In an effort to clean up tdiclub and throw out the forum bashing

[shortysclimbin]

All,

As many of us have known and seen over the past year the amount of useless threads ending up in thread bashing has drastically reduced the productivity, sensor of common goals, chivary, and overall reasons for many members to be a part of the tdi performance section. I am in hopes changes can be made to bring fred's club back to the technical forum many of us used to visit some time ago. We need to move forward otherwise, we loose the advantage of our club over the many other forums out there on the net. below are a few ideas to change things for the better. Please see if they can be modified and or adopted to reflect change for the better of the club.

1) more moderators need to be adopted.

-Vendors will need to be required to moderate a forum that is not related to products they sell or locations that they sell them in. This will allow some of the higher knowledge members actually directly influence different sections of the club.

- Rules of Tdi club posting need to be followed and members should be able to be banned to a "read only status" for x amount of time if club rules are not followed. Person(s) banned 3x times will be asked to leave the community.

2) Club members need to step in and help build tdiclub up as a community.

- The tdi facts section should be re-written. The goal should be to have a beta copy ready for the next tdi fest for review. Teams for each area should be picked to split up the tasks.

-The tdi links section should be repaired. Many links are old dead or missing including vendors.

-Club events have vastly been lead by the same members. Many of us need to help step up and put in the extra tlc at these events to help keep TDI gtgs going. Do you part, bring food, money/ donations, good mind sets, and help clean up when needed. Also, step up and bring new people Tdi club is about spreading the word as much as it is about these great cars we drive.

3) Venders VS. Members

Many people hear on tdiclub play dual hats as vendors and tdi drivers. I think it is important that vendors should only post "product releases, data, etc." in the vendors section unless the data is being collected by an outside member of either party. forinstance, Kermas new nozzles, and RCs new chips info should be posted in the vendors section, But if newbie123 wants to post "dyno test with kermas new xyz, and RC new tune PX" that can go into the performance section. BUT Any posts like " kerma whats your xyz part like?" or "should I get x with y?" should go into the vendors area. Now If Kerma wants to post in the performance section "new turbo idea ARL with GT2256v combo for ABC modded engine" I encurage him or anyone to do that. Basically, I would like to see performance geared to the technical aspects of the designs, sizing, and combinations. Any LIVE data supporting true measurements should be posted in this area along with theory and other questions of the sort. This should not be the area where vendors keep there secrets and only a vendor service site. Many of the vendors ideas first came from ideas and items formed on the old boards.


Sorry all for the crap session. I just think we need to get back to using tdi club as a "think tank" and not a "**it tank". If we can do this I think many of us will be able to move forward and be able to push these blocks to higher output levels that seam unreachable at this point.

regards,

Kyle

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

Kyle, I agree that things could improve and that we'd all benefit. I encourage moderators to be more vigilant and to be less tolerant where needed. And I also agree that vendors should have set of guidelines that they must follow. If I've overstepped my bounds, I apologize. Truth is, I'm not that clear on what I can do and where I should or should not post, and I've never received any feedback that I've done somthing out of line. So I continue to use my judgment on what to post where.

I wholly support efforts to make our forums more informative and data-based. This will only help all of us, including vendors.

Kyle, thanks for stepping up on these issues, and I hope we see a response from Fred or the moderators.

 

[Beta]

I've been away for a while- damn is this all taken so seriously? Look for a nug under your seat vermont!

 

[oldpoopie]

I agree with most every point. I think much of the conflict has come from this emerging market. A few tdiclub members have turned passion into career, and lines between friendly posting in forums, and business marketing have been blurred. Friendships have suffered.

 

[VailPowder]

This is a great suggestion!

Let me know what we can do to help!

I'd be honored to be a mod, or participate in discussions on how to promote fairplay and improve the forum experience.

I'm down in Vegas for the SEMA show all this week, so next week would be better for me if people would like to chat, but anyone can PM or email me, and I will respond ASAP!


On a personal note, I just got the news from my middle daughter, she just made captain on her checkride a few minutes ago... and became the youngest airline captain in the history of her airline! So life if good!

And the Sox won the Series, so congrats to all the Red Sox fans!

 

[mrchill]

Thanks Kyle. Good suggesstions. If there is any need for help, let me know. Also, Congratulations Paul! Thats awesome!

 

[LNXGUY]

Women fly planes now?

/ducks


Paul, that's awesome news, you must be a proud Dad today

 

[VailPowder]

Thanks Chris! And LNX , not so much

Proud, for sure! It hard to believe that only 5 years ago, I was bringing her to Embry Riddle after graduating High School.

But, its way more than that!

I'm just so happy to see her happy, and so proud of herself and what she accomplished ...and knowing that her life and career are on a good path.

As a parent, nothing is better than seeing your children healthy and happy!

 

[LurkerMike]

Moderators need to have their Mod status identified under each and every one of their aliases.

Each "official warning" or "moderator action" needs to be clearly identified and the reasons explained for it by the moderator who took the action. Anonymous moderator action needs to end. In any community, people want to know who the police and the other officials are and they want accountability when they do wrong, become corrupt or "go bad". When that does not happen, you are living in fear like the victims of ******* or KGB tactics.

A "progressive discipline" approach should be tried where a poster is warned and barred from posting in the specific forum section for a short period of time if the infraction is not extreme. Sometimes a poster might need to give only a certain topic or section a break or cooling off period. Say I go too far espousing the virtues of XYZ brand oil and I profanely curse everyone who disagrees. But I'm really not being offensive in any other area. You know, positive reinforcement where you want to take a "potty training" approach and not punish me when I do a good job in the right place? Only correct me when and where I am not acting appropriately. If that fails, then abandon me at Walmart or at a national park or something... wasn't that what they did to Joe Dirt?

Some type of peer review and appeal system amongst the moderators should be established so that moderator decision making can be standardized and any moderator that can't get with the program can be eliminated.

I make these suggestions because a single bad moderator can do far more harm over time to a forum than a gaggle of trolls. Identifying each mod and their actions are the first step in insuring they too are being fair, impartial and even handed in the execution of their duties.

I don't know who the mods are. It requires more effort to look and see who they are than I care to invest. Mods should be leaders who lead by example and demonstration. Not some unseen hand that beats down someone who on occasion may not have seen it coming. And once banned or suspended, what appeal would the poster be able to make with anyone else administrating the forums? He is cut off from even logging in.

If you want a thriving community, you must have accountability at ALL levels and I believe the moderator system should be reviewed first.

 

[LurkerMike]

Let me expand on my take with moderators...

Moderators are the "Forum Police".

I think of them as traffic cops. They have two methods of "enforcing traffic laws":

1) Being visible. When most honest people see cops constantly patrolling the roads in an area, they will make a significant and vigilant effort to obey all of the traffic laws in that area and generally drive courteously. The cops will not be able to write many tickets this way, at least not to anyone who has ever passed this way before. The high visibility of the officers discourages drivers from doing things they could be ticketed for. Only hard core or really stupid criminals would continue breaking traffic laws in the presence of highly visible officers on constant patrol. And most good folks appreciate the police doing their job this way and show them great respect.

2) Hiding in the bushes. I have a problem with this method. Cops allow the public to think the roads are not being policed and the public begins to break the traffic laws incrementally until everyone is speeding and driving discourteously. Then once a month for a day or two, the cops play "fisherman" and they catch a few "trophies". The local coffers are filled with the revenue generated and the roads are again abandoned to "mob rule" until the next culling. In this system, a local business or individual with community standing can "tip off" the police about the need for enforcement in a certain area or with certain individuals. The cops will usually follow through as they are trained to "make quota" and they really don't care where. Many people come to dislike police for what they perceive as "dirty tactics" and entrapment.

If I am friend with a mod and you are not, I have the potential to have that mod place pressure or unfair punishment on you and you have no means of appeal or retaliation. That is what needs to be addressed and some means established to insure fairness, consistency and even handedness of the mods. I agree mods are needed just like cops are needed, but there must be a system of checks and balances.

 

[Stealth TDI]

I agree with most of the suggestions. But I REALLY support identifying vendors. For example, it seems KERMA has been posting a bit less these days. But Vail appears to have taken his place. No offense to Vail. But I was confused for a while regarding his identity when he was using "we" in discussions regarding KERMA's new products. I was compelled to wonder if he was an alias for another user (I still really don't know since I'm not a who's who of any sort of celebrities). I believe he and anyone else closely associated with a vendor should be identified as such. If their position does not warrant a "Registered Vendor" tag, then how about considering a "Vendor Associate" tag?

My reasoning? It doesn't matter how objectively one's posts are made. Things change when there's the potential for gain to be made. I tend to consider myself to be fairly objective with my reviews. I post the good and the bad, hopefully without slamming anyone. I get limited support from some vendors. I say "Thank You" by displaying their logos on my car at autocross events. But the moment I start working for one of them, my objectivity is subject to being skewed.

Long story short: We need to know who's associated with who. Someone who works so closely with a vendor may have biases toward one product and against another. We deserve to know about the potential for biases. Also, aliases need to go. It's deceptive and BS! Either post up as your true identity or don't post at all. I thought we got rid of the aliases during the Woodruff era and Upsolute wars.

 

[dok]

Everyone has there own opinion and perspective. What works for me may not work for another. I may even convince myself that it works even if it doesn't. Then again who wants to fess up and say they were wrong(some but not all)?
When I'm not working, have free time or on vacation, I check out the club. It has become apart of my new found hobby. Originally I bought a TDI due to increasing fuel prices, and the idea of alternative fuels was enticing. Then I met the club and boy did it open my eyes to the potential of these engines. To modify with increased mileage got my attention, and I decided to try and do most of the work myself.
So if Members feel it's important to bash one another because your ride is faster, better and smarter then mine, then fine. I really could care less. Besides it's more fun smokin' gassers and waving as fellow TDI'ers pass on by

 

[GoFaster]

On the page of forum categories, it already identifies who the moderator is. In reality, any moderator listed for any of the forum sections can take actions up to a certain point in any forum section. You can identify who the moderators are simply by looking at that page. It has been done this way because the reality is that there are only a small number of active moderators and WE NEED to be able to take certain actions anywhere on the forums that we see it. In the "old days" before this was implemented, there was often a big time delay between some other moderator spotting an action item, requesting the actual moderator to do something, and then the action happening. Big problem when someone's on holidays for a week.

You guys have NO IDEA how much stuff happens in the background. 90+% of my activity is spam control.

I am NOT paid to do this and I am NOT going to entertain any suggestion of something that will take more time on my part. Let's make that crystal clear right at the outset.

Another thing to make crystal clear is that this webpage belongs to Fred. Nobody else. He's the one who owns the forum software and makes this space available. It is HIS. It is not YOURS. You (and me) are guests here.

More moderators -> I agree, request already submitted. Nominations, anyone? Keep in mind that if you add moderators, everyone has their own interpretation of the rules. If you want absolutely consistent application of the rules then there can only be ONE moderator - but these forums have gotten so big that this is out of the question.

We already ban members for rules violations. The infuriating thing is when people play games to see where the lines in the sand are. Some people get very good at stopping juuuuust short of crossing the line. Rules cannot be black and white, they are always grey. No matter where the line is drawn, this behaviour will still happen. Personally, I do not want to have a situation where even the slightest transgression results in punishment. That implies the line has to have some room to move around. That implies that sometimes people are going to push it. It's going to happen. I am not going to transform myself into a dictator to try to stop it.

The facts, the links, and the TDIFAQ I agree are out of date. The request has been made many times for volunteers to update them. (FRED is the person you need to ultimately talk to. Not me.) Every time so far, when the person inquiring and complaining about this being out-of-date finds out how onerous the task it is to update it, it has not happened. I did the last update of the TDIFAQ. I am NOT doing the next one. It requires multiple interested knowledgeable people who do not have commercial interests in the final document. It's not easy to find a team like that. But once again, who's volunteering? Step up to the plate.

The point about organizing more GTG's and stuff is TOTALLY VALID. This is completely up to you folks, not us! The website space is available - go ahead and use it!

The situation with vendors has been under discussion for a long time. We rely on vendors to represent themselves in a responsible manner. IndigoBlue - No worries as far as I know. The vendor registration system was implemented so that we would have a recourse for someone who was NOT acting responsibly, in response to a specific issue in the past. Additionally, we want to have grounds for not allowing in every snake-oil salesmen, etc. Sometimes this has problems of its own. Someone comes on here promoting what we feel is snake oil, they get reminded that they have to register as a vendor, we exercise our option of not allowing them, they scream and yell. But the alternative is uncontrolled access, or no access whatsoever. Are you sure you want that? I don't think you do. Unfortunately, sometimes one needs to forget to check the fax machine, if you get my drift. Ideally we only want to have registered vendors who are honest businessmen, who people can trust, who have trustworthy products, who carry themselves responsibly on the forums, etc., and keep out others who don't meet those criteria. We're trying, but it's not a perfect world. Unfortunately some of those criteria are judgment calls - and we can and do exercise that judgment.

Regarding what sorts of posts about vendor producs go in which places ... Do you realize how impossible it is to get people to consistently post in forum sections that are even *remotely* relevant to what they are doing? Making complicated rules just makes things more complicated without solving anything.

Posts such as "Which chip should I get" or "which nozzles should I buy, brand X or brand Y" sound innocent enough but in reality are major problems especially when both brand X and brand Y are represented here. It is a no win situation - someone is going to be not happy with the outcome. How do you resolve this? Ban all discussion about which product is better than any other? That's not constructive. My own approach is to only start interfering and deleting and locking when the accusations and name calling begin. I HAVE NEVER come out and said Brand X is better than Brand Y for ANYthing. If there is any criticism of a given approach I try to do it based on facts rather than opinion, but not everyone does that ...

Regarding moderator actions, I can only speak for my own. Making actions identified - I already do that but only to the person involved in the infraction. This creates its own problems. Certain immature people go crying out that I only complained about them but not about someone else - not realizing or acknowledging that perhaps such actions WERE taken. Likewise with the progressive discpline thing ... I try to do this, but when immature crybabies are involved, they somehow find out that the other party wasn't punished as severely (because they acted maturely, edited their own posts, and apologized in private) and then I get blasted by the crybaby (who doesn't take adequate responsibility for their actions and as a result ends up with more actions taken against them). I am not referring to any specific incident here ... it happens ALL the time.

It is not easy to keep track of who has been warned how many times and by whom. We have a list of banned users but it has literally thousands of names on it - mostly spammers offering Nokia cell phones for sale. It is an impossible task to cross-check a given username against that list to see if there has been action taken before. In reality it is only a very small number of users who don't act maturely and cause problems for others. There are certain cases where "we know who you are" ...

"Peer review" etc between moderators implies a level of organization that simply does not exist and I see no way of making that realistically happen. The reality is that when a flame war is spotted then action needs to be taken NOW to stop it, and it's up to whoever spots it to do whatever seems appropriate at the time. This is not the Supreme Court of Canada.

Regarding unfair punishment / retaliation / appeals etc, you are making the situation out to be far more complex, labour-intensive and time-consuming than it can ever be in practice. I do not treat anyone any differently than anyone else. Some people have a way of acting immaturely on the internet, and they're going to get slammed and scream bloody murder. Others (most?) never have a problem.

Checks and balances - who's gonna do it. Where is the time and effort going to come from. How do you respond PROMPTLY when a situation that warrants moderation is happening NOW. Easy for someone to "say" we want this, that, the other thing. Quite another to actually make it happen.

 

[GoFaster]

Addressing something posted while I was typing. Stealth, I agree, it would be nice to see who is associated with whom, but how do we find out in the first place? This is not always forthcoming.

Ideally, people would be required to declare their conflicts of interest, as I have to do in the professional world. I don't know how to enforce it.

 

[Honeydew]

Suggestions:
All moderators should have "Administrator" below their names like BKMetz does. The way it is now makes it seem like various levels of moderators exist, which evidently is not the case.

Members like VailPowder should emulate IBW and put something in their sig clearly identifying their vendor affiliation.

 

[drkblujetta]

I have tried to help here, PM's to Fred didn't work for me.......(Understand he's busy)

So How can I help?

Who can I work with on this one?

The facts, the links, and the TDIFAQ I agree are out of date. The request has been made many times for volunteers to update them. (FRED is the person you need to ultimately talk to. Not me.) Every time so far, when the person inquiring and complaining about this being out-of-date finds out how onerous the task it is to update it, it has not happened. I did the last update of the TDIFAQ. I am NOT doing the next one. It requires multiple interested knowledgeable people who do not have commercial interests in the final document. It's not easy to find a team like that. But once again, who's volunteering? Step up to the plate.

 

[tomo366]

I agree with most every point. I think much of the conflict has come from this emerging market. A few tdiclub members have turned passion into career, and lines between friendly posting in forums, and business marketing have been blurred. Friendships have suffered.

I have been here from the very beginning........
And this is a very diverse group with strong personalities and ideas......
and money divides that
And some don't like there ideas challenged unfortunately, ie Upsolute.....
I don't think that you will change the way people are......

 

[BKmetz]

Actuially this would encourage more trolling than stop it....

.

 

[VeeDubTDI]

Excellent post, GoFaster!

 

[mrchill]

Where we (the non moderators) can start

Excellent. Now to business. If anyone is truly interested in updating the TdiFAQ, pm me. I will help to arrange it, but I need serious people who are willing to work.

 

[VailPowder]

Excellent. Now to business. If anyone is truly interested in updating the TdiFAQ, pm me. I will help to arrange it, but I need serious people who are willing to work.

PM sent!

 

[bam_bam_dip]

Where have I been all day???

I will simply subscribe to this thread at this time. Because I might not be the most rational thinker on this subject for the interim, but I'm pleased that others have noticed the same things I have noticed about the "leadership" of some of the mods around here. Not all, but a very small few seem to have a hidden agenda.

 

[Stealth TDI]

GoGaster,

Addressing something posted while I was typing. Stealth, I agree, it would be nice to see who is associated with whom, but how do we find out in the first place? This is not always forthcoming. Ideally, people would be required to declare their conflicts of interest, as I have to do in the professional world. I don't know how to enforce it.

I appreciate you recognizing this. How do we find out? I suppose a simple question would work. I considered sending Vail a PM to satisfy my own curiosity. Not being a moderator, I didn't feel my inquiry was warranted. It might have even been unwelcome depending on his personality (which I admit I know nothing about). Besides, as I said earlier, I'm not a who's who of personalities. For all I know, Vail has been posting for Charlie for months. Heck, he could even BE commonly known as Charlie and I wouldn't know it... making my question pretty dumb... A case in point? I didn't know Zippy Car was a lady until she organized a calendar last year. The same holds true of one lady who appeared in that calendar. I was unaware of her gender until she and I arranged for her to stop by my house to change oil since she is away from her home in New England. The same is true of yet another young lady who's A3 TDI was recently stolen (not sure if she was in the calendar). Yes, GASP! The HORROR! How could I miss something like THAT? But I just don't follow certain details until they surface on their own. I hope that makes me relatively unbiased. I know some folks prefer to operate without biases (reminds me of a woman I met who liked the fact I didn't know she was confined to a wheelchair until we met in person).

In Vail's case, from my perspective, he suddenly posted a bunch of new stuff from Charlie. Had I recognized him as a KERMA enthusiast or supporter before, then posting the new inventory would have pushed him passed that of a mere supporter and onto that of an associate. Likewise, I support Rocketchip and KERMA. But I do not market for them beyond simple plugs on my website and autocrosser... and the occasional e-mail. Back to the point: How do we enforce it? It's not really enforceable. But once someone crosses over to a point where they may gain from their posts (is Vail a KERMA employee who benefits from KERMA sales or is he an excited enthusiast who sharing some news?), it's time to pursue some sort of recognition so those who aren't close to names and associations can know who supports whom. I don't mean to pick on Vail and KERMA. Charlie's a great guy and I only bring this up as a recent point of interest. To be fair, it took me a while to figure out who supports JSP more than being an enthusiast. I'm STILL not sure, but I recognize some extra JSP-bias out of some posters who I feel should have some sort of tag under their screen name. Oh, the criteria for a "Vendor Associate" tag need not be as restrictive as the "Approved Vendor" tag. Perhaps e-mail confirmation from an Approved Vendor that identifies a given user as an employee or associate will suffice. But I think the "Vendor Associates" should be limited to those who are associated with APPROVED Vendors. Oh, if it's not already the case, our trusted mechanics could use some recognition as well.

That's enough out of me. I don't want anyone disadvantaged or inappropriately labelled. I'm just adding my two-cents for a more courteous environment. Even with the "thread-crapping," TDIClub.com is still TONS better than other car forums out there.

Scott

 

[VailPowder]

Stealth, I'm a co owner of kerma and have been for years.

Now that I've finished a big project I have more time to devote to TDI's, and GTG's, shows, etc. Right now, I'm at SEMA in Vegas again this year, and I've made all the trips to Europe for business for years.

 

[drkblujetta]

Check your PM's

I will help to arrange it, but I need serious people who are willing to work.

 

[LurkerMike]

Stealth, I'm a co owner of kerma and have been for years.

Now that I've finished a big project I have more time to devote to TDI's, and GTG's, shows, etc. Right now, I'm at SEMA in Vegas again this year, and I've made all the trips to Europe for business for years.

What role do you have and what role does Charlie have if you don't mind me asking? (You know, who does what... sales, manager, shop forman, product developer, ect...)

 

[LurkerMike]

On the page of forum categories, it already identifies who the moderator is.

I'm too lazy to memorize it. I assume by your defensive tone that you are a mod then? Really, unless it is under your name, I'm probably not going to remember that you are a mod tomorrow.

Another thing to make crystal clear is that this webpage belongs to Fred. Nobody else. He's the one who owns the forum software and makes this space available. It is HIS. It is not YOURS. You (and me) are guests here.

Yes, but Fred can't be all things to all people all of the time. I'd bet that Fred EXPECTS the constantly evolving community of people to work out most of the problems and crap amongst ourselves and not constantly plague him with the details.

Keep in mind that if you add moderators, everyone has their own interpretation of the rules. If you want absolutely consistent application of the rules then there can only be ONE moderator

Maybe you could have one "Lead" or "Senior" moderator that is responsible for hearing complaints and making decisions about appeals and charges against other mods. A moderator supervisor if you will, who will impose his or her guidelines on all of the other mods for better standardization.

We already ban members for rules violations. The infuriating thing is when people play games to see where the lines in the sand are. Some people get very good at stopping juuuuust short of crossing the line... That implies that sometimes people are going to push it. It's going to happen. I am not going to transform myself into a dictator to try to stop it.

My observation is that it the lines seem to be in different places in different areas. Often I have posted in threads that became locked without a clear explanation. I have never gotten a PM here that I recall, that warned me about where the line was as I have on other sites so I am often wondering exactly where I stand. Is some of the humor I try to flavor some of my posts with too risqué? Or is some of my sarcasm seriously offending someone? In other words, exactly what role did I play in a thread becoming locked? Did I alone cause the lock or did I play only a minor role or no role at all? The lock line is blurry to me and made of shifting sand. I would usually stop short of crossing it if I knew where it was located on a given day.

Regarding moderator actions, I can only speak for my own. Making actions identified - I already do that but only to the person involved in the infraction. This creates its own problems. Certain immature people go crying out that I only complained about them but not about someone else - not realizing or acknowledging that perhaps such actions WERE taken. Likewise with the progressive discipline thing ... I try to do this, but when immature crybabies are involved, they somehow find out that the other party wasn't punished as severely (because they acted maturely, edited their own posts, and apologized in private) and then I get blasted by the crybaby (who doesn't take adequate responsibility for their actions and as a result ends up with more actions taken against them). I am not referring to any specific incident here ... it happens ALL the time.

I'm totally cool with you then.

However there are other mods that I do have complaints about as to what I have seen and heard they did to others (not to me so the info is somewhat second hand and one-sided). Besides there being no clear process and the fact that I have no "behind the scenes" friends or allies, I fear retaliation for even suggesting that a specific mod is not doing such a good job.

This is not the Supreme Court of Canada.

Regarding unfair punishment / retaliation / appeals etc, you are making the situation out to be far more complex, labour-intensive and time-consuming than it can ever be in practice.

I thought this is how all things are done in Canada?

Besides, I more of an idea guy. Doing the actual work is what other people are supposed to be doing for me...

 

[VailPowder]

What role do you have and what role does Charlie have if you don't mind me asking? (You know, who does what... sales, manager, shop forman, product developer, ect...)

Probably a bit too much private business info, and like any small business every business owner wears many hats.

 

[greengeeker]

You guys have NO IDEA how much stuff happens in the background. 90+% of my activity is spam control.

The general consensus I'm getting from the mods is that they are overloaded. If it is true that 90% of your time is spent on spam control, why couldn't spam mods be created to take care of this simple task? Only give them the power to delete reported spam - those familiar with the forum software will know if this is feasible.

mrchill, you have a PM.

 

[mrchill]

Hey Paul.....is yours a sombreo?