In the middle of ALH timing belt questions....

[ccaissie]

Going well, couple of questions:
1. The lower engine mount was a chore to remove...only after I pulled out all the studs, tensioners, water pump, etc could I drop it out the bottom and free the belt. It certainly would not come out the top with all the gingerbread still in there.....

So when I put it all back together, am I faced with a complex install of that lower mount/ belt and trying to install studs with the motor mount back up in there? If I was the smartest most experienced mechanic, what would I do?

2. Why pull the camshaft sprocket? Is it that hard to mount the belt with the camsprocket on?

Any info would be appreciated. This job is a bit more involved than my 99.5 gasser.....but will go well after a few little bits....

 

[Mozambiquer]

Going well, couple of questions:
1. The lower engine mount was a chore to remove...only after I pulled out all the studs, tensioners, water pump, etc could I drop it out the bottom and free the belt. It certainly would not come out the top with all the gingerbread still in there.....

So when I put it all back together, am I faced with a complex install of that lower mount/ belt and trying to install studs with the motor mount back up in there? If I was the smartest most experienced mechanic, what would I do?

2. Why pull the camshaft sprocket? Is it that hard to mount the belt with the camsprocket on?

Any info would be appreciated. This job is a bit more involved than my 99.5 gasser.....but will go well after a few little bits....

You need to pull the cam.pulley because you can't get the timing correctly lined up without pulling it. The cam to gear is only taper fit. So you lock the cam and install the belt so the cam sprocket can slip, then when you get it set then you tighten it down.
The front mount is always fun, I always raised and lowered the engine a few times to get it finangled in there.

 

[Vince Waldon]

Raising the engine up a bunch is probably the secret to dealing with the engine mount, and I no longer try to remove it from the engine bay... I just get it out of the way to one side and thread the new belt around it when the time comes.

And yes, I find it easier to pull off the old belt and reinstall the new one by way of the removing/reinstalling the cam sprocket, and as above you have to break it free regardless to correctly tension the new belt, might as well take advantage.

 

[ccaissie]

Aha! I wondered about there being a keyway on the cam, (as in most other engines in the world)...hence the need for the proper torque to secure it. I guess it doesn't go together EXACTLY the way it was in the factory...even with the locks...

Will presevere...yes to the lift/drop to make it fit.....

 

[ccaissie]

All good. What would I do without this Forum?
Love ya.

 

[Vince Waldon]

Yup, there's a keyway but no key... needs to be micro-adjustable.

The manual says 30 foot-lbs on the nut... most people agree this is dodgy and go 40 or 45, just to give the tapered fitting extra persuasion and confidence.

EDIT: foot-lbs not Nm

 

[Zak99b5]

I would do 40-45 ft lbs on the cam sprocket bolt.

Mount you just loosen and work around. It's a royal pain in the a$$. Case of, I can get to everything I need to easily with it out, but I can't put it back in with everything in place.

 

[BobnOH]

Yea the motor mounts are the most difficult bit . The rest is just meticulous.
You can search for threads with tips. There is a certain order of assembly that will make it a bit easier.
VW TDI Search Engine

 

[ccaissie]

Oh yeah, not clear about the marks on the tensioner. I see diagrams that say to turn the tensioner until the marks line up, but i don't see the inner mark...just the outer one...will research further.

c

 

[ccaissie]

Reviewd videos of how those marks go, and when I tension mine, the inside mark doesn't quit reach the outer cast index. I've clearly twice turned the tensioner too far (it's a cam action right?) and still it doesn't make it to the mark. I've set it to max tension, tho the marks haven't lined up.

I'll bet I put the cam bolt on at about 65....I plan to build another engine and pull all these parts for it, assemble with new bolts. Glad that the cam looks perfect, I may use it in the new engine.

 

[csstevej]

Are you sure that the little tab on the back of the tensioner is in the square hole on the rear cover?
It should take about a half turn or a little more to get into the window on all the ones I’ve done.
And your turning it clockwise ?

 

[KLXD]

The cam sprocket is not hanging loose, sliding down the taper?

 

[mittzlepick]

Removing the mount completely is extra effort if motor is on a jack slide er forward or back and wedge it out of the way. Herms trick on the tensioner is paint to make the sweet spot easier to see. I think it was nail polish yellow and green? If tou need any timing tools let me know. And you can stop by the shop and we can set the timing precisely with my vagcom if you don't have that

 

[STDOUBT]

2. Why pull the camshaft sprocket?

Makes me think you haven't read through a how-to yet!

A4 Timing belt procedure

A4/MKIV Timing belt procedure

forums.tdiclub.com

May the fates smile upon you!

 

[fatmobile]

You did rotate the tensioner clockwise and not counter-clockwise right?
I know the video makes that pretty obvious but I had to ask.
Maybe some pictures or a video would help us see what is happening.

 

[ccaissie]

Contacted Kerma TDI where I purchased the kit. They are believing that my cogs are worn enough to not reach 100% tension. Suggest setting to the max and moving on.

 

[ccaissie]

Makes me think you haven't read through a how-to yet!

A4 Timing belt procedure

A4/MKIV Timing belt procedure

forums.tdiclub.com

May the fates smile upon you!

Yes, the tutorials say to release it, but not why. Most Cam/ Sprockets ,Shafts I have worked with MACK, Cummins, Caterpillar, Enterprise Nordberg, EMDFairbanks-Morse GM, Ford Renault...yada yada are keyed.

I did watch tutorials...several.
Going well, and thanks for your concern.

 

[dieseldonato]

Yes, the tutorials say to release it, but not why. Most Cam/ Sprockets ,Shafts I have worked with MACK, Cummins, Caterpillar, Enterprise Nordberg, EMDFairbanks-Morse GM, Ford Renault...yada yada are keyed.

I did watch tutorials...several.
Going well, and thanks for your concern.

If your used to heavy equipment and truck engines (like me) there's a steep learning curve with these little buggers I've found. Releasing the cam gear after it's locked let's you tension the belt properly then lock the gear back onto the cam and everything should be in time correctly.
Gear drives are so much easier..... line the timing dots up and move on with life, lol.

 

[Abacus]

Contacted Kerma TDI where I purchased the kit. They are believing that my cogs are worn enough to not reach 100% tension. Suggest setting to the max and moving on.

Yeah, I'm not a fan of Kerma because of stuff like this, which they've done often, there is clearly something not right. I'd ignore what they say and figure the issue out. Nothing on these motors gets worn enough to just 'set it to the max and move on'.

And what 'cogs' are they referring to?

Mike (mittzlepick) is a great resource, knows his way around these engines, and is in your neck of the woods. I'm not doubting your ability but I'd recommend having him take a look before something gets destroyed because it was 'set to the max'. If I still lived there I'd have a look (used to live in Waldoboro and Nobleboro) but we moved to Arizona 2 years ago so I'm not around anymore

As to why the cam sprocket is removed (or released), it has to be loosened to equalize the belt tension across the 3 points. When the cam sprocket can float, the belt tension on both sides is the same, if it was fixed then it would be different and would equalize with belt revolutions, putting the timing off. The same with the IP sprocket, which gets loosened during tensioning. This way the only fixed point is the crank. The crank sprocket is removed during installation simply to make more room for the belt, it doesn't need to be and I've done it both ways, but do find putting the belt on the sprocket and then the sprocket on the cam easier. I usually pull the cam anyway to check the lifters and replace the cam seal.

Good luck and let us know what you find.

 

[ccaissie]

I know Mike in Union, Maine but I am with my car in Worcester, so looking is out. I had thought Kerma was the top source, but will get more info. I could put the old one on and see if that one is correct. Kerma did not say that the cogs were worn...that was my conjecture. I shall report back on how this all pans out.

I bought a cheap locking tool kit and had to pull the valve cover to lock the cam. The cam looks lovely.

 

[Nuje]

Yeah - "set it to max and move on"....not good advice.

Just to be sure you're looking at the right things, here are a couple images: unlike other tensioners where edges or arrows align, this one has a nubbin that needs to align with a slot.
Make sure you're rotating it clockwise.

 

[mittzlepick]

Maybe the tab on the tensioner isnt in all the way or got bent? Ive seen that.

 

[Nuje]

Oh yeah - good point. I've, too, had the tab that goes into the notch behind the tensioner be flattened so that it wouldn't grab in there. Make sure you use a mirror to ensure it's staying in place and to ensure that parallax isn't deceiving your perception of the alignment of the nubbin / slot.

 

[325_Guy]

Maybe the tab on the tensioner isnt in all the way or got bent? Ive seen that.

Seen that also- in my case it didn't have to be obnoxiously bent to cause a problem. It was bent back towards the tensioner just enough for the tab to slip out of it's slot on the block when I tried to tension it.

A little bendy-work with some pliers and all went well.

 

[ccaissie]

OKAY. The tab that engages into the square spot on the rear cover is good.
I'm rotating it clockwise to increase tension.
There is a notch that's supposed to line up with a nub. not two nubs, a notch and a nub.
The notch doesn't make it to the nub. I took a pic, and a video but can't upload the video, i don't know hoow to post the pic here it's IMG 5639 in the media library.

 

[ccaissie]

that's IMG_5629

 

[ccaissie]

 

[Nuje]

Yeah - there's something not right with that tensioner. As soon as you start rotating the wrench, the nub should be moving pretty much in sync with your rotation. That one is barely budging.
(Good camera work, btw!)

When you start moving the tensioner the two holes (and the arm of your tool) should be pointing at the firewall; yours looks to be pretty much straight up at the camshaft sprocket.

If you take a look at this image again, your starting point should be a well to the left of where that tool is (red dotted line), and finish a little to the right (green) - general ballpark of those lines.

 

[turbodieseldyke]

The crank sprocket is removed during installation simply to make more room for the belt

The cam sprocket...

 

[Nuje]

Try taking the tensioner off and rotating it around - see if there's a position you can get it to so that with the tab inserted in its place, the two-pin tool's starting position is oriented in the proper position (pointing in general direction of the firewall).