his B4 but we caught it before a runaway. He drained the intercooler and removed all the IC piping and wiped it out. To prime the new (used) turbo, I disconnected the IP wiring and he cranked it over, and I'll be damned if it didn't start after the first few times canking (three 10 second successions to prime the turbo line). I figure it must have started (rough) due to the oil vapors still present in the IC.

 

[AndyBees]

But, wouldn't cranking the engine to prime the Turbo oil feed line have purged the cylinders of any such vapors? ........

 

[Abacus]

That's why I'm thinking it was vapors from the IC.

 

[TDI Tinkerer]

That's not really a lot of oil. If I saw that much I wouldn't automatically conclude the turbo is bad. And the oil cooler, EGR, and (maybe) valve cover leaks don't amount to the quantity of oil you're consuming either, IMO.

I'd first get an accurate measure of oil consumption. Pick a place to park the car, get the oil to the top level on the dipstick, and then check it consistently (first thing in the AM, after it sits 10 minutes after driving...it doesn't really matter as long as you do the same thing every time). See how long it takes to use a liter. If it's 1,600 KM or less, then you have a problem. You could also fix the leaks in the meantime.

Ok, well thing is I had the intercooler pipe off to replace the turbo actuator about 5000 km's ago, and no oil poured out whatsoever, but I didn't look into the intercooler. the previous owner also drove it like a baby all the time, to get the highest fuel mileage he could, so it's not like he got rid of the oil in the intercooler. Isn't it strange though that it accumulated that quickly???

On an unrelated note, does the EGR seals leaking have any negative effect on the operation of the engine?

Also, I don't really need the car to badly right now, so i've decided to keep it off the road until I get these issues sorted out. I never see any oil on the driveway, and there really isn't a lot coming out of the EGR and Valve cover.

I think that my plan of action is going to be remove the turbo to closely investigate it, and decide if I need a replacement or not, and while I'm doing that I'll also do the valve cover seal and oil cooler seal. Does all that make sense?

Thanks guys.

 

[Abacus]

Ok, well thing is I had the intercooler pipe off to replace the turbo actuator about 5000 km's ago, and no oil poured out whatsoever, but I didn't look into the intercooler. the previous owner also drove it like a baby all the time, to get the highest fuel mileage he could, so it's not like he got rid of the oil in the intercooler. Isn't it strange though that it accumulated that quickly???

Classic turbo failure.

 

[turbocharged798]

That's a LOT of oil. Safe bet to say that turbo is toast or there is massive CCV blowby for some reason

 

[TDI_G]

Pull the turbo inlet pipe (pipe coming from the air filter into the turbo). Check for movement in the impeller. A little side to side movement is ok (as long as it isn't touching the housing). Any in and out movement is bad and turbo is shot.

 

[TDI Tinkerer]

Pull the turbo inlet pipe (pipe coming from the air filter into the turbo). Check for movement in the impeller. A little side to side movement is ok (as long as it isn't touching the housing). Any in and out movement is bad and turbo is shot.

Just would like to clarify the differences between side to side and in and out.

From looking at the turbo, top down from the front of the car, is side to side movement going to be towards the front and rear of the car, and in and out to the left and right of the car?

 

[LNXGUY]

You got it.

 

[TDI Tinkerer]

You got it.

Alright. Well, I'll have a look at that tonight. Thanks!

And a general question for everyone who may see this... I am on a pretty tight budget, and so I would like to just do a stock replacement turbo if I need one, cause I believe that will be the cheapest. I see on Rock Auto that I can get a NEW Rotomaster branded turbo (built in the USA, but can't find much info on them) for 606 CAD. That's half the price of the Garrett Turbo's I've found on Kerma and IDparts afte the conversion rate. Is this turbo going to be ok? I just want the car to be reliable. I don't think I want to go the remanufactured route, I want to know it's good and new.

 

[turbocharged798]

I would go with the Mahle turbo that IDparts sells. I think its like $699 IIRC and its made in Canada. Its supposed to be a really good turbo.

 

[TDI Tinkerer]

I would go with the Mahle turbo that IDparts sells. I think its like $699 IIRC and its made in Canada. Its supposed to be a really good turbo.

looked that one up... it's $779 USD, $967 CAD. So, it's a good turbo? Good, reputable vendor? is it just as good as a Garrett?

 

[TDI Tinkerer]

Well, just made a couple calls. There's an Import auto parts store near me, and I figured I'd call the CarQuest just for the heck of it. Import auto has a Rebuild from a company in Montreal for $600 plus tax, 6 month warranty, and a Garrett NEW, for $1100 plus tax, I'm assuming the standard 12 month warranty. CarQuest told me to get a part number and call back

So, unless anyone has any different options, I see these as my options for a new turbo
1. Rotomaster, NEW, $606 CAD
2. Garrett, NEW, $1243 CAD
3. Mahle, NEW, $967 CAD
4. Unknown, Rebuild, $678 CAD

All those prices are after tax (I think there's not tax if I order things from the states)

So, if I am going to go budget way, I'd go with the NEW Rotomaster vs. The Unknown Rebuild I think, right?

And, if I'm going to go all out, I'd go with the Mahle I think. Made in Canada, Good reputation. Does that make sense?

Any input here? I guess the price difference is almost $400, which is a fair bit, but it might be worth it. I'd appreciate input on this, I have no experience with the various turbocharger brands. Thanks!

 

[TDI_G]

Try reaching out to Buzzken. I imagine he might be able to direct you to some sources for reasonably priced turbos. I would think you could get parts cheaper up there.

 

[TDI Tinkerer]

Try reaching out to Buzzken. I imagine he might be able to direct you to some sources for reasonably priced turbos. I would think you could get parts cheaper up there.

Ok, thanks. I will do.

 

[TDI_G]

You can also check with user Frans http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=434593

 

[turbocharged798]

looked that one up... it's $779 USD, $967 CAD. So, it's a good turbo? Good, reputable vendor? is it just as good as a Garrett?

Wow, I guess it jumped up. I swear it was $699 a few weeks ago. Great deal at that price.

Honestly, you could try and rebuild your current turbo if its not too messed up. The big thing is you have to mark the impeller and compressor to keep the orientation the same as they are assembly balanced. Otherwise you have to have it VSR balanced which costs $$$

Not too sold on the rotomaster turbo. Sounds like a marked up china turbo.

 

[TDI Tinkerer]

Wow, I guess it jumped up. I swear it was $699 a few weeks ago. Great deal at that price.

Honestly, you could try and rebuild your current turbo if its not too messed up. The big thing is you have to mark the impeller and compressor to keep the orientation the same as they are assembly balanced. Otherwise you have to have it VSR balanced which costs $$$

Not too sold on the rotomaster turbo. Sounds like a marked up china turbo.

Hey, the price was just changed back this evening I guess. It says $699 now.
Yeah, I'm going to take it out and have a look. Ok. well, for $350 more than the rotomaster I could have the Mahl, which is a reputable turbo. So, I'd probably go for it.