Increased Iron in oil

[Zip tie]

I've had a couple oil tests done by Blackstone Labs on my 04' BEW TDI with 168,000. On the last test results the Iron levels doubled from the previous test. In the results write up they recommend checking the cam and lifters for wear/failure.
I pulled the valve cover yesterday and the cam and lifters looked ok to me. The cam lobes didn't have abnormal wear marks and the lifters didn't look worn at all.
Would the increased Iron be from failing bearings?

 

[KLXD]

Rings? Seems to me you'd need a lot of wear before bearings start shedding iron.

 

[Genesis]

If its cylinder wall wear usually chromium will be high too (rings); if its primary (e.g. main) bearings you usually see copper as well. Likely the cam/lifters. Might not be, but if there's nothing else out of range (e.g. no increase in silicates, which is dirt) then that'd be my expectation. Verrrry difficult to see the surface of the lifters where the cam rides with the cam in the cylinder head....

 

[Mongler98]

If its iron... it's probably oil pump or gears or chain that drive the pump.
Lifters, cam, ect all have high nickle chromium and what not in them that make them harder.
I'm not a guru kn this but if it was just iron I would want to know what size it was.
Next time filter your oil though a coffee filter after draining. Thin with some gas. Do the same with opening the oil filter.
Big chunks bs flakes vs pixy dust.
Imo more data must be collected if it's just iron.

 

[Zip tie]

This is what Blackstone said about the results.

DAN: Iron went up in a big way, and 135 ppm is high enough to show poor wear. Since other metals are in
good standing, it looks like iron is primarily from a steel/steel interface, such as the cam/lifters. Seek
inspection if you notice a ticking sound. Silicon decreased quite a bit, and with 14 ppm not being terribly
high, we wouldn't assume an air filtration issue is the reason for iron going up. No coolant or fuel showed
up, and the oil kept a viscosity in the expected range. Pull another sample in about 4,000 miles. Hopefully a
shorter oil run helps bring the iron level down.

elements in parts per million 165,000, 155,000
ALUMINUM - 6, 5
CHROMIUM - 3, 2
IRON - 135, 71
COPPER - 3, 4
LEAD - 1, 1
TIN - 2, 1
MOLYBDENUM - 1, 1
NICKEL - 1, 0
MANGANESE - 2, 1
SILVER - 0, 0
TITANIUM - 0, 1
POTASSIUM - 1, 4
BORON - 54, 51
SILICON - 14, 30
SODIUM - 9, 7
CALCIUM - 1960, 1661
MAGNESIUM - 19, 30
PHOSPHORUS - 769, 704
ZINC - 898, 800
BARIUM - 0, 0

I put the values with the biggest change in bold.

 

[Mozambiquer]

This is what Blackstone said about the results.

DAN: Iron went up in a big way, and 135 ppm is high enough to show poor wear. Since other metals are in
good standing, it looks like iron is primarily from a steel/steel interface, such as the cam/lifters. Seek
inspection if you notice a ticking sound. Silicon decreased quite a bit, and with 14 ppm not being terribly
high, we wouldn't assume an air filtration issue is the reason for iron going up. No coolant or fuel showed
up, and the oil kept a viscosity in the expected range. Pull another sample in about 4,000 miles. Hopefully a
shorter oil run helps bring the iron level down.

elements in parts per million 165,000, 155,000
ALUMINUM - 6, 5
CHROMIUM - 3, 2
IRON - 135, 71
COPPER - 3, 4
LEAD - 1, 1
TIN - 2, 1
MOLYBDENUM - 1, 1
NICKEL - 1, 0
MANGANESE - 2, 1
SILVER - 0, 0
TITANIUM - 0, 1
POTASSIUM - 1, 4
BORON - 54, 51
SILICON - 14, 30
SODIUM - 9, 7
CALCIUM - 1960, 1661
MAGNESIUM - 19, 30
PHOSPHORUS - 769, 704
ZINC - 898, 800
BARIUM - 0, 0

I put the values with the biggest change in bold.

Did you look closely at the lobes and see if they're getting sharp? First thing you'll notice is that the edges will become sharp and there won't be chamfer all the way around. Then flat spots will start to form.
Most often on a PD, seeing high iron is cam wear.

 

[Mongler98]

Yep. I'm going to place my best on cam / lifters.
The zink.... and silicon... but I have no idea so dont pay me attention!
Calcium? Wth

 

[Genesis]

Zinc and calcium are often in oil additive packages; they're unlikely to be involved. Silicon is dirt and its lower, so that's not the cause.

 

[Mongler98]

ah yes, i see. the bold threw me off.
the really only thing here out of wack is defiantly just iron.
im changing my vote to a gear or chain or oil pump kind of thing.
Really im only good for bumping this thread lol

 

[Zip tie]

I didn't see any sharp angles on the lobes. They all seemed to be a consistent shape. I will look again though, and take some pictures.
I just had the timing belt replaced about 15k ago. Can I just Zip Tie the timing belt to the cam before removal? I'm used to working on 80's Toyota 22r's and doing that.

 

[gforce1108]

I didn't see any sharp angles on the lobes. They all seemed to be a consistent shape. I will look again though, and take some pictures.
I just had the timing belt replaced about 15k ago. Can I just Zip Tie the timing belt to the cam before removal? I'm used to working on 80's Toyota 22r's and doing that.

There is quite a bit involved with the cam replacement on a BEW due to the injectors. You really want the correct timing tools (crank lock mainly - most sets come with the cam pin too).. You can find them online pretty cheap ($20 or so). You won't have to pull the motor mount though.

Lots of one time use hardware in there. I would really suggest getting the bentley manual to guide you.

 

[Mozambiquer]

I didn't see any sharp angles on the lobes. They all seemed to be a consistent shape. I will look again though, and take some pictures.
I just had the timing belt replaced about 15k ago. Can I just Zip Tie the timing belt to the cam before removal? I'm used to working on 80's Toyota 22r's and doing that.

My dad tried that when he replaced a cam... Ended up getting it one tooth off and it didn't work out well.
Get the cam and crank lock and you won't regret it.

 

[Genesis]

What @Mozambiquer said - and on these engines its somewhat more of a pain compared with the ALH because of the injectors. Note that the cam and lifters should always be replaced as a set; doing one but not the other is asking for trouble.

 

[Franko6]

With that kind of metallurgy, I'd think the cam and lifter damage would be very obvious. But what part of the story that is missing... If you have damaged cam and lifters, especially if the lifters are dished or even have holes, through them, the oil pump is worn out. All the metal from the lifters/ Cam get sucked through the oil pump and are now in your oil filter. If you check your oil filter for debris, I bet you find a bunch of metal.

If you holed a lifter, you better check the same valve stem for damage. If the cam beat the plunger in the lifter like a punch, the valve stem will be beaten round. In that case, the cylinder head comes off.

Before you get in worse, remove the cam and take a look at the cam followers.

Questions? Call.

 

[Franko6]

Btw: Check for a CRAP filter. The cheap Big Box store filters don't have good seals. Therefore, silicon. Usually, you can see dust coming around the filter seal. Same is true for fuel filters. The CRAP filters don't glue the base or end pleats.

 

[Zip tie]

I ordered the timing belt tools with the crank lock.
Since we have a celebrity guest (Franko6) joining the chat, I'd better do what I'm told and replace the cam, lifters, bearings, seal, and bolts. I was looking at the kit from Cascade German, any other recommendations?
And, Franko6, I bought the car with 142,000 on it and have only ever used Mann filters since.

 

[Zip tie]

I checked the cam again this morning and got a better view. I can't figure out how to post pictures, but there are scratches on the first lobe on the #1 cylinder and a tan area on the 3rd lobe on cylinder #2.
So...new cam it is.

 

[Franko6]

You know, we do quite a business in cams... Timing belts, too. Try emailing the cam pics.

 

[Zip tie]

Since I'm not replacing the timing belt, all I need to do to remove the belt is lock the crank and loosen the tensioner to pull the belt off the cam sprocket, correct?

 

[KLXD]

Realizing that the valve springs will put a torque on the cam when you tension the belt that is normally eliminated by letting the sprocket float, you should treat it as a new installation.

If one doesn't want to go through the correct procedure he should put a little CCW torque on the cam while winding up the tensioner to insure there is no slack in the belt between the cam and crank caused by the valve springs that the tensioner can't take up.

Remember, its function is to take up slack on the slack side of the belt between the crank and cam while it's running. Putting a little backwards torque on the cam while tensioning simulates the running condition.

 

[gforce1108]

Since I'm not replacing the timing belt, all I need to do to remove the belt is lock the crank and loosen the tensioner to pull the belt off the cam sprocket, correct?

If you are going to remove the cam, ideally you want the crank at 90 before TDC (all pistons at half height). No interference possible at that point. The cam will move while taking it out / reinstalling. Replace the cam, rotate it to TDC (#1 lobes up, cam pinned) then rotate the crank 90- CW to TDC and install crank lock. Follow timing belt install procedure from there.

 

[PakProtector]

With all due respect, I'd caution contemplating a cam job without just inserting those specific bits into the job of doing the timing belt. position the crank, and time the cam properly.
cheers,
Douglas