Increased Cranking Time When Starting

ksing44

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 13, 2010
Location
Southeast PA
TDI
2010 Golf TDI
My gas pedal thing seems to work sometimes and not others, so I tried a new thing. Instead of churning for lots of cycles, if I turn it off after 2 turns, then it seems it fires right up on the first restart. That also doesn't always work, but mostly it does. I don't like letting it churn. I like when it fires right up as usual!
 
Last edited:

06bluebeetletdi

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 30, 2012
Location
Middlesex, NC
TDI
'14 Passat TDI SEL and '13 Beetle TDI
I thought i was crazy but both of my TDIs intermittently have slow starts, the bug more than the passat. I do alternate driving them, so each one sits a couple days in a row each week. Bug has 86,500 (25,500 since the fix) Passat has 79,600 (29,600 since fix). I use diesel from mobil. Bug’s fuel filter changed at 80k, passat at 70k.
 

prsa01

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 16, 2000
Location
mpls,mn usa
TDI
14 jsw 6m, 96 B4v, miss my a4 :(
WAY to early to speculate, but results so far

Too many variables to say anything definitive but have not had the increased crank time on first start of day since this install.

By the very nature of an intermittent issue I won't be able to say if it actually made a difference for a long time or until the car acts up again.

Possible addtnl factors:
o car is only used 3 - 4 times a week so not a great deal of data points over time
o. It is now cold here so computer might be changing all kinds of things on "cold" starts
o. had not had symptom since using ksing44 "2 pump" start so very possible symptom had gone away prior to install

With those (and probably more) caveats, I had been getting the extended crank time first start of day pretty consistently over the summer prior to using the 2 pump start. Still have no reason to believe the intake fix has any impact on this issue and the change is likely coincidental.

Will report if/when symptom returns.


I have no reason to believe this will make a difference but installed it as a cheap preventative for the p2015 error code issue. Curious if anyone who has installed it is also getting the extended starting cranks 1st start of the day.

https://www.dieselgeek.com/collecti...-rail-tdi-with-aluminum-manifold-03l-129-711e

I will report in the unlikely event it makes a difference. Interestingly, Ksing44's 2 gas pedal pump while key on before cranking does seem to make a difference for my car. Makes no sense to me but just glad he mentioned it and it seems to have made a difference so far in my case.
 

06bluebeetletdi

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 30, 2012
Location
Middlesex, NC
TDI
'14 Passat TDI SEL and '13 Beetle TDI
It’s getting colder here in NC, this week I’ve used the glow plugs everyday, no long starts. I will keep watching them.
 

ksing44

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 13, 2010
Location
Southeast PA
TDI
2010 Golf TDI
It’s getting colder here in NC, this week I’ve used the glow plugs everyday, no long starts. I will keep watching them.
Me too! I waited a while to comment because I didn't want to speak too soon or jinx myself, but knock on wood for a few weeks now my car has been starting on first turn even on the first start of the day! Like you, I think the improvement corresponds to the colder temperatures we've been experiencing in my area.

At the TDIClub FAQ page I also read this, "The modified oil circuit provides faster oil pressure build up, particularly during cold starts." So maybe the ECU sensing cold could affect the oil pressure, which was also proposed as a reason for the slow first starts of the day.
TDIClub TDIFAQ

The bottom line, at least for the last few weeks, colder weather seems to be good for starting my car on the first start of the day!
 
Last edited:

JELLOWSUBMARINE

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 3, 2014
Location
yes
TDI
2011 Jetta Sportwagen, 6M, red/tan, navi, pano, 83 5m diesel pickup, 82 p/u trailer,.04 5.5 TDI Passat wagon (gone), 80,81,82 diesel p/u (gone), 80,82 sportruck (gone), 59 passthru bus (long gone), 79&87 westy (gone), 57 baja bug (long gone), 73 914
We had increased cranks times on a cold start in the fall about a year ago. 2009 Jetta. Within a couple weeks CEL came on. It was a glow plug code. Don't recall the code. Took to dealer and was covered under the dieselgate warranty.They replaced 1 glow plug.

6 months later CEL came back on. This time related to glow plugs again. Took to dealer. They looked it over and claimed nothing was wrong. Been fine ever since.
Exactly my story. My generic OBDII scanner would only pull codes one time out of the four or five times Ive turned the CEL off. The retreived one time codes were p13ce & p13do both #1 glow plug. Issue. Got aa $50 CPO warrenty date with the dealer. The delayed 1st start just started with cooler weather. Makes sense perameters searching new conditions to complicate or compound things. Car runs great otherwise and just a note I changed the O.E.? battery the morning after I bought it (2/19 @ 69k)

Too many variables to say anything definitive but have not had the increased crank time on first start of day since this install.
By the very nature of an intermittent issue I won't be able to say if it actually made a difference for a long time or until the car acts up again.
Possible addtnl factors:
o car is only used 3 - 4 times a week so not a great deal of data points over time
o. It is now cold here so computer might be changing all kinds of things on "cold" starts
o. had not had symptom since using ksing44 "2 pump" start so very possible symptom had gone away prior to install
With those (and probably more) caveats, I had been getting the extended crank time first start of day pretty consistently over the summer prior to using the 2 pump start. Still have no reason to believe the intake fix has any impact on this issue and the change is likely coincidental.
Will report if/when symptom returns.
Ill reread this thread but first read I didnt see if the cjaa has the VVT like the 288
Ill try the 2 pump thing next cold start
 
Last edited:

JELLOWSUBMARINE

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 3, 2014
Location
yes
TDI
2011 Jetta Sportwagen, 6M, red/tan, navi, pano, 83 5m diesel pickup, 82 p/u trailer,.04 5.5 TDI Passat wagon (gone), 80,81,82 diesel p/u (gone), 80,82 sportruck (gone), 59 passthru bus (long gone), 79&87 westy (gone), 57 baja bug (long gone), 73 914
Our motors do not have the same VVT system; this applies to the EA288
So, if it isn't vvt on our models does anyone have an idea what it is? Mine is pretty consistent first start of the day but never on other starts.
Fuel leaching back to tank? Is there something that is supposed to prevent that?
Only diagnostic idea I have is to run the in-tank fuel pump with vcds before first start of day to see if that makes a difference. My understanding is that the pump doesn't run at key-on anymore.
O.K., got it VVT but diferent (2011 JSW cjaa mkvi vrs ea288 m7.) . I wonder how simular and if it can still be problematic. I recently sold my V70 with the typical to them, restricted VVT oil passage. Seems these VVT oil passages are quite hyper seensitive.
 

Gonx

Member
Joined
May 11, 2022
Location
Wisconsin, USA
TDI
2011 VW Jetta SportWagen TDI/DSG
Having the same problem around 60-70 degree outside temps. Did you ever solve this issue? or have some sort of solution?
 

Jaxon

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 15, 2006
Location
Saskatchewan, Canada
Having the same problem around 60-70 degree outside temps. Did you ever solve this issue? or have some sort of solution?
Call it a solution, or call it a band aid - I had Malone change my tune to make the glow plugs come on for 5 seconds regardless of the ambient temperature, car always started fine afterwards. Didn't find the reason for the hard starting, but it made the car always start fine... until I hit a deer and totaled it off.
 

Gonx

Member
Joined
May 11, 2022
Location
Wisconsin, USA
TDI
2011 VW Jetta SportWagen TDI/DSG
Call it a solution, or call it a band aid - I had Malone change my tune to make the glow plugs come on for 5 seconds regardless of the ambient temperature, car always started fine afterwards. Didn't find the reason for the hard starting, but it made the car always start fine... until I hit a deer and totaled it off.
Man I’m happy to see people still are responsive in the forums :). Gunna delete here soon and that idea crossed my mind “can malone make my glow plugs light ALL the time?” You answered that for me. I will be having them do this when I delete. And solve the problem. Sorry to here about the deer… Thanks man!
 

Jaxon

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 15, 2006
Location
Saskatchewan, Canada
Man I’m happy to see people still are responsive in the forums :). Gunna delete here soon and that idea crossed my mind “can malone make my glow plugs light ALL the time?” You answered that for me. I will be having them do this when I delete. And solve the problem. Sorry to here about the deer… Thanks man!
Yeah unfortunately Facebook all but killed the forums, and they have nowhere near the ability to hold and store the information like forums do. I'm not too upset about the deer (aside from killing the poor guy), the car had 337,000 on it and was showing its age, I replaced it with the same thing but with 135K on it and so far it's been great aside from already needing a DMF at 165K.
 

Gonx

Member
Joined
May 11, 2022
Location
Wisconsin, USA
TDI
2011 VW Jetta SportWagen TDI/DSG
Yeah unfortunately Facebook all but killed the forums, and they have nowhere near the ability to hold and store the information like forums do. I'm not too upset about the deer (aside from killing the poor guy), the car had 337,000 on it and was showing its age, I replaced it with the same thing but with 135K on it and so far it's been great aside from already needing a DMF at 165K.
Yeah it also seems like there are alot more uneducated people on the FB groups sadly. :LOL: I need a DMF now... at 130k making noise since I got it in winter but now that its warming up no more noise but I know its on its way out. Just contacted Malone to see what they can do for me. 337k hope i can make it there! Thanks again man! You're a life saver!
 

jesus_man

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 9, 2005
Location
North Dakota
TDI
2005 Jetta (gone), 2002 Passat (gone), 2009 JSW (VW bought), 2010 JSW
So is the consensus bad or poor performing glow plugs?

Oddly, I have ran across this intermittently too. There was one time where it was nearly everyday on the first start. Then I changed the fuel filter and problem went away. So my suspicion was that one of the o-rings in the filter housing may have been leaking enough to allow the system to go back to 0 psi. So, then on startup, the pumps hadn't had time get up to full pressure until a second or three into cranking.

I do very occasionally get a hard-start, like once every few months, but the only time it was consistent was in the above situation.

Even on any modern EFI gas vehicle, I will turn the key for a couple seconds before cranking over the engine. That allows the electric pumps to prime.
 

Gonx

Member
Joined
May 11, 2022
Location
Wisconsin, USA
TDI
2011 VW Jetta SportWagen TDI/DSG
So is the consensus bad or poor performing glow plugs?

Oddly, I have ran across this intermittently too. There was one time where it was nearly everyday on the first start. Then I changed the fuel filter and problem went away. So my suspicion was that one of the o-rings in the filter housing may have been leaking enough to allow the system to go back to 0 psi. So, then on startup, the pumps hadn't had time get up to full pressure until a second or three into cranking.

I do very occasionally get a hard-start, like once every few months, but the only time it was consistent was in the above situation.

Even on any modern EFI gas vehicle, I will turn the key for a couple seconds before cranking over the engine. That allows the electric pumps to prime.
That's a very good question, Weird part is my car started fine all winter at 30F at -10F so for my glow plugs to be weak I do not understand why they worked fine all winter and are now just starting to have issues. I really do not think mine is a fueling issue. Also my fuel filter has 3k miles on it but that doesn't mean the o ring is seated properly, maybe ill throw a new one in since they are pretty cheap. From my understanding these cars do not prime when the key turns they is suppose to always have pressure. Turning the key does nothing in the case if fuel delivery. In my case I really do think its the GP not heating enough in this 50-60 degree weather. Cylinder want more heat but the GP cycle is to short to provide the heat. If I cycle my plugs twice I don't have the issue.
 

ksing44

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 13, 2010
Location
Southeast PA
TDI
2010 Golf TDI
For me it definitely seems to be outside temperature related. It fires right up in cold weather. I think it's an oil pressure thing as mentioned previously. When it gets warm, instead of churning for lots of cycles, if I turn it off after a couple of turns it seems it fires right up on the first restart. I don't like letting it churn. I like when it fires right up as usual!
 

Gonx

Member
Joined
May 11, 2022
Location
Wisconsin, USA
TDI
2011 VW Jetta SportWagen TDI/DSG
For me it definitely seems to be outside temperature related. It fires right up in cold weather. I think it's an oil pressure thing as mentioned previously. When it gets warm, instead of churning for lots of cycles, if I turn it off after a couple of turns it seems it fires right up on the first restart. I don't like letting it churn. I like when it fires right up as usual!
Do you light the glow plugs again when you go for it the second time. Will try it out. mine cranks for like 3 seconds at the max so it isnt horrible.
 

jesus_man

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 9, 2005
Location
North Dakota
TDI
2005 Jetta (gone), 2002 Passat (gone), 2009 JSW (VW bought), 2010 JSW
Yes, everytime you cycle the key on-off it will start the glow plug warming process over. On really cold days if I forgot to plug in, I will turn the key on for 15-20 seconds, then off. Then on again for 15-20 before I try to crank the engine over.
 

Golfer12

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 10, 2018
Location
SE Michigan
TDI
11 jsw tdi
I am having the same problem
I'm planning on malone tune in the near future so we will see if the problem goes away and I will request the glow plug mod that makes sense
 

ksing44

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 13, 2010
Location
Southeast PA
TDI
2010 Golf TDI
Do you light the glow plugs again when you go for it the second time. Will try it out. mine cranks for like 3 seconds at the max so it isnt horrible.
Yes, everytime you cycle the key on-off it will start the glow plug warming process over. On really cold days if I forgot to plug in, I will turn the key on for 15-20 seconds, then off. Then on again for 15-20 before I try to crank the engine over.
I don't think it's the glow plugs. If it were, then just cycling the key a few times, without any cranking, should do the trick. I don't think that works. Mine also starts just fine when it's cold. It should be worse in the cold if it was the glow plugs. Mine does it as the weather gets warmer and it does it most of the time when the weather gets hot. But the brief churn, then off and a restart, that seems to do the trick in the warm weather.

If it starts to churn, just stop. Then restart and I bet it fires right up like always. At least that seems to work the best and most reliably for me so far.
 

Golfer12

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 10, 2018
Location
SE Michigan
TDI
11 jsw tdi
My battery was going bad hit or miss replaced with new one and no more problems with starting
Very weird but problem solved for me anyway
 
Top